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Which of the 613 OT laws are "binding?"
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Post Which of the 613 OT laws are "binding?" bradfreeman
This question is answered in numerous places throughout the NT. Here are a 3:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Clearly, we are not under law. So, one might say that Paul doesn't specify what he means by "law." But he does just a few verses later.

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

What "law" have we died to?
What "law" have we been released from?
We have been release from the Law:
a. That said "You shall not covet;"
b. That is holy, righteous and good;
c. That is spiritual.

Paul isn't talking about one part of the law in Rom 7:4-7 and another in Rom 7:712-16.
If he was, he forgot to tell anyone. He uses the same Greek root "nomos" throughout Romans 6 and 7 every time he references the law - the same Greek word John used in John 1:17 when he said "the Law was given through Moses."

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.


Abraham had 2 wives.
Paul says these 2 wives are 2 covenants.
Hagar is Mt. Sinai.
    Hagar is not laws that the Jews added to Torah after Mt. Sinai.
    Hagar is the covenant given on Mt. Sinai.

So the question becomes - Is Hagar binding?
    Hagar is a bondwoman.
    She produces bondage (being bound) - from the Greek "douleian" = bondage.

Paul says the scripture says to cast out the bondwoman and her son.
    This means we cast out the covenant given on Mt. Sinai.
    This means we cast out the bondage.
    This means we are free.
    This means we are not bound by the law that binds.

Paul exhorts us to stand fast in this freedom and not to come back under the yoke of slavery - from the Greek "douleian" = bondage.

So, none of the old covenant laws produce bondage for us. They are not binding and we are not bound by any of them.

We are under new laws that produce freedom not bondage.

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Post Re: Which of the 613 OT laws are "binding?" Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
This question is answered in numerous places throughout the NT. Here are a 3:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Clearly, we are not under law. So, one might say that Paul doesn't specify what he means by "law." But he does just a few verses later.

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

What "law" have we died to?
What "law" have we been released from?
We have been release from the Law:
a. That said "You shall not covet;"
b. That is holy, righteous and good;
c. That is spiritual.

Paul isn't talking about one part of the law in Rom 7:4-7 and another in Rom 7:712-16.
If he was, he forgot to tell anyone. He uses the same Greek root "nomos" throughout Romans 6 and 7 every time he references the law - the same Greek word John used in John 1:17 when he said "the Law was given through Moses."

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.


Abraham had 2 wives.
Paul says these 2 wives are 2 covenants.
Hagar is Mt. Sinai.
    Hagar is not laws that the Jews added to Torah after Mt. Sinai.
    Hagar is the covenant given on Mt. Sinai.

So the question becomes - Is Hagar binding?
    Hagar is a bondwoman.
    She produces bondage (being bound) - from the Greek "douleian" = bondage.

Paul says the scripture says to cast out the bondwoman and her son.
    This means we cast out the covenant given on Mt. Sinai.
    This means we cast out the bondage.
    This means we are free.
    This means we are not bound by the law that binds.

Paul exhorts us to stand fast in this freedom and not to come back under the yoke of slavery - from the Greek "douleian" = bondage.

So, none of the old covenant laws produce bondage for us. They are not binding and we are not bound by any of them.

We are under new laws that produce freedom not bondage.


.brad, you forgot the law of sin and death Romans 8:2 which all the verses you describe r speaking of except the two wives in Gal and I've already explained that to you in another thread

This is a good thread, I hope u stick to it & not go off on Side Tracks. But I didn't tell you to try to use New Testament to Define The Binding of Laws, I told you to pull out the Laws in the Torah, the Old Testament and show me they r binding 😉. U know what I said 😉
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Post Re: Which of the 613 OT laws are "binding?" bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
.brad, you forgot the law of sin and death Romans 8:2 which all the verses you describe r speaking of except the two wives in Gal and I've already explained that to you in another thread

This is a good thread, this is stick to it it's not go off on Side Tracks. But I didn't tell you to try to use New Testament Define The Binding laws, I told you to pull out the Laws in the Torah, the Old Testament and showing their binding 😉. U know what I said 😉


The 613 old covenant laws are the Romans 8:2 law of sin and death.

It is the law of sin.

    Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

    1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

It is the law of death.

    Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

    2 Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It is the law given on Mt. Sinai.

The law that all of the verses are talking about is the law given on Mt. Sinai, the law engraved on stones, the law that came with glory on Moses face and the law that said "you shall not covet."

It is a law that cannot produce life.

Gal 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The law that cannot impart life is:
    The law that is not contrary to God's promises;
    The law that shut up everyone under sin;
    The law that was our tutor to lead us to Christ.

This is the law that we are no longer under.

Righteousness is based on faith because the law is unable to impart life.
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Post Isa 58:12
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇
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Post Resident Skeptic
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


There are indeed some works of the flesh we abstain from under the New Covenant that were also forbidden under the Law of Moses. Paul lists them in Galatians. But these similarities are incidental. We are not saved because we abstain from these things. Rather, the grace that saves us teaches us to deny those ungodly and worldly lusts through the indwelling power of the Spirit.

I can also see some similarities between the Articles of Confederation and the current Constitution, but I do not cite the AoC as a law that I am under.
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Post bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


ALL of the law given on Mt. Sinai was binding on the Jews.
They were in bondage. They were born of Hagar, the bondwoman, who is Mt. Sinai - born of the flesh.

NONE of the law given on Mt. Sinai is binding on us.
We are free. We are born of Sarah, born of the Spirit, born of the promise -
the Jerusalem which is from above is free, she is our mother.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.


None of who we are is born of Mt. Sinai, Hagar, bondage.
We are free from that yoke of bondage, born of a promise kept by God and believed by us, born of the Spirit by believing what we heard (see gal 3:1-13).
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Post What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Mat
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.

Mat
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Post Isa 58:12
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


There are indeed some works of the flesh we abstain from under the New Covenant that were also forbidden under the Law of Moses. Paul lists them in Galatians. But these similarities are incidental. We are not saved because we abstain from these things. Rather, the grace that saves us teaches us to deny those ungodly and worldly lusts through the indwelling power of the Spirit.

I can also see some similarities between the Articles of Confederation nd the current Constitution, but I do not cite the AoC as a law that I am under.


Ok skeptic, ur right about the Constitution, I was going to use that at some point but now I don't have to LOL. & as I have always said the Law will not save you, we keep G-d's Laws because we're saved. & In Messiah Y'shua, when we "sin" (breaking His Laws) it's His Grace that covers & forgives. Grace & Law go together, you can't have one without the other you can't have Grace without law you can't have love without Grace

ShabBAT Shalom
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Isa 58:12
Mat wrote:
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.

Mat


& Which r those. Please, show me what Y'shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT
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Post Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


ALL of the law given on Mt. Sinai was binding on the Jews.
They were in bondage. They were born of Hagar, the bondwoman, who is Mt. Sinai - born of the flesh.

NONE of the law given on Mt. Sinai is binding on us.
We are free. We are born of Sarah, born of the Spirit, born of the promise -
the Jerusalem which is from above is free, she is our mother.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.


None of who we are is born of Mt. Sinai, Hagar, bondage.
We are free from that yoke of bondage, born of a promise kept by God and believed by us, born of the Spirit by believing what we heard (see gal 3:1-13).


No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that's how you see G-d?

Now pull some Laws for the "Jews", and show me why the bondage
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Post bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


ALL of the law given on Mt. Sinai was binding on the Jews.
They were in bondage. They were born of Hagar, the bondwoman, who is Mt. Sinai - born of the flesh.

NONE of the law given on Mt. Sinai is binding on us.
We are free. We are born of Sarah, born of the Spirit, born of the promise -
the Jerusalem which is from above is free, she is our mother.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.


None of who we are is born of Mt. Sinai, Hagar, bondage.
We are free from that yoke of bondage, born of a promise kept by God and believed by us, born of the Spirit by believing what we heard (see gal 3:1-13).


No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that's how you see G-d?

Now pull some Laws for the "Jews", and show me why the bondage


The Law was simply an impossible standard.
The Law was simply an unbearable yoke.
Because of our inability to keep it, the was was weak and useless to make anyone perfect.

IMPOSSIBLE:

Mat 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Why did they ask: "If a rich man can hardly be saved, then who can be saved?"
Because the rich were "the blessed" according to Deut 28. They had to have kept all of the commands to get the wealth they enjoy (See Mat 19:16-22 - "all these things I have kept").

But Jesus says it is impossible to enter the kingdom this way. No one finds life or blessing under the Law - only a curse (Gal 3:10).

UNBEARABLE:

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”...10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Mat 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Jesus doesn't hang the unbearable yoke of the Law around our necks, but the easy yoke of grace.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Mat
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Mat wrote:
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.

Mat


& Which r those. Please, show me what Y'shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT



Matthew 24
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.

Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews.

It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God's will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an "add-on" to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, "the blind leading the blind" and I will not be bound by the words of a "want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish" who is no jew.

There is only one who can save, and it ain't Moses. Is that clear enough.

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Post Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
I c ur not ready to do this yet brad, I thought for sure u would have found some Laws in the Torah that r binding by now. Get dave & james to help u, james has a great insight to Jewish things, he could help u out 😉

ShabBAT Shaloooooooom 😇


ALL of the law given on Mt. Sinai was binding on the Jews.
They were in bondage. They were born of Hagar, the bondwoman, who is Mt. Sinai - born of the flesh.

NONE of the law given on Mt. Sinai is binding on us.
We are free. We are born of Sarah, born of the Spirit, born of the promise -
the Jerusalem which is from above is free, she is our mother.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.


None of who we are is born of Mt. Sinai, Hagar, bondage.
We are free from that yoke of bondage, born of a promise kept by God and believed by us, born of the Spirit by believing what we heard (see gal 3:1-13).


No brad, Jews & gentiles were there & the giving of the Torah/Law Ex 12:38. And I already explained to you Galatians 4. So your view is G-d gave the Jews after took them out of slavery a bunch of Laws to bind them down and put them in bondage, is that right, that's how you see G-d?

Now pull some Laws for the "Jews", and show me why the bondage


The Law was simply an impossible standard.
The Law was simply an unbearable yoke.
Because of our inability to keep it, the was was weak and useless to make anyone perfect.

IMPOSSIBLE:

Mat 19:23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Why did they ask: "If a rich man can hardly be saved, then who can be saved?"
Because the rich were "the blessed" according to Deut 28. They had to have kept all of the commands to get the wealth they enjoy (See Mat 19:16-22 - "all these things I have kept").

But Jesus says it is impossible to enter the kingdom this way. No one finds life or blessing under the Law - only a curse (Gal 3:10).

UNBEARABLE:

Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”...10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Mat 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Jesus doesn't hang the unbearable yoke of the Law around our necks, but the easy yoke of grace.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.


brad!, this is not true, of anything u say here, & it's frightening 😶. This is how u see G-d who is Y'shua who gave the Instructions/Laws/Torah & saying it's it's an impossible standard which makes G-d a liar in Deut 30:11-14 that says G-d has given what is necessary to keep His Commandments,/Laws/Instructions.

U say His Laws are an unbearable yoke, & that thought is taken from Acts 15:10 which again you misinterpret, that is speaking of the Pharisees laws & u say that "are" inability to keep it is the reason why it was weak. But see it's not the Law that was weak it was he flesh, rebellion, read that verse again brad. Ps 18:30 says it's Perfect, Ps 19:7, Heb 7:19; the law made nothing perfect...., That's not its purpose. It's G-ds Way of Life for His called out ones🙂

You using the rich man does not help your case, it's not talking about keeping the law or not keeping it, it is talking about keeping your possessions& u bring up Matt 19:16-22 as ur point, & u missed it. Verse 17 Y'shua says; why call you me good? There is none good but One, that is G-d, but "if" you will enter into life (Deut 30:19), KEEP the Commandments/Laws/ Instructions..... Then Y'shua goes into a list, but look some missing, 1 from the last half

Using Acts 15 again which is understood in the 1st verse u typed, 5; but there are rows up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed Saying, that it was needful to circumcise the Gentiles and commanded (to b saved, vs 1) to keep the law of Moshe, the Torah doesn't command that. That's the unbearable yoke put on the Gentiles in verse 10 that the disciples nor their fathers had to bear

Matt 11:28 happens to be the Sabbath prayer, come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest Shabbat Exodus 33:13-14 take my yoke upon you and learn of Me... What is written at this time to learn of Him when there is no N T? Verse 30; My "yoke" is easy & My burden is Light Ps 119:105

Let's go of that nonsensical doctrine brad, as I show you every time it does not work, & you never address the things I say the scriptures. But thank you for kind of making these a little smaller, LOL they're getting smaller
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Isa 58:12
Mat wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Mat wrote:
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.

Mat


& Which r those. Please, show me what Y'shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT



Matthew 24
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.

Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews.

It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God's will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an "add-on" to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, "the blind leading the blind" and I will not be bound by the words of a "want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish" who is no jew.

There is only one who can save, and it ain't Moses. Is that clear enough.

Mat


Do people here struggle from anti-Semitism or something? Matt you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry this is totally incorrect. The destruction of the temple is because they defiled it, think about that in the New Testament, you understand what I'm saying

The destruction of the Temple, was not the destruction of the Law, Feasts, Sabbath, etc.....
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Do people hear struggle from anti-Semitism or something? Matt you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry this is totally incorrect. The destruction of the temple is because they defiled it, think about that in the New Testament, you understand what I'm saying

The destruction of the Temple, was not the destruction of the Law, Feasts, Sabbath, etc.....


I'm not teaching replacement theology. I'm teaching placement theology. All, Jew and Gentile, were placed in Christ at the cross. Those who believe, receive new life born in them through this message, this incorruptible seed.

There are those who call themselves Jews because they are born in a certain family in the flesh, but they are not Jews.

John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children...30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”


Rev 2:9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Which city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt? Jerusalem, where the Lord was crucified.
What does Hagar correspond to? Jerusalem.
Where is Hagar from? Egypt.

Jesus ended the fleshly separation between Jew and Gentile when He made out of two, one new man by drawing Jew and Gentile unto Himself at the cross and by removing the Law that distinguished between Jew and Gentile. Now there is neither Jew or Gentile, just believer and unbeliever.

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Do people hear struggle from anti-Semitism or something? Matt you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry this is totally incorrect. The destruction of the temple is because they defiled it, think about that in the New Testament, you understand what I'm saying

The destruction of the Temple, was not the destruction of the Law, Feasts, Sabbath, etc.....


I'm not teaching replacement theology. I'm teaching placement theology. All, Jew and Gentile, were placed in Christ at the cross. Those who believe, receive new life born in them through this message, this incorruptible seed.

There are those who call themselves Jews because they are born in a certain family in the flesh, but they are not Jews.

John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children...30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”


Rev 2:9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Which city is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt? Jerusalem, where the Lord was crucified.
What does Hagar correspond to? Jerusalem.
Where is Hagar from? Egypt.

Jesus ended the fleshly separation between Jew and Gentile when He made out of two, one new man by drawing Jew and Gentile unto Himself at the cross and by removing the Law that distinguished between Jew and Gentile. Now there is neither Jew or Gentile, just believer and unbeliever.

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity


You know brad, this is your thread🙄, the topic is what Old Testament laws are binding and the answer is.. then you hijack your own thread LOL and don't even follow it😕. Ur supposed to pull out Commandments / Law's out of the Torah and show me that their binding, you're not doing that😒. You're trying to use the New Testament to understand your statement and it's ridiculous. The verses that you are using correspond to Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it 😕.

Put out some Old Testament Law's😮
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
You know brad, this is your thread🙄, the topic is what Old Testament laws are binding and the answer is..


NONE

Quote:
The verses that you are using correspond to Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it 😕.

Put out some Old Testament Law's😮


What Law was given on Mt. Sinai?
Was the Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it given on Mt. Sinai?
What covenant was given on Mt. Sinai?

Feel free to pull out some OT law, any of them. My answer will be the same. The OT law has nothing to say about my New Covenant righteousness, blessing or life.
ALL of that is freely given to me by faith in Christ.

I am not a slave, working for my master's blessing.
I am a son, an heir and joint-heir with Christ.
That means whatever Jesus has, I have.
Jesus isn't working for righteousness, blessing or life. He is seated at rest in His Father's joy.
I am seated together with Him.
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
You know brad, this is your thread🙄, the topic is what Old Testament laws are binding and the answer is..


NONE

Quote:
The verses that you are using correspond to Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it 😕.

Put out some Old Testament Law's😮


What Law was given on Mt. Sinai?
Was the Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it given on Mt. Sinai?
What covenant was given on Mt. Sinai?

Feel free to pull out some OT law, any of them. My answer will be the same. The OT law has nothing to say about my New Covenant righteousness, blessing or life.
ALL of that is freely given to me by faith in Christ.

I am not a slave, working for my master's blessing.
I am a son, an heir and joint-heir with Christ.
That means whatever Jesus has, I have.
Jesus isn't working for righteousness, blessing or life. He is seated at rest in His Father's joy.
I am seated together with Him.


Ok brad, then we're done, ur free from this conversation, u can go enjoy "your" new covenant. & Yes, Torah was given @Mt Sinai, but then man perverted it & changed into a works base program "Hagar" instead by faith, Sarah. G-ds Laws have always been by faith, is the faith in Him to keep his Commandments out of love

You're stuck on the Pharisees interpretation of the Laws, instead of what G-d said. I have given u ample examples of this & u were silent. But that's fine all those scriptures r still in your Bible, you just got to go figure it out in prayer to G-d, because you theology has holes in it and contradictions

And you're right not a slave, ur supposed to be a son, & son's obey their father. If u have children u should understand this concept. Heb 12:6; because the L-rd disciplines the ones He loves, and chastens everyone He accepts as a son. And I'm sure you understand the prodigal son that did not listen to his Father.... Our Father has a Way to live by faith. Heb 4:2; For unto us this gospel is preached, as well as unto them, but the Word preach to them was "unprofitable", "not" "being" *mixed* "with" *faith* by then that heard it....

You gotta understand what you're reading brad, read Prov chapters 3&4
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Resident Skeptic
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Mat wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Mat wrote:
What OT laws are binding? The answer is whatever Jesus and the Apostles gave us as commandments in the New Testament.

Mat


& Which r those. Please, show me what Y'shua said against the Torah/Law in the NT



Matthew 24
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

No Temple, no altar, no Holy of Holies, no morning sacrifice, no evening sacrifice, no table and bread, no lamp, no oil no light, no priesthood or levites , no feast, no prayers and no need for going to Jerusalem to be saved.

Jesus did not come to bring us under the Law or to lead us to the Law. The Jews were a chosen people to provide the Messiah for the world, the Messiah did not come to make us all Jews.

It took the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem), which was God's will, to demonstrate that Christianity is not just an "add-on" to the Law and Jewish culture. Some remain unconvinced to this day. As a nation, the Jews rejected the Messiah. Why, because God allowed them to be spiritually blind (as Paul said, to this day they have the covering of Moses over their eyes). I will not become as Jesus said, "the blind leading the blind" and I will not be bound by the words of a "want-to-be-playing-at-being-jewish" who is no jew.

There is only one who can save, and it ain't Moses. Is that clear enough.

Mat


Do people here struggle from anti-Semitism or something? Matt you have no idea what you're talking about I'm sorry this is totally incorrect. The destruction of the temple is because they defiled it, think about that in the New Testament, you understand what I'm saying

The destruction of the Temple, was not the destruction of the Law, Feasts, Sabbath, etc.....


Anyone who resorts to playing the "anti-Semite" card should be ignored.
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Post Re: What OT laws are binding? The answer is ... Resident Skeptic
Isa 58:12 wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
You know brad, this is your thread🙄, the topic is what Old Testament laws are binding and the answer is..


NONE

Quote:
The verses that you are using correspond to Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it 😕.

Put out some Old Testament Law's😮


What Law was given on Mt. Sinai?
Was the Pharisees interpretation of the law and how to do it given on Mt. Sinai?
What covenant was given on Mt. Sinai?

Feel free to pull out some OT law, any of them. My answer will be the same. The OT law has nothing to say about my New Covenant righteousness, blessing or life.
ALL of that is freely given to me by faith in Christ.

I am not a slave, working for my master's blessing.
I am a son, an heir and joint-heir with Christ.
That means whatever Jesus has, I have.
Jesus isn't working for righteousness, blessing or life. He is seated at rest in His Father's joy.
I am seated together with Him.


Ok brad, then we're done, ur free from this conversation, u can go enjoy "your" new covenant. & Yes, Torah was given @Mt Sinai, but then man perverted it & changed into a works base program "Hagar" instead by faith, Sarah. G-ds Laws have always been by faith, is the faith in Him to keep his Commandments out of love

You're stuck on the Pharisees interpretation of the Laws, instead of what G-d said. I have given u ample examples of this & u were silent. But that's fine all those scriptures r still in your Bible, you just got to go figure it out in prayer to G-d, because you theology has holes in it and contradictions

And you're right not a slave, ur supposed to be a son, & son's obey their father. If u have children u should understand this concept. Heb 12:6; because the L-rd disciplines the ones He loves, and chastens everyone He accepts as a son. And I'm sure you understand the prodigal son that did not listen to his Father.... Our Father has a Way to live by faith. Heb 4:2; For unto us this gospel is preached, as well as unto them, but the Word preach to them was "unprofitable", "not" "being" *mixed* "with" *faith* by then that heard it....

You gotta understand what you're reading brad, read Prov chapters 3&4


Should I tithe on what my garden produces? Who should I pay those tithes to?
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