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 Law or Grace? |
sheepdogandy |
I preached on this very topic yesterday morning.
If you are interested, you can hear it for yourself.
Just go to the web site listed below and click on the sermons tab. 
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Charles A. Hutchins
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Congregational Church of God
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3/5/18 11:54 am
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| Re: Law or Grace? |
Cojak |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | I preached on this very topic yesterday morning.
If you are interested, you can hear it for yourself.
Just go to the web site listed below and click on the sermons tab. |
 
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3/5/18 12:07 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
🤔 Shalom, I have finally listened to ur teaching sheepdogandy, & just wanted to point something's out. U used the verse John 1:17, u emphasized the word "but" Grace & Truth... Andy, that word "but" was placed there by man
Another thing was u spoke about the great silence between Old & New Testaments, which is True, but did the prophet Malachi say before this "great silence"? Mal 4:4; Remember You The Law (Torah/Instructions) of Moses My servant, which "I" Commanded unto him in Horeb for ALL Y'srael with Statutes and Judgements
What was the point of Y'shua fulfilling the Law so u could eat a ham sandwich everyday? What was the purpose, so u could fill ur belly with what G-d calls an abomination? I now u read that as ur going through the Bible. U say Y'shua fulfilled the Law of "G-d", Y'shua is G-d, or are there 2 doing 2 different things? Do u believe He is G-d, the Great I Am, from Everlasting to Everlasting, the 1st & the last etc? Because if u do (u should) ur sermon is ur sermon, G-d had no part, that's not who He is....
U talk about how it's the Spirit who gives *life*, & that's True, He is the Living Word/Torah which has *life* to those that keep it Dt 30:19-20. The Law is "Spiritual" Rom 7:14, His Spirit will "lead" *us* "into" ALL Truth, Truth is His Torah😋
I have many other things to discuss with u, but I will leave on this note: in ur good news section with ur faith statement, u used Isa 7:9;.... If you will not believe, surely you shall not be "established" & then u give 3 great Webster's definitions for "establish"....
Rom 3:31; do we then make void the Law through faith? G-d forbid yes, we "establish" the Law😉.
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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3/8/18 11:30 pm
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sheepdogandy |
OK now share the rest of it.
In context please.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
3/9/18 12:06 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | OK now share the rest of it.
In context please. |
Andy, believe me I can, but that's not the purpose. Just the few things I pointed out, & that was in the beginning, shouldn't concern u, doesn't it? Doesn't that bother u that ur not telling people total Truth' Way about the L-rd? Do ur history, in the Book of Acts they were known as the people of the "Way". John the Baptist, prepare you the "Way"....'6
There is a "*way*" that "*seems*" right unto man but in the end thereof are the "*ways*" of death Prov 14:12.... Please, repent, seek the L-rd & His Righteousness & u shall be filled. Don't be one sheppard's with ear tickling messages 2 Tim 4:3
Jer 3:15; & I will give you pastors according to *"My*" heart, which shall feed you with the Knowledge and Understanding. Thats all the Book of Prov, example chapters 1-4... Knowledge & Understanding of G-ds Torah which are His Instructions for Life Dt 30:19-20, which is His heart Jer 3:15 + all of Ps 119. According to Jewish understanding the heart of YHVH is the Torah
Notice that G-d says He's going to "give you" Shepherds according to "His" heart not according to your heart, ur knowledge & understanding. G-d always works through His sheppard's that speaks of His heart
There are of course sheppard's that are not of His heart, & u unfortunately have that responsibility to figure out which is right, in all the text of the Bible, not according to the last preacher sermons and denominational standards
That's the shepherd's responsibility, to give Knowledge and Understanding of G-ds heart, Ways, His Torah. His shepherds are Torah teachers, now with the faith in Y'shua to live like He did
& U never answered it, & u don't have to, but I want u to think about what the question I gave you about why would Y'shua deliver you from the food Laws, what was the purpose of Him delivering you from abomination of pigs that you can eat it now? Or what was the purpose of changing the Sabbath day, u keep sunday?
Can talk all day on this message, because it deals with the heart. Back in Jeremiah's Days, Old Testament days, there was a lot of rebellion no one wanted to hear their message, or Moshes message or the apostles message of keeping Torah.....
I pray G-d will open our hearts, to see something that has been replaced, and we need to repent and come back, restore to the ancient paths that have been lost Isa 58:12
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/9/18 4:16 am
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sheepdogandy |
Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
15 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Touchdown \o/
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
3/9/18 11:36 am
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Da Sheik |
| It’s so sad. Proponents of the law point to all of the Old Testament heroes of the faith. Reading Hebrews chapter 11 is very clear. All of those heroes of the OT looked forward to our day . “Moshe†and Abraham and all of the rest longed for the age of grace. Also, can we please dispense with using this type of language ? If you’re going to speak Hebrew then type your whole post in Hebrew, not just selected names. No need to speak Spanglish here. |
Acts Enthusiast
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3/9/18 11:38 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | It’s so sad. Proponents of the law point to all of the Old Testament heroes of the faith. Reading Hebrews chapter 11 is very clear. All of those heroes of the OT looked forward to our day . |
I agree. I would like to talk more about the Third Use of the Law on this forum, and I have some threads I'd like to post on that subject. I think it's an excellent topic for Christians to discuss. But that topic is discussed in and through Christ.
All I ever see in Isa 58:12's posts is "Moshe" and the Torah. I never see anything about Jesus, except as someone whose work enabled us to access the real grace in "Moshe" and the Torah. It is tragic and sad.
The Law is holy and good, but as with everything else, it can only be approached and understood through Christ. It seems Isa 58:12 would prefer we understand Christ through "Moshe" and the Torah. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/9/18 12:06 pm
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Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | It’s so sad. Proponents of the law point to all of the Old Testament heroes of the faith. Reading Hebrews chapter 11 is very clear. All of those heroes of the OT looked forward to our day . “Moshe†and Abraham and all of the rest longed for the age of grace. Also, can we please dispense with using this type of language ? If you’re going to speak Hebrew then type your whole post in Hebrew, not just selected names. No need to speak Spanglish here. |
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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3/9/18 3:50 pm
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Cojak |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | | It’s so sad. Proponents of the law point to all of the Old Testament heroes of the faith. Reading Hebrews chapter 11 is very clear. All of those heroes of the OT looked forward to our day . |
I agree. I would like to talk more about the Third Use of the Law on this forum, and I have some threads I'd like to post on that subject. I think it's an excellent topic for Christians to discuss. But that topic is discussed in and through Christ.
All I ever see in Isa 58:12's posts is "Moshe" and the Torah. I never see anything about Jesus, except as someone whose work enabled us to access the real grace in "Moshe" and the Torah. It is tragic and sad.
The Law is holy and good, but as with everything else, it can only be approached and understood through Christ. It seems Isa 58:12 would prefer we understand Christ through "Moshe" and the Torah. |
Lots here that would bless the soul of man thru Christ. Good DD
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
3/9/18 3:52 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Galatians 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?
15 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Touchdown \o/ |
Foul!!, Ur off sides sheepdog  this is not speaking u don't have to keep Torah, this is a conversation of the religious Jews doctrine that a Gentile had to become Jewish. Pharisaic concept was the Pharisees handed down to the people certain observances from the father's which the Law Moshe never wrote, and the Pharisees put yolks and bondages on people Rom 15:10
Gal 2:4-5 says there were "false Brethren" that came in....Paul had been chosen to preach the "Gospel" to the Gentiles vs 7, & Peter was chosen to preach the "Gospel" to the Jews vs 8. Notice it's the same Gospel, same Message as John the Baptist & Y'shua. The gentiles didn't get a different Gospel 😋
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
Last edited by Isa 58:12 on 3/10/18 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/9/18 8:58 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Da Sheik wrote: | | It’s so sad. Proponents of the law point to all of the Old Testament heroes of the faith. Reading Hebrews chapter 11 is very clear. All of those heroes of the OT looked forward to our day . |
I agree. I would like to talk more about the Third Use of the Law on this forum, and I have some threads I'd like to post on that subject. I think it's an excellent topic for Christians to discuss. But that topic is discussed in and through Christ.
All I ever see in Isa 58:12's posts is "Moshe" and the Torah. I never see anything about Jesus, except as someone whose work enabled us to access the real grace in "Moshe" and the Torah. It is tragic and sad.
The Law is holy and good, but as with everything else, it can only be approached and understood through Christ. It seems Isa 58:12 would prefer we understand Christ through "Moshe" and the Torah. |
Well dave, discuss it then. But remember that I already told u that ur gonna have to let go of something's u have learned to understand G-ds Ways, Laws, Instructions. Are u willing to do that? Because if u don't it won't be beneficial to anyone. Btw, no one said anything von what I said to sheepdog, did I say something wrong?
& Dave, u won't understand what Y'shua says or who He is without the Torah. John 5:46-47; "if" you believed Moshe/Torah, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me, but if you *don't believe* what he wrote,. ??how?? Will *you* believe what I say????
Good question ðŸ˜
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/9/18 9:08 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
It doesn't seem like you actually have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, so it's difficult to see what value could be gained from discussion.
If I asked you to articulate the gospel to me, what would you say? Keep it as simple and straightforward as you can. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/10/18 5:13 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
It doesn't seem like you actually have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, so it's difficult to see what value could be gained from discussion.
If I asked you to articulate the gospel to me, what would you say? Keep it as simple and straightforward as you can. |
How can I not have a saving relationship with Y'shua when I'm doing what He asked in John 14:15; if you love Me keep my Commandments. & And how many is that as He is G-d?, all of them 😉. But not for Salvation just as Messiah didn't keep it for Salvation....
It's really not hard, you're making it harder than it really is & ur missing it. Law & Grace are One, They go together, if there is no Law there is no need of Grace, and since there is Law there's Grace. It's when we break G-d's Law's/Commandments and ask for forgiveness in repentance the Grace of G-d covers us and forgives us in that "sin" of breaking Laws/Torah/Instructions
Now sheepdog, if u study out Law and Grace in that mindset of the Bible you would have an awesome lesson to help people in their walk with the L-rd 😉😇
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/10/18 2:59 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | How can I not have a saving relationship with Y'shua when I'm doing what He asked in John 14:15; |
Wow... words fail.
I missed the articulation of the gospel in your post. Can you tell me the gospel? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/10/18 5:38 pm
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| Question for Isa 58:12 |
Dean Steenburgh |
Isa 58:12 can you assist me by answering the following:
Maybe I've missed this along the way but can you explain why you never spell out the name of God or Lord ...etc??
I see that you spell G-d but you never spell it out the way we've seen it in the traditional American understanding of how the bible spells it.
Do you claim to be a Messianic Jew?
Are you a follower of Jesus as your personal Messiah?
Thx, Dean
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"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
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Posts: 4682
3/10/18 6:15 pm
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sheepdogandy |
Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Two point conversion.......it's GOOOOOOOD! \o/
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Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God
www.spwc.church |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
3/10/18 6:26 pm
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| Re: Question for Isa 58:12 |
Isa 58:12 |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | Isa 58:12 can you assist me by answering the following:
Maybe I've missed this along the way but can you explain why you never spell out the name of God or Lord ...etc??
I see that you spell G-d but you never spell it out the way we've seen it in the traditional American understanding of how the bible spells it.
Do you claim to be a Messianic Jew?
Are you a follower of Jesus as your personal Messiah?
Thx, Dean |
I have always done it when I gave my life 2 the L-rd in 2000 in baptism, but really in the hospital in 1998. I was writing to someone about the Bible I think in 1999, I had in the background a preacher who talked about how the Jews put the dash in G-d as not to profane it. Now I now G-d is not His Name, but loved that sort of dedication to G-d & wanted to have the same for the One that saved me & I just have done it ever since. It's like I have done it as a child...
Yes 😋
&
Yes 😇
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/10/18 11:41 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| sheepdogandy wrote: | Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 "None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Two point conversion.......it's GOOOOOOOD! \o/ |
Flag on the play, false start! Heb 8 is speaking of the High Priest has changed vs 1-5, vs 6 is speaking of Messiah has a more excellent ministry, He is our High Priest now, He is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better "promises", not better Laws.
Btw, the New Covenant is to Y'sreal & Y'udah, not according to the 1st one.... I will give u a better Promise right now from G-d in the New Covenant. In the 1st Covenant Commanded that they write the Laws on their hearts. Dt 11:18,22,*13*, Prov 3:3, 6:1, 7:3, Ex 13:9. In the New, Heb 8, Jer 31, Ezek 11:19-20 which we do & keep G-d's Torah from our hearts 😉
Btw, when a gentile/stranger first part took of his first Passover, he was now as one born in the land (Rom 11;17) and one Torah was to him Ex 12:48-49. Num 15:15-16; One Ordnance shall be both for you of the congregation, and *also* for the stranger/gentile that sojourners with you, an Ordnance **forever** in your ""generations"" as you are, so shall the stranger/gentile be *before* the L-rd vs 16; One Law/Torah and one manager shall be for you, and *for* the stranger/gentile that sojourns with you
Game over, Glory be to G-d!!
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
3/11/18 12:21 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| So... you gonna articulate the gospel, or nah? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
3/11/18 7:25 am
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