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 For "Isa 58:12"... |
Tom Sterbens |
This post is NOT in the spirit of my current random satirical sniping from the bleachers  .
AND...
Given that years ago you and I engaged on the same point/topic of engagement, unto no clear end... I am not seeking to re-engage...
But as I have perused to exchange in the version 2.0 exchange largely between you and Brad...I have had a thought. SO...please don't assume where I am headed with the following question...there is no "Gotcha!" for which I am setting you up. I just think I may be hearing something in your words I may have missed...
So...can you tell me how you see where how the message/reality of "The Kingdom of God" fitting into or informing your theological world-view??
Thanks |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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2/20/18 10:49 am
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| Re: For "Isa 58:12"... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | This post is NOT in the spirit of my current random satirical sniping from the bleachers .
AND...
Given that years ago you and I engaged on the same point/topic of engagement, unto no clear end... I am not seeking to re-engage...
But as I have perused to exchange in the version 2.0 exchange largely between you and Brad...I have had a thought. SO...please don't assume where I am headed with the following question...there is no "Gotcha!" for which I am setting you up. I just think I may be hearing something in your words I may have missed...
So...can you tell me how you see where how the message/reality of "The Kingdom of God" fitting into or informing your theological world-view??
Thanks |
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Why thank you, I remember talking to you, I enjoyed it, I don't remember your sarcasm, I may suffer from that too ðŸ˜. 🤔 Kingdom of G-d, let me tell you a little about how I believe we're supposed to live by the Kingdom Rule's in His Torah/Teachings/Instructions, there wouldn't be so much junk in the world, denominations, etc
I live a Messianic life style & it can be a challenge, but I love how Gal 2:20 says it; with Messiah I have been crucified, and no more do I live, but Messiah lives in me, and that which I now live in the Body, I live in the faith of the Son of G-d, who loved me and gave Himself for me. So try to live my life for Him & like Him.
That is a gigantic Truth of a Messianic life, living by the Kings Instructions/Teachings/Laws. Luke 17:21; neither shall I say, Lo here or Lo there behold the Kingdom of G-d is within "you". His Laws are written on our hearts Jer 31:33, & it is the Torah. Num 15:16; One Law/Torah and one manor shall be for you (Jew), and for the stranger/Gentile that's sojourns with you. This is our family, the Kings Way.
Living by His Kingdom Rules is the Foundational of Truth in who Messiah is (John 5:46-47), He's our King who's coming to set up His Kingdom & Rule from the New Jerusalem 😀. What do u think that will look like?😉
But I love being a disciple of Y'shua, it is a life grounded in Y'shua & grounded in His Word. When we " think" & act contrary to who Messiah is, we r living contrary to who we are. I try to live,/disciple/copy how the Master lived, thought, walked, ate, etc, like He did. In my life, if it doesn't line up with the life of Messiah and the Word of G-d, I flush it
If we remain in opposition to the Word, living according to our own desires and ways of doing things, we will be hindered in our ability to become the effective disciples of Messiah that we were made to be, we were made in His image Gen 1:27😮. That's not the Kings Way.
If we (Col 3:3-4) are to truly be Messiahs disciples, this is the life we must choose today, a life that is totally and completely sold out to the Master, a life wholeheartedly devoted to Y'shua & His Torah, Way. Matt 3:3, 4:17
Every believer and you sure is called to be a disciple of Messiah, 8 disciples more than just a student, he follows the way of his master so that you would become(Matt 10:24-25) just like Him.
Bottom line, & believe me, I haven't even cracked my knuckles to get started, this sort of topic can't really be discussed shortly. That's why mine and your conversations in the past went on so long 😀😇
But living by the Kingdom Principles, the Word/Torah, the Word of G-d can change our lives "if" we will accept its Authority and "do it". we will be walking in the Spirit, living by the Word. But only faith in the Messiah Y'shua can sin in the flesh be condemned and the Torahs Righteous requirements be fulfilled
I Love Y'shua, Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey, I love His Torah, the Kingdom Rules & i love Y'srael & the Jewish people, I'm fellow citizens with them Eph 2:19-20. 😇. I hope I answered something here for you LOL
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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2/20/18 10:45 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
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Isa 58:12 |
🤔, Please don't be offended Tom, but nothing resonated with me. It's not the gospel of Atonement, it's the gospel of repentance that brings Atonement. There was no mention of repentance in the article. Or how to really live for G-d in His Kingdom by living by His Commandments
I think the guy said it right in the article about the man that wanted to divorce his wife because he was in love with another wife, and the Pastor said you can't do that, and the man said yeah I can you said Jesus forgive me my sins He died on the cross or something like that. And the man said there was really no answer for that or something like that. I would have to read the article again
But that's what I'm saying, if there's no such Standard to live by, G-d's Laws, then anything goes. Back when I was on a long time ago and now, there are threads talking about churches closing down, disturbing things, gay pastors, etc, & that's the only thing that can happen when you throw out G-d's Law's and think they don't apply to you today
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
Last edited by Isa 58:12 on 2/21/18 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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2/21/18 12:08 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: |
🤔, Please don't be offended Tom, but nothing resonated with me. It's not the gospel of Atonement, it's the gospel of repentance that brings Atonement. There was no mention of repentance in the article. Or how to really live for G-d in His Kingdom by living by His Commandments
I think the guy said it right in the article about the man that wanted to divorce his wife because he was in love with another wife, and the Pastor said you can't do that, and the man said yeah I can you said Jesus forgive me my sins He died on the cross or something like that. And the man said there was really no answer for that or something like that. I would have to read the article again |
Actually that is the point of the whole interview...
Dallas Willard was a passionate advocate that a "Gospel of Atonement" is what is being preached today when the "Gospel of the Kingdom" is what Jesus preached...and the "Gospel of Atonement" alone leaves us a gospel that "hopefully" can get us to heaven but will do nothing to alter how we live (That is my paraphrase/summary).
Here is a quote...check it out:
| Quote: | “The way it practically works out is this, if you have the Gospel of the Atonement, and that’s all you’ve heard, the rest of your life you will run on your own and you may or may not think of being a disciple of Jesus or of obeying him or of devoting your life to the Kingdom of God. You can still do that, but those things are all optional for you. That is where we really stand in our Christian culture today. Anything more than forgiveness of sins, and by that I mean ‘Heaven when you die’, is optional and most of our professed believers now do not know that they can live in the Kingdom of God now.
“By contrast, anyone who is alive in the Kingdom of God now knows that their sins are forgiven because they have the life of Heaven in them now. So Heaven and forgiveness are natural parts of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God whereas discipleship and holiness and power and other scriptural evidences are not a natural part of the Gospel of the Atonement. I want to emphasize that sense of being a natural part. |
BTW - as stated in my original post, there is no "trick" here or some hidden "gotcha" you are being set up for. As I've been reading what you've written in several threads I am hearing you state clearly that you don't "get saved" or "stay saved" by reason of the Law (my paraphrase)...so then I started trying to hear the "applied faith" you are talking about. Further - since our last encounters years ago - I have written some things on worship and how the 10 commandments we a call to true worth (worth-ship) and the strongest warning where worth (worth-ship) would not be found. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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2/21/18 8:33 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Tom -- same caveats, no agenda, no nothing, just curious about your thoughts.
Do you think those who receive the gospel of atonement become genuinely regenerated?
That is to say, if one is genuinely regenerated and recreated by the Holy Spirit, are the desires associated with the gospel of the Kingdom not necessary and natural productions of that regenerate heart? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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2/21/18 10:57 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Tom -- same caveats, no agenda, no nothing, just curious about your thoughts.
Do you think those who receive the gospel of atonement become genuinely regenerated?
That is to say, if one is genuinely regenerated and recreated by the Holy Spirit, are the desires associated with the gospel of the Kingdom not necessary and natural productions of that regenerate heart? |
Dave,
Not to "parse words"...
But the longer I live and the more I study scripture the more concerned I am about the use of terms like "genuine" or "authentic" or whatever, when discussing matters of embraced faith. Here's my problem:
On the one hand I think we have reduced the "salvation experience prayer" to something more akin to a type of spiritual Harry Potter incantation. You know, "Repeat these words after me and you are magically..."saved."
Then on the other hand there seems to be a tribe of "salvation Nazi's" that offer no validation of salvation whatsoever without an attending witness of altered behavior - and the listing of that behavior is very different depending on who you ask.
So.....with respect to the conversation at hand, "When does regeneration genuinely happen?" Or..."Does the 'Gospel of Atonement' provide the spiritual substance for genuine regeneration?" I don't know... And the reason I don't is both on the part of the listener/respondent and on the part of the preacher/presenter of the Gospel of Atonement...and then, who is it that decides a gospel presentation has just crossed the threshold of becoming a "Gospel of Atonement" message.
As I have written elsewhere...
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | It is my prayer that my passionate commitment to God's Word does not ever degenerate into an insensitive religious bludgeon of personal agenda…but I also pray my genuine love for people, and sensitivity to their pain, does not ever neutralize the forthright redemptive declaration of the power and promise of God's word! |
Short answer to your question: "I don't know." |
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Posts: 4507
2/21/18 12:15 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Short answer to your question: "I don't know." |
Thanks for the answer. That makes two of us. I think the evidence of transformation should be evident over the long trajectory of a person's life if genuine repentance and salvation has taken place, but on any smaller timescale, it is very difficult to say.
Over the last several years I have been floating toward more reformed soteriology, and that has resulted in a lot of meditation and consternation on this topic. I now view regeneration as a monergistic singular event that results, on its own, in the bearing of fruit, and so I'd say as a matter of theology that only people who truly receive the gospel of the Kingdom and bear fruit in accordance with the nature of that regenerated life are saved. But show me 10 people and ask me to point out the ones for whom that is true? Can't do it. And so as a matter of orthopraxy we have to wrestle through the kind of stuff you mention, and the only answer for any of it is "I don't know, so I might as well treat everyone with love and continue to proclaim the gospel to them all, myself first and foremost." |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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2/21/18 12:23 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Short answer to your question: "I don't know." |
Thanks for the answer. That makes two of us. I think the evidence of transformation should be evident over the long trajectory of a person's life if genuine repentance and salvation has taken place, but on any smaller timescale, it is very difficult to say.
Over the last several years I have been floating toward more reformed soteriology, and that has resulted in a lot of meditation and consternation on this topic. I now view regeneration as a monergistic singular event that results, on its own, in the bearing of fruit, and so I'd say as a matter of theology that only people who truly receive the gospel of the Kingdom and bear fruit in accordance with the nature of that regenerated life are saved. But show me 10 people and ask me to point out the ones for whom that is true? Can't do it. And so as a matter of orthopraxy we have to wrestle through the kind of stuff you mention, and the only answer for any of it is "I don't know, so I might as well treat everyone with love and continue to proclaim the gospel to them all, myself first and foremost." |
Amen!
And as quickly as I think I may have formulated something defined and anywhere near "air tight"...then I am brought face to face with the whole "thief on the cross" reality. That one sort of blows everything up...not to mention Cornelius in Acts 10...blah, blah, blah... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
2/21/18 1:37 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: |
🤔, Please don't be offended Tom, but nothing resonated with me. It's not the gospel of Atonement, it's the gospel of repentance that brings Atonement. There was no mention of repentance in the article. Or how to really live for G-d in His Kingdom by living by His Commandments
I think the guy said it right in the article about the man that wanted to divorce his wife because he was in love with another wife, and the Pastor said you can't do that, and the man said yeah I can you said Jesus forgive me my sins He died on the cross or something like that. And the man said there was really no answer for that or something like that. I would have to read the article again |
Actually that is the point of the whole interview...
Dallas Willard was a passionate advocate that a "Gospel of Atonement" is what is being preached today when the "Gospel of the Kingdom" is what Jesus preached...and the "Gospel of Atonement" alone leaves us a gospel that "hopefully" can get us to heaven but will do nothing to alter how we live (That is my paraphrase/summary).
Here is a quote...check it out:
| Quote: | “The way it practically works out is this, if you have the Gospel of the Atonement, and that’s all you’ve heard, the rest of your life you will run on your own and you may or may not think of being a disciple of Jesus or of obeying him or of devoting your life to the Kingdom of God. You can still do that, but those things are all optional for you. That is where we really stand in our Christian culture today. Anything more than forgiveness of sins, and by that I mean ‘Heaven when you die’, is optional and most of our professed believers now do not know that they can live in the Kingdom of God now.
“By contrast, anyone who is alive in the Kingdom of God now knows that their sins are forgiven because they have the life of Heaven in them now. So Heaven and forgiveness are natural parts of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God whereas discipleship and holiness and power and other scriptural evidences are not a natural part of the Gospel of the Atonement. I want to emphasize that sense of being a natural part. |
BTW - as stated in my original post, there is no "trick" here or some hidden "gotcha" you are being set up for. As I've been reading what you've written in several threads I am hearing you state clearly that you don't "get saved" or "stay saved" by reason of the Law (my paraphrase)...so then I started trying to hear the "applied faith" you are talking about. Further - since our last encounters years ago - I have written some things on worship and how the 10 commandments we a call to true worth (worth-ship) and the strongest warning where worth (worth-ship) would not be found. |
Right, we're not saved by the Law, and the Law doesn't save us, we keep G-d's Law's/Instructions/Teachings because we're saved. So give me a summary of what you learn from me and brad's discussions, I'm interested. & I'm curious to know what you were writing
& Did I answer something's for you or do you need more on ur above topic?
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/21/18 3:48 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: |
Did I answer something's for you or do you need more on ur above topic?
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To some extent...
I still feel you may be on the sort of similar track that Dallas Willard was (for many years). His assertion, in different books, was essentially our faith changes our behavior - and "Yes," I am aware that sounds incredibly elementary.
To that end you are essentially saying the same thing.
Although I would argue over what I feel is the unnecessary "Jewishness" of Messianic Christians - nonetheless I feel broadly and generally you are pressing for a similar functionality of expressed faith. And if people want to serve Jesus and wear yarmulkas, sing three-chord songs in a minor key and clap on 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4,.....then rock on!
I think the biggest danger of an over-appropriated Gospel of the Kingdom is the possibility of some sort of legalism. But the danger of NOT pursuing that is that we would degenerate to a place where grace is seen as frosting for our sin-cupcakes instead of a dynamic force that pushes back and "over-bounds" against sin!
Thanks for the dialog... |
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Posts: 4507
2/21/18 5:28 pm
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| The Gospel of the Kingdom of God |
Mark Ledbetter |
My primary focus is upon Matthew's Gospel, perhaps the most Jewish of the Four, with John a very, very close second only from a different perspective.
The Gospel of the Kingdom was introduced first by John the Baptist and then taken up by Jesus (Matthew 3:2, then Jesus 4:17, 23, then again 9:35). The preeminence of the Kingdom Message continued through Chapter 11:11-12, but Chapter 12 represents a subtle shift in the Kingdom's presentation.
Prior to Chapter 12 the Message of the Kingdom was accompanied by miracles, healings, etc., but then in Chapter 13, Jesus began to present the Kingdom in parables, and contrary Jesus presented the message in parables not to make them easy to understand but more difficult (see Matthew 13:10f).
What happened in Matthew 12? When the common people questioned if Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of David, the Pharisees present accused Jesus of being in league with Satan, a charge they earlier lodged against Him to discredit the Kingdom Movement (9:34).
This context provided Jesus with the opportunity to warn His detractors of their "sin" with their lips, including blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that their words would indeed condemn them. In response, they asked Jesus for a sign.
The "Sign of Jonah", the first intimation of His death and resurrection was presented, anticipating what would eventually take place in Jerusalem during their season of Redemption - Passover.
The Kingdom is reintroduced in Matthew 24 and now Kingdom Fulfillment will take place at His Return.
Such a message is relevant for today and in Mark's words: "...The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel" (1:15).
Further, it worth noting the Kingdom of God is a major theme found in the Acts of the Apostles. Jesus, for 40 days prior to His ascension spoke, "of the things concerning the kingdom of God" (1:3).
It was included in Philip's efforts at Samaria (8:12)
And it was part of Paul's message as well: 14:22; 19:8; 28:23.
The sovereign rule of God in the hearts and lives of men was seen as a legitimate claim of the Gospel, one requiring submission to God's authority and to His word (Acts 6:7)
The paramount expression of our love for Jesus is our obedience to keep His commandments.
It is vital to understand the nature and impact of the New Covenant, a New Law (or Torah, Hebrews 8:6, one that, according to the Prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel writes upon our hearts. Through the Holy Spirit we are enable to understand and walk in the "spirit of the Torah" and the Prophets.
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2/21/18 8:33 pm
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| Re: The Gospel of the Kingdom of God |
Isa 58:12 |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | My primary focus is upon Matthew's Gospel, perhaps the most Jewish of the Four, with John a very, very close second only from a different perspective.
The Gospel of the Kingdom was introduced first by John the Baptist and then taken up by Jesus (Matthew 3:2, then Jesus 4:17, 23, then again 9:35). The preeminence of the Kingdom Message continued through Chapter 11:11-12, but Chapter 12 represents a subtle shift in the Kingdom's presentation.
Prior to Chapter 12 the Message of the Kingdom was accompanied by miracles, healings, etc., but then in Chapter 13, Jesus began to present the Kingdom in parables, and contrary Jesus presented the message in parables not to make them easy to understand but more difficult (see Matthew 13:10f).
What happened in Matthew 12? When the common people questioned if Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of David, the Pharisees present accused Jesus of being in league with Satan, a charge they earlier lodged against Him to discredit the Kingdom Movement (9:34).
This context provided Jesus with the opportunity to warn His detractors of their "sin" with their lips, including blaspheming the Holy Spirit and that their words would indeed condemn them. In response, they asked Jesus for a sign.
The "Sign of Jonah", the first intimation of His death and resurrection was presented, anticipating what would eventually take place in Jerusalem during their season of Redemption - Passover.
The Kingdom is reintroduced in Matthew 24 and now Kingdom Fulfillment will take place at His Return.
Such a message is relevant for today and in Mark's words: "...The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel" (1:15).
Further, it worth noting the Kingdom of God is a major theme found in the Acts of the Apostles. Jesus, for 40 days prior to His ascension spoke, "of the things concerning the kingdom of God" (1:3).
It was included in Philip's efforts at Samaria (8:12)
And it was part of Paul's message as well: 14:22; 19:8; 28:23.
The sovereign rule of God in the hearts and lives of men was seen as a legitimate claim of the Gospel, one requiring submission to God's authority and to His word (Acts 6:7)
The paramount expression of our love for Jesus is our obedience to keep His commandments.
It is vital to understand the nature and impact of the New Covenant, a New Law (or Torah, Hebrews 8:6, one that, according to the Prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel writes upon our hearts. Through the Holy Spirit we are enable to understand and walk in the "spirit of the Torah" and the Prophets. |
Amein
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/21/18 10:06 pm
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| Re: The Gospel of the Kingdom of God |
bradfreeman |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | | The sovereign rule of God in the hearts and lives of men was seen as a legitimate claim of the Gospel, one requiring submission to God's authority and to His word (Acts 6:7) |
Acts 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
| Quote: | | The paramount expression of our love for Jesus is our obedience to keep His commandments. |
This is where Ike and I see things differently. I believe John's take on what Jesus commandments were:
1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
To believe and love.
This jives with being "obedient to the faith." These Acts 6 priests were, no doubt, already observing the law.
If the command is to believe, my obedience is faith.
| Quote: | | Through the Holy Spirit we are enable to understand and walk in the "spirit of the Torah" and the Prophets. |
Rom 13:9 and Gal 5:14 indicate that walking in the "spirit of the Torah" is quite simply walking in love. The new commandment selfless love that is born in us is superior than the law's commandment to love as you "love yourself."
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My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
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2/22/18 7:01 am
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Tom Sterbens |
To "Isa 58:12" - Please do not take my lighthearted reference to "songs in a minor key, yarmulkas, etc." (written above) as anything other than a lighthearted reference to a particular worship emphasis. I should have written similar references to other strains of worship emphasis, classical Pentecostal, etc. - which would have balanced the assertion somewhat.
Although this thread may simply morph into another one similar to two or three other active threads, that was not my intent. As stated, I was not so much interested in another thread of theological head-butting as I was in understanding where you were come from, from an applied or sort of "orthopraxy" standpoint.
I still think what you are after is perhaps similar to what Dallas Willard (whom I enjoy immensely) is after - in terms of a measurable expression of our faith. On the other hand, also as stated - I do think there is always a danger of some measure of legalism when form becomes anywhere near as significant as function.
Thanks for the dialog - sincerely. I'll leave you guys to continue "the other" discussion. |
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Posts: 4507
2/22/18 9:49 am
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bradfreeman |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Although this thread may simply morph into another one similar to two or three other active threads, that was not my intent. |
Apologies, I was happy to stay off this thread and will to avoid the morph. Mark's take the on the Acts 16:7 phrase "obedient to the faith" just raised my eyebrows.
Anyhoo, I won't engage Ike on this thread, I'm enjoying the read and we have plenty of other opportunities to attempt discussion.
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My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
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2/22/18 1:51 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | To "Isa 58:12" - Please do not take my lighthearted reference to "songs in a minor key, yarmulkas, etc." (written above) as anything other than a lighthearted reference to a particular worship emphasis. I should have written similar references to other strains of worship emphasis, classical Pentecostal, etc. - which would have balanced the assertion somewhat.
Although this thread may simply morph into another one similar to two or three other active threads, that was not my intent. As stated, I was not so much interested in another thread of theological head-butting as I was in understanding where you were come from, from an applied or sort of "orthopraxy" standpoint.
I still think what you are after is perhaps similar to what Dallas Willard (whom I enjoy immensely) is after - in terms of a measurable expression of our faith. On the other hand, also as stated - I do think there is always a danger of some measure of legalism when form becomes anywhere near as significant as function.
Thanks for the dialog - sincerely. I'll leave you guys to continue "the other" discussion. |
Ur fine my friend, nothing said bothered me LOL, I didn't even notice that there's a problem anything you said LOL. But you're right about the danger of legalism creeping in, because every religion has legalism in it. Just look at all the church rules & traditions that are bound up on people.
That's why it's important to know what G-d said & just keep ,His Torah His Commandments like Y'shua *did" that's not legalism at all, or Y'shua libed a very legalistic lifestyle that we have to follow, ridiculous
It's the life our Creator desires for His set apart from the world people/us to live in. Can man pervert it, sure, as men perverts everything else, look @ history
Shalom, I have enjoyed this conversation 😉
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
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Posts: 2547
2/22/18 2:19 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | To "Isa 58:12" - Please do not take my lighthearted reference to "songs in a minor key, yarmulkas, etc." (written above) as anything other than a lighthearted reference to a particular worship emphasis. I should have written similar references to other strains of worship emphasis, classical Pentecostal, etc. - which would have balanced the assertion somewhat.
Although this thread may simply morph into another one similar to two or three other active threads, that was not my intent. As stated, I was not so much interested in another thread of theological head-butting as I was in understanding where you were come from, from an applied or sort of "orthopraxy" standpoint.
I still think what you are after is perhaps similar to what Dallas Willard (whom I enjoy immensely) is after - in terms of a measurable expression of our faith. On the other hand, also as stated - I do think there is always a danger of some measure of legalism when form becomes anywhere near as significant as function.
Thanks for the dialog - sincerely. I'll leave you guys to continue "the other" discussion. |
Ur fine my friend, nothing said bothered me LOL, I didn't even notice that there's a problem anything you said LOL. But you're right about the danger of legalism creeping in, because every religion has legalism in it. Just look at all the church rules & traditions that are bound up on people.
That's why it's important to know what G-d said & just keep ,His Torah His Commandments like Y'shua *did" that's not legalism at all, or Y'shua libed a very legalistic lifestyle that we have to follow, ridiculous
It's the life our Creator desires for His set apart from the world people/us to live in. Can man pervert it, sure, as men perverts everything else, look @ history
Shalom, I have enjoyed this conversation 😉 |
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2/22/18 3:39 pm
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