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Isa 58:12 |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | Done. Let the record show you WOULD NOT answer.
What a coward -- unable to answer a simple question about what you so "boldly" proclaim. |
Did you call me a coward dave? Lol, isn't that attacking me, aren't you breaking your own "laws" 🤔 |
But please dave, you see what I'm doing with scriptures and chapters and breaking it down for the true meaning of what is really saying, why don't you use the same scriptures and show me where I'm wrong. & don't forget use all text of the Bible
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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2/5/18 5:51 pm
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| Re: .Dave.... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | Explain to me Matthew chapter 7 21 to 23, maybe I'm just reading it wrong 😶
Shalom |
I brought this from the back page dave so you wouldn't forget, I would like to hear you're your insights on this chapter
So long
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/5/18 5:59 pm
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| Re: You won't get a straight answer |
Resident Skeptic |
| brotherjames wrote: | Her's an excerpt from some of those working to expose this cult, and make no mistake it is a cult - it is neither Christian nor Jewish but an aberrant sect of nonsense trying to appear spiritually above the rest of us. Read the following:
The movement usually hides their beliefs and presents itself as simply seeking to educate Christians concerning their Jewish heritage. As they become acclimated to the Jewish orientation the more aberrant doctrines are slowly introduced.
Some of the warning signs
• All Christians must adhere to a kosher diet
• The Sabbath can only be observed on Saturdays
• The Jewish festivals and holidays must still be observed today
The root of their symptomatic heresies is hermeneutic (having to do with the methodology used to interpret scripture) in nature. The Protestant Reformers used a grammatical-literal hermeneutic when interpreting scripture. In other words, it means what it says unless there is a significant reason to believe otherwise. This movement uses a grammatical-historical hermeneutic with a twist. Their underlying assumptions when approaching any scripture are:
Whatever God has ever commanded of those who seek Him (i.e., the Jews, their ancestors, their descendents, and Christians) is still in effect today (including the Levitical law)
Gentile followers of Christ were "grafted into" the Jews which they interpret to mean that Gentiles must assume Jewish customs if they really want to mature and please God
Like all cults, the Hebrew Roots Movement have their own "version" of the Bible, which of course, is the only version you
are allowed to use.
Based on those unquestionable assumptions, they then decide how they can best interpret a given scripture to support those beliefs. The farther down this rabbit hole they go, the more bizarre their doctrines become. Many see the New Testament as inferior to the Old (or a conspiracy by the Catholic church). More still say that Paul's teachings are contrary to Christ (since they have trouble with his obvious statements against their beliefs) and, therefore, reject his epistles as scripture. Some say that the only reason we aren't still sacrificing animals and stoning people for their sins is because there is no Temple and no Sanhedrin. But when they are restored then these will resume. Others go so far as to eventually reject Jesus as the Messiah and simply say that He was just a Rabbi. The inevitable outcome of following this train of thought is to put people back into bondage to the Law.
The proof is in the Scripture
"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter." Acts 15:5
The issue of how to treat the gentile believers is not a new question in our day, the Apostles themselves dealt with this issue on more than one occasion. Acts 15 shines ample light on not only the question, but the answer as well. As we read in Acts 15, we see the bible "heavyweights" like Paul and Barnabas called on the carpet along with the rest of the apostles to figure this out. And as with most issues in the church, the whole problem started with a small handful of troublemakers:
"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." Acts 15:1
A few bad apples...
Now, we are not told who these troublemakers are, but it was sufficient to throw a monkeywrench into the whole deal:
"When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." Acts 15:2
And deal with it they did..."And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." Acts 15:7-9
They acknowledged that while e gentile does not become a Jew when believing on the Messiah, the line of division between them no longer exists. From God's perspective then, there is no difference between a Jewish and Gentile believer in Christ. But they didn't stop there, they continued on to answer this question in a most resolute and final way.
The Apostles settle this question once and for all
"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them." Acts 15:10-12
Peter is so bold that he stuns them all into silence, and uses this time to allow Paul and Barnabas to recount all the awesome 'miracles and wonders that God had wrought among the Gentiles by them'. Just when you think it can't get any more intense that it already is, James steps in begins to wrap it up:
"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. " Acts 15:13-18
Then, the knockout blow:
"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." Acts 15:19-21
In an amazing display, James through the Holy Spirit, tells us once and for all what God expects from Gentile believers...and it is not to be placed under the Law of Moses. There exists no evidence in the New Testament that mandates that any Gentile believer observe Jewish holidays, eat kosher foods or worship only on the Sabbath day. What was the reaction from the entire assembled group of elders? They said this:
"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." Acts 15:24-29
Did you catch that line? Go back and reread the Apostles themselves saying that they never gave any such commandment for Gentiles to be placed under the Law of Moses. Never. Ever. Do you believe the Bible? Don't take my word for it, look it up and read it for yourself...
The believer in Christ is not called to law, but to freedom in Jesus. And for those who still need further proof, Paul provides it in Galatians 2:
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:11-16
Conclusion
The roots of Christianity grow deep in Jewish culture, and it is highly recommended that all Christians learn about the Jewish feast days, holy days and other customs. They will only deepen our appreciaton and understanding of our common ancestry that we have, Gentiles together with Jews. But to suggest that any Gentile believer who follows Jesus must be placed under Old Testament law is nothing but bondage, and it's a bondage that the Bible speaks against not only in the verses quoted here, but in many other places as well. Regarding the freedom we have in Christ, let me leave you with this verse from the Master himself:
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 |
This ^^^^^.
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"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
2/5/18 6:17 pm
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UncleJD |
| His answer is pretty clearly "yes", you have to obey the laws of Moshe/God to be saved. Can we move on now? This distraction was amusing for about 2 days. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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2/5/18 6:36 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| UncleJD wrote: | | His answer is pretty clearly "yes", you have to obey the laws of Moshe/God to be saved. Can we move on now? This distraction was amusing for about 2 days. |
Agreed. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/5/18 6:56 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| UncleJD wrote: | | His answer is pretty clearly "yes", you have to obey the laws of Moshe/God |
PS 119:165, Great Shalom/Peace ðŸ˜have they which "love" Your "Law" and "nothing" shall offend them. FYI my friends, that's why I don't get upset with you guys😉
But this verse goes against everything you teach, how's that? 🤔
But Ps 119:136, Rivers of waters run down my eyes, because they keep not Your Law 😢
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/5/18 9:18 pm
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Da Sheik |
| It must grieve the heart of God when His children crave the shadow over the substance. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
2/5/18 9:33 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | His answer is pretty clearly "yes", you have to obey the laws of Moshe/God |
PS 119:165, Great Shalom/Peace ðŸ˜have they which "love" Your "Law" and "nothing" shall offend them. FYI my friends, that's why I don't get upset with you guys😉
But this verse goes against everything you teach, how's that? 🤔
But Ps 119:136, Rivers of waters run down my eyes, because they keep not Your Law 😢 |
So is circumcision necessary for salvation?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
2/5/18 9:44 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | UncleJD wrote: | | His answer is pretty clearly "yes", you have to obey the laws of Moshe/God |
PS 119:165, Great Shalom/Peace ðŸ˜have they which "love" Your "Law" and "nothing" shall offend them. FYI my friends, that's why I don't get upset with you guys😉
But this verse goes against everything you teach, how's that? 🤔
But Ps 119:136, Rivers of waters run down my eyes, because they keep not Your Law 😢 |
So is circumcision necessary for salvation? |
Nope
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/5/18 9:52 pm
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Cojak |
Of course Isa has lit up the forum, but for what reason? I am not smart enough to banter uselessly. I shouldn't even respond But I did, since this keeps heading back to the top any way I will make little difference..
I do not think the panel members here need this 'Instruction'. since it isn't constructive if I believe Jesus died on the cross for MY sins. And I must follow HIS WORDS, and the instructions of his Apostles.
It appears Isa is here not to learn, but to teach you (US) ignorant COG people we are wrong. Yes Isa, I think you should be banned from the board, I haven't seen anything constructive you have added, and I think the Lord and even you, know you are not converting this group or shining any light on their Love for our Lord and God. YOu are definitely not here to learn, you know what you are convinced you know, and ignore any other points.
I like the responses by my fellows here RS, BJ, JD. DaSheik, NBF & DD
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24276
2/5/18 10:42 pm
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| Yankin' Your Chain |
spartanfan |
In my opinion this Isaiah guy is pulling one over on you guys. It's probably an account created to actually make the Hebraic Roots movement look stupid. Read his posts - purposely using bad English and making ridiculous statements. Studying and teaching the Pentateuch in its cultural environment is profitable. Look at Al Taylor's book on tithing, "Proving God : Triumphant Living Through Tithing by Al Taylor" and you'll see the value of teaching from the Hebrew perspective. It's a great book that uses the backdrop of Jewish culture and practices to show the important principles behind tithing and putting God first. Al Taylor is very solid in his teaching.
This thread takes the pendulum and swings it way right in criticizing those Jews who are saved and writing books to help us properly teach some of the passages that a background in Hebrew can help with. For the most part the authors (of the best books) are Jewish Baptists. They do not teach adherence to the ceremonial laws and they follow the teachings of Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament. They teach salvation by grace through faith and not by the works of the Law. So the Isaiah 58:12 guy here is probably just saying a bunch of unfounded crazy things that the Hebraic Jews do not agree with and attributing those things to them when many of his comments go against the saved Jewish brethren"s teaching of Jesus as the only way to God in order to ruffle your feathers and get something going on what has become a very inactive (almost dead) discussion board (that only picks up as we get closer to the General Assembly). He's throwing the Messianic Jews under the bus in order to yank y'alls chain and get some discussion going. And you fell for it. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
2/6/18 9:28 am
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| Re: Yankin' Your Chain |
Nature Boy Florida |
| spartanfan wrote: | In my opinion this Isaiah guy is pulling one over on you guys. It's probably an account created to actually make the Hebraic Roots movement look stupid. Read his posts - purposely using bad English and making ridiculous statements. Studying and teaching the Pentateuch in its cultural environment is profitable. Look at Al Taylor's book on tithing, "Proving God : Triumphant Living Through Tithing by Al Taylor" and you'll see the value of teaching from the Hebrew perspective. It's a great book that uses the backdrop of Jewish culture and practices to show the important principles behind tithing and putting God first. Al Taylor is very solid in his teaching.
This thread takes the pendulum and swings it way right in criticizing those Jews who are saved and writing books to help us properly teach some of the passages that a background in Hebrew can help with. For the most part the authors (of the best books) are Jewish Baptists. They do not teach adherence to the ceremonial laws and they follow the teachings of Jesus and the other writers of the New Testament. They teach salvation by grace through faith and not by the works of the Law. So the Isaiah 58:12 guy here is probably just saying a bunch of unfounded crazy things that the Hebraic Jews do not agree with and attributing those things to them when many of his comments go against the saved Jewish brethren"s teaching of Jesus as the only way to God in order to ruffle your feathers and get something going on what has become a very inactive (almost dead) discussion board (that only picks up as we get closer to the General Assembly). He's throwing the Messianic Jews under the bus in order to yank y'alls chain and get some discussion going. And you fell for it. |
Agreed.
Probably a current poster that invented this poster - so they could easily discredit the teaching.
Much the same way I invented Aaron Scott to easily debunk all of his musings... Or perhaps he invented NBF... It's one of the two.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
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2/6/18 10:24 am
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bradfreeman |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | Now, will we go to heaven if we don't keep the Law of Moshe? 🤔.... I think Y'shua sums it up pretty fine in Matt 7: 21-23: "not everyone" that says to me, L-rd L-rd shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, "but he that does the Will" of My Father which is in heaven.
22: "many" will say to me in that day, L-rd L-rd have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?
23: and then I will profess unto them, I never knew you depart me you that work "law"lessness or iniquity
He's talking to Believers here, those the most frightening verses in the Bible I think, and shouldn't be taken so lightly. |
He is talking to Old Covenant Jews. Fortunately, our new covenant solves the 2 problems these Old Covenant Jews had:
1. I never knew you.
2. You that work lawlessness.
Heb. 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.â€
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/6/18 11:13 am
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| Dave Didn't Ask the Question the Right Way |
FG Minister |
Dave - you should have asked whether Isa believes in keeping the Law of Moses by asking this way...
Y-S
or
-O
Maybe he will respond to this question. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 874
2/6/18 11:37 am
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UncleJD |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | Now, will we go to heaven if we don't keep the Law of Moshe? 🤔.... I think Y'shua sums it up pretty fine in Matt 7: 21-23: "not everyone" that says to me, L-rd L-rd shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, "but he that does the Will" of My Father which is in heaven.
22: "many" will say to me in that day, L-rd L-rd have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?
23: and then I will profess unto them, I never knew you depart me you that work "law"lessness or iniquity
He's talking to Believers here, those the most frightening verses in the Bible I think, and shouldn't be taken so lightly. |
He is talking to Old Covenant Jews. Fortunately, our new covenant solves the 2 problems these Old Covenant Jews had:
1. I never knew you.
2. You that work lawlessness.
Heb. 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.â€
|
Amen Brad! |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
2/6/18 11:44 am
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Da Sheik |
| The thought crossed my mind that this has been the work of a parody. But then again, we do have some here with extremely hyperbolic views. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
2/6/18 11:47 am
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Isa 58:12 |
Nope, sorry guys I've always been myself 😉. & brad, I just want to touch on something you said about Y'shua was talking to the "O.T." Jews 🙄, what makes you think that, please back it up. Or are you putting it off because you know who he's talking to, because that's a stretch
Look you guys show me something in scripture like I show you guys. Take a Chapter and pick it apart like I have been showing you guys, show me something, please show me if I'm wrong
Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
2/6/18 10:21 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Quote: | | It's pretentious. It's "I wanna be a Jew" writ large, mostly by people who have no sense of who they are to begin with. You've seen those suburban white kids with the baggy pants, wife-beater t-shirts, and the ball caps with the flat brim? Wearing lots of goofy bling, got their swagger on, talking Ebonics? Blaring Eminem or Ice Cube from the 18 inch subwoofers in their cheap Mazdas with the tacky green and purple paint jobs? Yeah, those guys? The Hebrew Roots Movement is the ecclesiastical version of those guys. |
| Quote: | | Those who are conformed into the image of ancient Israel are conformed into the image of an ancient earthly nation, by a law not even they truly kept, a nation that was ultimately destroyed by the wrath of God. |
| Quote: | | It seems that the Hebrew roots movement would conform the believer into the image of ancient Israel, not the image of the glorified Christ Jesus. |
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_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
2/7/18 6:08 am
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Link |
If it's 'Hebrew Roots' does that mean it has to be Judaising?
I did go to the house of a friend from church who was having meetings to teach various things that started to move into Messianic or Hebrew Roots stuff. My wife and I went a few times, and it started to get weird. We went there, and he said reasonable stuff.
We went there a while later, and there were people there we didn't know. They were saying that the word 'Jesus' and even Iesous in Greek came from the pagan Egyptian name 'Isis.' Some of them believed that 'Lord' came from a name for a pagan Germanic God, and the same with the word 'God.' So they said, 'Yeshua', 'Elohim', etc. One of them said there was no other name besides 'Yeshua' whereby men may be saved.
I told him if you actually look at the Greek text, it says, "Iesous" there. They'd been reading a book that made all these far-fetched etymological claims. Just because the author of the book found some pagan gods name that started with 'Lor', then 'Lord' was supposed to have come from that name. It was really bad linguistics.
What irritated me was that there was a man with a doctorate in some sort of Biblical field who used to teach at a Baptist seminary who just sat there while they said this junk. In fact, when I pointed out that the Bible says there is no other name besides Iesous whereby men may be saved, he said some scholar said that the original texts could have been 'Yeshua', with Hebrew plugged in there. I asked a Messianic friend of mine about that later, and he said this scholar just asserted that with no evidence at all.
The guy who hosted the group eventually repented, fortunately.
A Judaiser, in my understanding, is someone who wants to circumcise Gentiles to supposedly save them by doing so. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't Judaisers in the 'Hebrew Roots' movement, but I don't know that it's all messed up and out in left field like the group I encountered.
I think for a lot of people, Jewish Roots or Hebrew Roots is about wanting to learn about the Old Testament more deeply, and that's a good thing.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
2/11/18 12:54 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Link wrote: | | I think for a lot of people, Jewish Roots or Hebrew Roots is about wanting to learn about the Old Testament more deeply, and that's a good thing. |
The problem is when this happens apart from a Christ-centered hermeneutic.
I'm reading a couple of books right now about the cultural world of the Hebrews -- specifically as it relates to Genesis and cosmology. It's fascinating stuff. It's vital to understanding what the Bible meant in the eyes and ears of a Semitic people who lived in a world very different than ours. It's a glorious way to increase one's knowledge of God and His ways.
But, Israel understood the cultural and etymological context of the Scriptures much better than we understand it today, and they missed the coming of their Messiah. If our hermeneutic isn't first Christ-centered, and then only secondarily focused on learning more about the Old Testament more deeply, than we won't understand it correctly no matter how much we study, or we'll end up insisting that believers purchased with Christ's blood must also be something else in addition.
So yes, I rejoice in people wanting to learn more about the Old Testament, and share in that pursuit. But the hermeneutic must emanate from Christ and the gospel, and not anything else. Because all things are from Him and through Him and to Him; to Him be glory forever. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/11/18 1:24 pm
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