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 The Proper Use of the Law |
Dave Dorsey |
Welp, we've had some adventures here on both extremes of this conversation, but I thought it might be interesting to start a conversation about the proper use of the Law (meaning the moral law; not the civil or ceremonial law) for believers who are saved by grace and justified by faith.
We can hopefully identify two extreme positions from the outset:
1) People regenerated by believing in the gospel are saved primarily so that they can be enabled to keep all parts of the Law of Moses
2) The Law has no purpose for believers and offers no commands to believers
This thread presumes that the Law does have purpose for believers and does offer them commands, yet presumes that this purpose and these commands are not the primary focus of redemption. If you hold one of these views, please participate within the bounds of these presumptions.
Teaching concerning the distinction of Law and Gospel dates to the earliest conversations of the Reformation, with a recognition of the extreme difficulty of properly distinguishing and using the two. Luther said, "Hence, whoever knows well this art of distinguishing between Law and Gospel, him place at the head and call him a doctor of Holy Scripture." Nevertheless, we do have some thought on the background of the Law and its use.
The Formula of Concord describes three uses:
1) That "thereby outward discipline might be maintained against wild, disobedient men [and that wild and intractable men might be restrained, as though by certain bars]"
2) That "men thereby may be led to the knowledge of their sins"
3) That "after they are regenerate ... they might ... have a fixed rule according to which they are to regulate and direct their whole life"
Confessional Lutheranism teaches these three uses of the law as Curb, Mirror, and Guide.
The Reformed view holds to the use of the law as well, with Berkhof calling the Law and the gospel "two parts of the Word of God as a means of grace".
Calvin had a similar view:
1) "[W]hile it shows God's righteousness..., it warns, informs, convicts, and lastly condemns, every man of his own unrighteousness" (2.7.6).
2) It functions "by fear of punishment to restrain certain men who are untouched by any care for what is just and right unless compelled by hearing the dire threats in the law" (2.7.10).
3) "It admonishes believers and urges them on in well-doing" (2.7.12-13).
The Scriptural basis for the arguments can be found in the Book of Concord and Institutes of the Christian Religion.
So with that said, what say you? What is the proper way to handle Law and Gospel as New Testament believers? What purpose does the Law serve for those who have been saved by grace and justified by faith? Where is the line of orthodoxy between anitnomianism and nomism or legalism? |
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Posts: 13654
3/2/18 1:19 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NET
My understanding is in essential agreement with the Reformers which you have cited. I would only add that in my view, it is all about the work of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, as we live, love, breathe, sit, walk, and stand in Him, that we are truly empowered and transformed from the heart to fulfill the law of Christ (or, the moral law, aka God’s love law). It is not merely keeping Commandments as a list of dos and don’ts, in my view. One keeps God’s commands because of the love of God which has been poured out abundantly in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, not because one just decides to keep them in one’s own strength of resolve.
From what I recall, Calvin taught that sanctification was about progressively increasingly being personally conformed to the Ten Commandments. I would not agree with that, no matter who may have said it. I don’t view the Ten Commandments, as a unit, as being the moral law, as in my view, the moral law is everlastingly binding upon all moral agents, in every covenant. In my view, the moral law is summed up in the Two Greatest Commandments as stated by Jesus. Nine of the Ten Commands are applications of the moral law, all except the Sabbath command, since the Sabbath command is not taught in the New Testament as binding upon New Covenant believers in particular, nor on Gentiles in general. |
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Posts: 12807
3/2/18 5:48 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
Uh Oh, you boys done done it now. You done brought Calvin into the conversation.  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
3/2/18 6:09 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
QW, great thoughts. I agree. My PC is off right now due to a storm, but I'll share some more on my view when I can.
OTCP, of course we know that Wesley taught basically the same thing and was a fierce opponent of antinomians. But I was typing this post while on a break at work so I didn't have time to get to everyone. 😠|
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Posts: 13654
3/2/18 6:14 pm
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| I welcome this opportunity for discussion of The Torah |
Mark Ledbetter |
| Quote: | "The Torah is first and foremost a religious book. It is for this reason that any discussion about it is bound to stir emotions, both positive
and negative." ~ Rabbi Avigdor Boncek (Bonchek, Avigdor, Studying the Torah, Jason Aronson Inc: Northvale, New Jersey (1996), 17.) |
Torah
| Quote: | "For it is not an idle word for you, indeed it is your life."
~ Moshe, Deuteronomy 32:47 |
This is a fundamental truth embraced by Jews in the 1st-century as well as today. For Israel, the "10 Words" spoken at Sinai Torah were not "empty or worthless" words, but it is Israel's life. Torah provided Israel with identity, direction, and purpose.
By the 1st-century, however, another development influenced the importance of the Torah, one that is either not understood or ignored when addressing any discussion on the Torah, an issue that is at the heart of the debate regarding "works of righteousness" and the meaning of being "under law."
There were two traditions touted by the Pharisees, the dominant religious group, one Jesus confronted and one the Apostle Paul was not only aware of but was a rising star among the Pharisees.
Jewish tradition refers to the Written Torah as Torah Sh'Bichtav - "the sacred Scriptures" (kara kodesh, γÏαμματα οιδας, see 2 Timothy 3:15). Yet, Jewish tradition also has a second Torah that is believed to be delivered by Moshe to subsequent generations - Torah Sh'B'al Peh, or The Oral Torah. It is this latter tradition that proves to be a source of controversy.
It would seem that 613 commandments would be more than plenty of details to which the Hebrew could give his attention. Yet, it seems giving attention to the numerous commandments was not enough. We find in The Ethics of the Fathers it is recorded:
| Quote: | | Moses received the Torah on Sinai, and delivered it over to Joshua, Joshua delivered it over to the elders, the elders to the prophets, and the prophets delivered it to the men of the great gathering together. They said three things: "Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah." ~ Avot 1.1 (emphasis added) |
The "fence" in question includes the many interpretations and applications, the determination of what was to be considered clean or unclean, what was permitted and not permitted. The idea is to build a fence around the commandment that keeps the individual from breaking that commandment. With each succeeding teacher, another layer, or tradition was added.
Eventually, the Oral Torah replaced the Written Torah in value because it explained the original. The authority of the teachers also increased until their decrees became Torah. It is easy to understand how that by the 1st Century, the dominate view regarding Judaism was that it was burdensome.
It is evident by the Apostle Paul's words that he abandoned the Oral Tradition. In 2 Timothy 3:15-17 he writes,
| Quote: | | "and that from a childhood [Timothy] you have known the sacred writings [Torah Sh'Bichtav] which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." |
In 1st Timothy the Apostle writes, "But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully."
It is true the Apostle Paul had a harsh view of the Torah in Romans 7 and Galatians, but he had equally high esteem for the Torah. I will address this paradox in a subsequent post.
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Posts: 2109
3/2/18 8:28 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Thanks for your post and participation, Mark. I'm looking forward to the discussion as well. I think many Protestants -- myself definitely included -- err toward antinomianism in their efforts to affirm and defend the Gospel. But this was not the case with the Reformers, who opposed the antinomians as strongly as they opposed the legalists.
We ought to be vigorous opponents of legalism and calls to obey the Law for righteousness, but that doesn't mean the Law isn't holy and righteous and good, and it doesn't mean the Law doesn't have value and benefit for those who are in Christ.
I affirm the third use of the Law as described by the Reformers: the use of the Law as Guide.
I see Christ as the fulfillment of the Law in two ways: first, His keeping and fulfilling of the Law for us; and now, His keeping and fulfilling of the Law in us.
I'll add some more later today. |
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Posts: 13654
3/3/18 3:01 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Getting back to the topic...
I visited a PCA church with a friend several months ago, and really enjoyed the service. They had a portion in their liturgy dedicated to the reading of the Law, and they read Deuteronomy 5:16-21. This was followed by a few minutes of silence and reflection, and then a proclamation of assurance of pardon (basically absolution, but that word tends to be avoided because of its historic Catholic use) from a text I don't recall.
It was a really powerful moment of reflection on God's holiness, our inability and weakness, and Christ's mercy and grace. During the moments of reflection, I became aware of a way I was committing the sin of covetousness. I pondered on it as I reflected on God's law and repented of my sin, and then joyfully received mercy and pardon. My feeling afterward was not that I needed to "do better", but that I had received mercy and been forgiven. I didn't leave with a good work to do, but with a conscious dependence on Christ concerning a particular area of iniquity. |
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Posts: 13654
3/4/18 8:05 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Brad, this is not the thread for this conversation. I have asked you politely to respect my intention that this thread work from the basis that both Law and Gospel are to be preached today. If you would like to take issue with that presumption, please do so in another thread.
I have split off those posts for your convenience. |
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Posts: 13654
3/4/18 8:10 am
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bradfreeman |
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Dave Dorsey |
Getting back to the topic again...
I really like this from Michael Horton:
| Quote: | The Law is good, but we are not. The Law commands, but cannot give. It tells us what must be done, but helping us get it done is simply not in the Law’s job description. It condemns us for violation, but cannot exercise clemency for violators.
But once the Law’s legitimate claim against us is satisfied, the gospel and the law conspire together to give us both grace and direction for our Christian life, in relation to God and our neighbors. Having fulfilled the Law as well as having borne its wrath in our place, “canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands†by “nailing it to the cross†(Col. 2:14), we who were dead in sins are now made alive. Baptized into Christ’s death and resurrection, we now “put on†the “new self†(Col. 3:1–17). As Jeremiah 31 made so clear already, the new covenant is effective because it rests on indicatives, not imperatives; on gospel, not law; on promises, not commands. Notice that I didn’t say the new covenant dispenses with imperatives, laws, or commands, but merely that it is not based on them. God has done in Christ what the Law could not do in us. In Christ, God not only finds the perfect substitute for our sins but the fulfiller of all righteousness on our behalf. We are not only forgiven, but are accounted as those who have perfectly fulfilled God’s moral will in thought, word, and deed. |
I think preaching this particular aspect correctly is one of the hardest things any minister has to do! |
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Posts: 13654
3/4/18 8:18 am
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| The proper use of the Law... |
Isa 58:12 |
Well, let's understand what the Gospel is 1st. The Gospel is that the Kingdom of G-d is still hand, & with that Y'shua says "repent"... This 1st, in the NT can be seen with John the Baptist Matt 3, Mk 1:1-4; 3; the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare you the Way of the L-rd, make His path straight(Matt 7:13-14) 4; John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of *repentance* for the remission of sins Acts 13:24
Y'shua picks up this "same" message in Matt 4:17, Mk 1:14; now after John was put in prison, Y'shua came to Galilee preaching the "Gospel" of the Kingdom of G-d 15 and saying, the time is *fulfilled*, and the Kingdom of G-d is at hand "*repent*" you and *believe* the "Gospel". What's the Gospel?, repentance, stop breaking the Kings Rules for this Kingdom is here. Mk 1:2; as it is written in the prophets, behold I send my Messenger (Ex23:29-21, Isa 42:19)before your face which shall prepare your Way before you. Not a new Way
What was His disciples message? Mk 6:12; and they went out and preach that men should *repent*, that's the same message Acts 2:38; then Peter said unto them *repent*, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Y'shua HaMashiach for the "remission of sins", and you shall receive the Holy Ghost. 3:19; *Repent* you therefore "&" be "**Converted**", that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come before the presence of the L-rd
About the Law, just start in Rom 7:7; what shall we say then, is the Law sin? God forbid, no, I had not *known* sin but by the Law....
We sin when we break G-ds Commandments, Laws, Instructions, that's why we need to follow the Gospel of repentance that Y'shua & the apostles preached on, it's also all throughout the Old Testament. Read the 13 Attributes of G-d as I Was preparing this on a separate piece of paper it was so long and all surrounded the 13 Attributes of G-d in the Torah
Torah is hitting the mark, sin is missing the mark
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Posts: 2547
3/4/18 10:31 am
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Isa 58:12 |
Is that it dave, r u done?
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
3/4/18 9:38 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Yes, I think so. You and especially Brad have made it very clear to me that I will not be allowed to have even a single thread on this topic without you two coming in here and taking it over to advocate your specific viewpoints, even though your views (without making any other comment on their validity or correctness) are specifically outside the bounds of what I wanted to discuss, and even though I specifically asked that those viewpoints not be expressed in this thread since they have been expressed in pages and pages and pages of other threads.
I wanted to try to give posters here a chance to discuss the middle of the road between you and Brad, but you both have made it crystal clear to me that that will not be acceptable. So yes, I think I'm done. |
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Posts: 13654
3/5/18 7:23 am
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Isa 58:12 |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: |
Yes, I think so. You and especially Brad have made it very clear to me that I will not be allowed to have even a single thread on this topic without you two coming in here and taking it over to advocate your specific viewpoints, even though your views (without making any other comment on their validity or correctness) are specifically outside the bounds of what I wanted to discuss, and even though I specifically asked that those viewpoints not be expressed in this thread since they have been expressed in pages and pages and pages of other threads.
I wanted to try to give posters here a chance to discuss the middle of the road between you and Brad, but you both have made it crystal clear to me that that will not be acceptable. So yes, I think I'm done. |
Well that's sad, I thought I was answering "ur" topic. U didn't say it was 4 others, if u would have sent me a message saying so, no problem. I hope u continue this thread, I won't come back, this is something u need to be solid on. How long will you be hesitant on two opinions.... If the L-rd follow Him, but if baal and follow him1 Kings 18:21
May Adonai speak clearly in this thread for u all in Y'shua's Name amein
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
3/5/18 1:00 pm
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