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 I don't have time today for a lengthy |
brotherjames |
refutation. I will only say that at first glance of the first article Dave referenced from Kris Vallatton (whom I do not know but am aware of). The article makes some HUGE leaps from what Kris actually said and infers from these rather innocent comments some mega theological errors that frankly aren't in his statements nor in Bethel's practices from what I know of them. You also must realize that this person writing the article is absolutely opposed to the supernatural. He even goes on to say that the supernatural healings that the apostles manifested were never supposed to be given to the church after they (the apostles) passed away. Gee, we call that cessationism where I come from. So I'm supposed to give credence to an anti Pentecostal/Charismatic Calvinist's opinion of Bethel? See,this is the problem. Why are we having a debate about practices of people who believe in the gifts being manifested today and imposing upon them the criticism from people who don't believe in these things at all, in the first place. I think valid criticisms about certain things are useful but could we find some critics from within our own ranks. I know there are many. But don't cite sources from cessationists please.
More later. But I am pretty sure Bill Johnson does not endorse tarot cards or anything like them - reports to the contrary notwithstanding. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 10:17 am
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| Re: I don't have time today for a lengthy |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | But don't cite sources from cessationists please. |
I'm not providing this information for your sake. If you choose to reject factual information on the basis of the person providing it, that's your right, but I will continue to provide it for people who are interested in engaging with the facts and information. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 10:56 am
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| Hey Dave |
brotherjames |
| do you speak in tongues? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 10:59 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames, this thread is about the unbiblical practices and theology of Bill Johnson and Bethel Church. Whether or not I speak in tongues has no bearing on that conversation. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 11:27 am
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| yes it important |
brotherjames |
if you are not a Pentecostal then why are you posting critical accounts of someone who is?
If you are a Pentecostal why are citing articles from people who think you are crazy and ergo all others who believe like you or who believe in any manifestations of the supernatural aspects of God for today are crazy as well?
using a cessationist source to criticize someone who believes in the supernatural for today is fruitless to say the least and self-defeating and not useful. So why use them? So, Dave are you a Pentecostal? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 12:35 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Nope, none of that matters. I could be a Pentecostal or a cessationist or a Muslim -- if I am sharing information that is accurate and true, what I am or am not doesn't take away from that. Same goes for anyone else.
If you want to ignore the facts then please feel free. But refuting them on the basis of who is sharing them with you is fallacious. If you would like to engage with the information about Johnson's false teaching in light of the Bible and historic Christian and Pentecostal orthodoxy, I'm game. Otherwise, please let the rest of us get back to it. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 1:01 pm
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| What I'm saying Dave |
brotherjames |
is as I read Kris Vallaton's comments, I saw nothing there to be concerned about. The article you cited is filled with fallacious statements drawn from conclusions reached by a cessationist who believes none of the things we believe in that happen today are real. You're being obtuse. The things the article states that you say are facts are not in fact what Kris said.
I admit I have not had time to read the others but the first one I cannot support their comments as truth because they are not.
And why won't you answer my question? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 1:32 pm
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| Re: What I'm saying Dave |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | is as I read Kris Vallaton's comments, I saw nothing there to be concerned about. |
Okay, that's fine. That's a perspective. The way to argue in favor of that perspective is to examine specific remarks and specific interpretations of those remarks and explain why you think the interpretations are off base. Jumping to conclusions about the motives/intentions of the author, and attempting to discredit a position based on the author, the author's beliefs, or the author's associates, is not advancing a perspective. It's an ad hominem fallacy.
| brotherjames wrote: | | And why won't you answer my question? |
Because it's not germane. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 1:39 pm
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| I disagree |
brotherjames |
I made no ad hominem attack. But how can you legitimately cite a source who has an ingrained opposition to what you or Bethel believes to be true? How is that a fair fight. John MacArthur thinks you're either crazy or demon possessed if you speak in tongues. Why would I have him examine anything I believe or use him as a source to examine Bethel? You are mistaken and it's not just my perspective.
And I can only assume as a moderator on this Board that you are COG or at the very least Pentecostal but I'm not so sure. ANd if you are NOT Pentecostal, I reject any criticism you may have about Bethel or any other church's less than "orthodox" practices as being inconsequential. And if you are Pentecostal, then have you never been persecuted for the things that you believe? If not, you're not trying too hard in pursuing the Presence of God. Things get taken out of context and people say dumb things but that doesn't mean you're not of God, does it?
Are you embarassed to state your beliefs? Strange. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 5:51 pm
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| Re: I disagree |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | ANd if you are NOT Pentecostal, I reject any criticism you may have about Bethel or any other church's less than "orthodox" practices as being inconsequential. |
LOL. That's as straight-up ad hom as it comes.
I'm not going to continue this with you -- I would rather focus on communicating with people who are capable of interacting with the plain truth in front of their own two eyes. Before I go, though, I want to share something from a book written by Anthony Wood and Costi Hinn (the nephew of Benny), the guys who wrote that first link that has given you so much cessationist consternation:
| Quote: | | First, this book is not intended as a refutation against those who consider themselves Pentecostal [sic] or contend that revelatory gifts are active in the church today. We understand that many Pentecostals hold to historically orthodox doctrinal positions making them part of the Christian family. |
BTW, this book's foreward was written by John MacActhur.
As a tongue-talking continuationist, I will share two reasons I side with cessationists against false teachers like Bill Johnson despite my disagreement with them on second-order theological issues. First, they are brothers who proclaim the true gospel, while Bill Johnson is a false teacher who proclaims a false Christ and a false gospel. Therefore, while I have second-order differences with them concerning continuationism, those differences pale in comparison with the first-order differences I have with Johnson and Bethel Church.
Secondly, I cite them because, despite your claim, there are almost no contemporary charismatics who are opposing these apostate teachings, and few Pentecostals (although Gordon Fee and some others do leap to mind). For the most part, the charismatic movement is filled with theologically bankrupt apologists who will accept anything so long as someone calls it a move of God. They will not examine anything in the light of Scripture, but will accept everything so long as someone they know says God told it to them. After all, at least those people are trying to pursue the Presence of God, even if they are teaching a false christology and producing unbiblical manifestations in the process.
I hope that answers your questions. If you'd like to interact with the facts about Johnson's teachings (e.g. to make a logical, Scriptural argument about why they are not false) then that's fine. If you'd like to say that a particular commentator's assessment of Johnson's teachings is incorrect and offer evidence supporting your claim, great, I'd love to do that with you. But if you want to just continue slinging mud at me and others because you don't like what we're saying, then I'm done. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:04 pm
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| I bet you loved |
brotherjames |
| The Brownsville Revival too. I'm done too. No one is above criticism including Bill Johnson. But to say he is preaching a false GOSPEL is beyond the pale. I have better things to do with my time. My arguments won't change your mind and yours especially ones from John Macarthur won't change any of mine. Be blessed. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/20/18 7:18 pm
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| Re: I bet you loved |
Dave Dorsey |
| brotherjames wrote: | | Be blessed. |
Likewise to you.
For everyone else -- here's a great overview of Bill Johnson and his dangerous teaching. This was an article God used to open my eyes as He was bringing me out of this kind of stuff.
| Quote: | Johnson writes, “Usually those who use the natural mind to protect themselves from deception are the most deceived. They’ve relied on their own finite logic and reason to keep them safe, which is in itself a deception. They usually have an explanation for all that’s going on in their walk with the Lord, but criticize those who long for more. Our hearts can embrace things that our heads can’t. Our hearts will lead us where our logic would never dare to go.†Elsewhere he asserts, “But to follow [the Holy Spirit], we must be willing to follow off the map—to go beyond what we know. To do so successfully we must recognize His presence above all.†And again, he says, “It’s difficult to expect the same fruit of the early church when we value a book they didn’t have more than the Holy Spirit they did have. It’s not Father, Son and Holy Bible.â€
The prophet Jeremiah, however, warned, “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?†(Jer. 17:9). Countless people today endorse unbiblical practices, such as gay marriage, because it feels right in their hearts. A fortiori, it is perilous to trust in extrabiblical revelation that “will lead us where our logic would never dare to go.†As Hanegraaff has shown, a hallmark of counterfeit revivalism is the subjugation of critical thinking, as though the mind were an obstacle to spiritual illumination. But the Holy Spirit always works through Scripture as our final authority in discerning truth, which entails the disciplined use of our critical thinking faculties. |
http://www.equip.org/article/off-map-bill-johnson-pursuit-extrabiblical-authentication/ |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:25 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
So if you have any unanswered prayer in your life, in your ministry, in your church, in your family... please know that Jesus never even had a passing thought about you bearing up under adversity, enduring trials, and trusting in Him even though you don't understand and do not seem to be receiving answers to your prayers. Not sure what you're doing wrong, but you need to get with the program. |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:36 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Here's an interesting one from K Val... something to think about as you consider this is the tendency for cults to focus on two key things: deifying man and humanizing God.
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:40 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Did Bill Johnson try to keep the gold dust on the down-low?
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:41 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Wakey wakey: Beni Johnson shares about how God told her to go to a chapel in Wales and shout "wakey wakey" to wake up an angel, who has since been seen by others in Wales:
https://youtu.be/Q25oPxQ7zH0
Read her blog post about it on her website: http://www.benij.org/blog.php?id=1 |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:46 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Humanizing God, deifying man:
“Jesus Christ said of Himself, ‘The Son can do nothing.’ In the Greek language that word nothing has a unique meaning—it means NOTHING, just like it does in English! He had NO supernatural capabilities whatsoever!…He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God…not as God.†(“When Heaven Invadesâ€, pg 29.)
“…Jesus had no ability to heal the sick. He couldn’t cast out devils, and He had no ability to raise the dead. He said of Himself in John 5:19, ‘the Son can do nothing of Himself.’ He had set aside His divinity. He did miracles as man in right relationship with God because He was setting forth a model for us, something for us to follow….Jesus so emptied Himself that He was incapable of doing what was required of Him by the Father – without the Father’s help…†(“The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind“, pg 50.)
Separationist Christology (separating Jesus from Christ):
https://shepherdguardian.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/heresy-bill-johnsons-christology/ |
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 7:55 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
God waits on you:
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Posts: 13654
2/20/18 8:05 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I could go on literally all night, because there is so much out there, but this should be sufficient. Pictures and short quotes are one thing -- anyone can say something silly now and then. It's the theology and teaching that's present in long form in the books that is really concerning, and there's ample material out there concerning those books that I'd love to engage about. I shared info about that earlier.
I have no idea if Bill Johnson is a Christian or not. I do know he teaches a false gospel that is foreign to historic Christianity and historic Pentecostalism. I hope and pray he repents, and I hope and pray he is just deceived and does in fact know Christ. But whether he does or not, we are commanded by Scripture to defend truth and mark false teaching. Johnson is part of a movement that is leading millions away from the God of the Bible and toward a gospel of subjective experience and the truth of the "heart". I won't go on any more, but I would urge anyone here to critically examine this stuff in the light of Scripture.
To quote from an article I linked earlier:
| Quote: | Sadly, much of today’s church isn’t satisfied with the gospel. For them, it isn’t powerful enough. Paul warned about this when he wrote, “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths†(2 Tim. 4:3–5).
Just like noted snake handler Jamie Coots, who recently died of a rattlesnake bite, many pastors feel they must authenticate their ministries and the gospel by performing signs and wonders. But since the death of the first-century apostles and the closing of the biblical canon, Scripture stands on its own and doesn’t need these miracles to defend itself. Hebrews tells us, “For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart†(Heb. 4:12). Indeed, in the story Jesus told about the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked that Lazarus be sent back to warn his family so they wouldn’t end up in torment. But Abraham’s reply was, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead†(Luke 16:31).
Contemporary signs and wonders are not necessary to win people to Christ, but the Holy Spirit, working through the Word of God, is essential. It’s time that the church abandon sensationalistic teachings and get back to doing what it’s supposed to be doing. |
And Pentecostals and continuationists who affirm God's miracle-working answers to prayer today should be the ones at the front of the line declaring this. We affirm a mighty God whose arm is not shortened that He cannot save, nor His ear too dull to hear and answer the prayers of His people. We affirm a God who breaks into our lives with His overwhelming grace and does what no one else can do. And we affirm that this God is revealed wholly and sufficiently, with all necessary power and authority, in His holy word which He has given us as a testimony of His Son Jesus, the only one through whom we can be saved. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
2/20/18 8:11 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| As OTCP has often said, this is the stuff of cereal saints: Fruit, Nuts, Flakes. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
2/20/18 9:47 pm
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