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 The WOF vs. Scripture Challenge... |
Aaron Scott |
Now, I don't consider myself a WOFer, since, even though I know of WOF ministers, I have not heard more than a handful of sermons. What I believe (rightly or wrongly), I came to myself, for the most part.
But here's the challenge: Present a STANDARD (not some extreme position, please) WOF position, and show why it is DEAD WRONG.
I would almost wager that you can't do that. Now, you and I may agree that it's wrong, but I doubt we can prove that it is DEAD WRONG (i.e., without any scriptural support or unreasonable scriptural support).
Fair enough? Let's hash it out in love and gentleness. If I'm wrong, I'll be the better for you showing me. But I just have not seen absolutely compelling evidence that some of these positions are clearly wrong (even if I don't agree with their take on it). Why? Because as with most of the Christian denominations, every one of them can make a good (or at least decent) scriptural case for what they believe. That doesn't mean they are right, but it does mean that we don't get to act like there is no reason in the world to believe it.
Anyway, I would appreciate you giving the WOF position and your scripture and reasoning against it. Thank you. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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1/17/18 1:49 pm
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Change Agent |
| This ought to be good. Where is OTCP when you put him on the spot? |
Acts Enthusiast
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1/17/18 6:46 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
WOF theology posits that: First, that Christ was re-created on the cross from a sinless deity to a Satanic being. Second, that redemption was secured not on the cross but in hell. Third, that Jesus was reborn (or born again) in hell. And finally, that Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who are born again are likewise “reincarnated.â€
I. Re-Creation on the Cross
Kenneth Hagin writes that spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature.
A. Destructive Assertion
Before examining the destructive notion that Christ was re-created on the
cross, let me offer a deï¬nition of atonement. Simply put, the atonement means that Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death upon the cross, dealt completely with the problem of sin. The Cross stands at the center of history, so our understanding of the atonement is central to the faith.
Virtually every cult denies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through the sinless sacrifice of Christ upon the cross.
The Bible clearly states that one’s eternal salvation rests on what one personally believes about the blood atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Kenneth Copeland writes that in a conversation with Jesus, he was told that Jesus became a sign of Satan when He hung upon the cross. “Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? And the Lord said, “Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.â€
How does such a claim align with Scripture? It doesn’t. In the Old Testament, whenever anyone committed an offense or sin, a sacriï¬ce called a sin offering was required in order to “cover†the transgression. The offering had to be “without defect†(Leviticus 4:3).
Flawed animals were deemed unacceptable for sacrifice (Deut. 15:21). Since such sacrifices foreshadow Christ’s ultimate sacrifice on the cross, we know that Christ was offered without spot or blemish, and as such, could not have become one in nature with Satan. 1 Peter 1:19 speaks of, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.â€
B. Distorting the Text
Faith teachers distort the text to support their pet theories. II Corinthians 5:21 is a case in point, where Paul writes, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us.†Here they argue that Jesus became a satanic being on the
cross. But is this really what the apostle had in mind? No!
To interpret this passage as saying that Christ was transformed into sin is to strip the Savior of His personal being and reduce Him to a mere abstraction.
The Levitical concepts of imputation and substitution are the backdrop for Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus did not literally become sin or a sinner, the sin of humankind was imputed to him.
God made Him sin, not in the sense of being a personal sinner, but the Father made His innocent Son the object of His wrath and judgment, for our sakes. Through Christ on the cross the sin of the world is judged and
taken away.
Faith adherents also cite Numbers 2l:8-9 and John 3:14 to prove that Jesus became a sinner on the cross. Since Jesus was “lifted up†on the cross as Moses “lifted up†the bronze serpent in the desert, He have taken on the nature of Satan, symbolized by the serpent.
However, these verses address the manner in which he died, that he was lifted up on an instrument of death.
It is clear that Christ’s re-creation on the cross has no scriptural basis.
C. Describing the Questions
Numerous passages affirm that our sins were dealt with “through the sacriï¬ce of the body of Jesus Christ once for all†(Hebrews 10:10; cf. Romans 7:4; Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 4:1).
This raises three questions for the Faith movement’s view of the atonement.
First, why is there no explicit mention of Christ’s “spiritual†death—while
the Bible is replete with details of the fact and significance of His physical
death—if it was His spiritual death that did away with the curse?
Second, why does the Bible place so much emphasis on Christ’s physical
death on the cross—to the exclusion of His alleged spiritual death—if His physical death was not the factor that eradicated sin?
Third, why is it that Christ Himself told us to remember the sacrifice He
made with His body and blood (both of which are essentially physical), while
saying nothing about any spiritual sacrifice (cf. Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians
1 1:24-26)?
The answer is simple, the biblical evidence indicates that Jesus did not die spiritually in the faith sense. Rather, His physical death paid the price for humanity’s sin. Jesus said, “This is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. (1 Corinthians 11:24-26)
It was on the cross that we were pardoned through Christ’s broken body and shed blood—not through some mythological spiritual death.
The error that Christ became a sinner upon the cross inevitably leads to the
further error that His torment upon Calvary’s cross was insufficient to atone for the sins of humankind.
II. Redemption in Hell
Fred Price, “Do you think that the punishment tor our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated
from God . . . Satan and all the demons of hell…dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence.
A. Inadequacy of the Cross
In historical orthodox theology the end of the atonement took place upon the cross. In faith theology the cross was only the beginning.
Joyce Meyer is emphatic in saying: “You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.â€
Joel Osteen states that in hell “the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. For three days Jesus fought with the enemy. It was the battle of the ages.â€
Yet, it was on the cross that Jesus said, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit†(Luke 23:46; cf. John 19:30).
Kenneth Copeland is likewise emphatic: “When Jesus cried, ‘lt is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption.â€
Paul Billheimer in his book Destined for the Throne, “In hell Jesus was at Satan’s mercy. [l]t was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only His physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to “descend†into hell…Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner.â€
B. Twisting of Texts
Two passages in particular are used to support the idea of redemption in hell. First, in Matthew 12:40, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.†(Matthew 12:40). Jesus is clearly alluding to His burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. There is not even a hint in the context that Jesus would experience three days and three nights of mortal combat with the forces of darkness.
Second, in Ephesians 4:9-10, “What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.†Far from demonstrating that our Lord was incarcerated in hell, this passage references Christ’s incarnation on earth.
Paul writes in Colossians 2:15 that Jesus “disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.â€
Yet, Joyce Meyer declares that Jesus “was in the grave three days. During that time, He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go because of our sin. He paid the price there.â€
The problem is that it was on the cross that Jesus said, “It is finished.†It literally means “It is paid; the debt has been paid in full.â€
III. Rebirth in Hell
Creflo Dollar writes, “Often, in the midst of our religious views of Jesus, we forget that He was actually the first person to ever become born again.â€
According to Charles Capps, it was this pivotal event of Jesus becoming born again…The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of hell.â€
A. Doctrinal Perversion
The idea of a born-again Jesus is foreign to “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.â€
l Peter 3:18 states that Jesus “Was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.†This is hardly a commentary on Christ’s spiritual rebirth. In fact, the verse highlights the reality that Christ’s sacrifice was physical, without the slightest reference to spiritual death.
Christ’s body was left hanging on the cross the moment he surrendered his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). In other words, it was the parting of His spirit that marked Jesus’ “death in the body.â€
B. Revelation Knowledge
Since there is no scriptural support for the redemption in hell position, Faith teachers appeal to revelation knowledge.
Benny Hinn states, “if Jesus was not reborn spiritually, we ourselves have no hope of being born again: The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth—it’s just heavy right now on me… Do you know what the word “begotten†means? It means reborn. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was born again.â€
C. Significance of Begotten
But, does the term “begotten†mean “born-again?†Once again, the answer is no. The term “begotten†in this context simply means “born,†and is in no way synonymous with the word “reborn.â€
The biblical concept of being “reborn†(cf. John 3:3) applies uniquely to sinful humankind, never to the sinless Son of God. John 1:14 speciï¬cally refers to Jesus as “the only begotten from the Father†(NASB). Such a person has no need to be born again, for He is, always has been, and ever will be undiminished deity (John 1:1).
Where did such a teaching originate? It has no biblical basis. The only conceivable reason for concocting such a belief is to validate the faulty belief that Jesus became a sinner on the cross—and as such had to be born again.
IV. Reincarnation
Kenneth Hagin writes, “Every man who has been born again is an incarnation. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus.â€
The reincarnation of Christ is arguably the greatest of all atonement atrocities. According to Faith theology, Jesus came in flesh as merely a man. On the cross He was reincarnated as a satanic being. In hell he was
reincarnated once again from demonic to divine.
TBN founder Paul Crouch writes, “That is when His divinity returned.†To say that Jesus’ “divinity returned†presumes that there was a point when Christ was no longer God. But such assertion is unbiblical (Philippians 2:6; cf Hebrews 13:8).
A. Insurmountable Obstacles
At least three obstacles invalidate the idea of reincarnation.
First, one can only be incarnated if one existed prior to having a body. While preexistence is taught among the cults, it is foreign to the kingdom of Christ.
Second, to suggest that we are as much an incarnation as was Jesus is to place humankind on par with God. Third, if “Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself,†we would inhabit a polytheistic planet.
B. Error Begets Error
Creflo Dollar writes, “The day that Jesus was resurrected He became the first begotten Son of God—born again from spiritual death to life.â€
According to Benny Hinn, “you [in your present incarnation] are a little god …a little messiah walking on earth.â€
V. The Biblical Definition of the Atonement
The atonement is understood primarily as the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus that makes salvation for humankind possible. As such, the atonement is primarily soteriological in its intent and scope.
A. Biblical Basis
Throughout the New Testament, Christ is consistently presented as having borne the sin of humankind on the cross.
B. Theological Assessment
There are several themes upon which the atonement is understood:
1) Christ was the perfect sinless sacrifice
2) Christ paid the penalty for sin
3) Christ established a new covenant
4) Christ won the victory over all enemies at the cross, not in hell
Such references clearly indicate that the primary essence of the atonement is soteriological. |
Acts-pert Poster
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1/17/18 7:17 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Kenyon wrote in the 40s. Hagin wrote starting in 1966, and continued throughout the 70s and 80s. Plenty of people have written at length about their work since then, including Walter Martin, Hank Hanegraaff, Norman Geisler, Gordon Fee, and more. If you want to learn the doctrinal issues with WoF, plenty has already been said and written.
Edit: OTCP is way more gracious, patient, and kind than I am. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/17/18 7:17 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | snip |
In before these are written off as "extreme positions". Best believe someone's gonna speak to those goalposts, and they're gonna move. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/17/18 7:21 pm
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diakoneo |
OTCP that wasn't half bad. 
You are quite the bumpkin scholar.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/17/18 10:16 pm
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| Re: Challenge |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Change Agent wrote: | | Where is OTCP when you put him on the spot? |
OTCP was not put on the spot. He was asked to "give a defense" and did so. |
Acts-pert Poster
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1/17/18 10:47 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| diakoneo wrote: | OTCP that wasn't half bad.
You are quite the bumpkin scholar. |
My comments were not cut/pasted from another source, D. They were cut/pasted from a document I wrote that involved myriad hours of research. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
1/17/18 10:48 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | OTCP that wasn't half bad.
You are quite the bumpkin scholar. |
My comments were not cut/pasted from another source, D. They were cut/pasted from a document I wrote that involved myriad hours of research. |
A few questions about some passages:
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Did we die with Christ? Did we physically die with Him or spiritually die with Him?
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
At what point was death "master over Him?"
How did death master God?
How did Him being "raised from the dead" free Him from death being His master?
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
How did Jesus die to sin?
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
How was His birth a prototype of our birth for Him to be "first?"
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Were we made physically alive or spiritually alive when Christ was made alive?
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
If we have already been made alive (Eph 2:6) and "will be made alive" at His coming, isn't the first spiritual and the next physical?
Or aren't we born again already?
If we were made alive "together with Him", isn't that a spiritual birth?
If we will be made alive at His coming, isn't that physical resurrection?
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
How is Christ "firstborn from the dead?"
Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
How is Christ the beginning of the creation of God?
2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Was Christ a new creature and all who are in Him new as well?
1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
What is your basis for favoring Jesus being "made alive BY the Spirit" over Jesus being "made alive in the spirit" in this passage? Don't many of the most accurate versions render this "made alive in the spirit?"
Do you believe Jesus went to Hell, not to suffer or for any redemptive purpose, but to preach?
Mat 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?†that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?â€
Did God forsake God? If so, why?
Isa 54:8 “For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
8 “In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,â€
Says the Lord your Redeemer.
Is this passage talking about Jesus?
Are all of these fellas WOFFIES?
John Wesley believed in Jesus’ spiritual death:“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? – Our Lord hereby at once expresses his trust in God, and a most distressing sense of his letting loose the powers of darkness upon him, withdrawing the comfortable discoveries of his presence , and filling his soul with a terrible sense of the wrath due to the sins which he was bearing.â€Â -In Wesley’s commentary of the Bible, Wesley’s Explanatory Notes .
John Calvin believed in Jesus’ spiritual death:“If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No – it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment.â€Â -Calvin, John. Christ Descended Into Hell , Excerpted from Institutes of the Christian Religion. Edited by John T. McNiell. Translated and indexed by Ford Lewis Battles. Publishing date unknown. 7 July, 2003
Billy Graham believes in Jesus’ spiritual death:“Jesus’ cry, “˜My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ (Mark 15:34) has puzzled many. Jesus is actually quoting the opening line of Psalm 22 and using it to express His deep agony on the cross. He is suffering the penalty for our sin in our place. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions — physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father.â€Â -Graham, Billy. Did God really forsake Jesus when He was dying on the cross? Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Publishing date unknown. 7 July, 2003.
John Gill seems to think Jesus died spiritually:“that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man; that is, Christ was made a little lower than the angels by becoming man, and assuming a body frail and mortal, that he might die for his church and people: to “˜taste death’, is a Jewish phrase, often to be met with in Rabbinical writings; (See Gill on Matthew 16:28) and signifies the truth and reality of his death, and the experience he had of the bitterness of it, it being attended with the wrath of God, and curse of the law; though he continued under it but for a little while, it was but a taste; and it includes all kinds of death , he tasted of the death of afflictions, being a man of sorrows all his days, and a corporeal death, and what was equivalent to an eternal one; and so some think the words will bear to be rendered, “˜that he by the grace of God might taste of every death’; which rendering of the words, if it could be established, as it is agreeable to the context, and to the analogy of faith, would remove all pretence of an argument from this place, in favour of the universal scheme: what moved God to make him lower than the angels, and deliver him up to death, was not any anger towards him, any disregard to him, or because he deserved it, but his “˜grace’, free favour, and love to men; this moved him to provide him as a ransom; to preordain him to be the Lamb slain; to send him in the fulness of time, and give him up to justice and death: the Syriac version reads, “˜for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all'†– Gill, John John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible (Paris, AR: The Baptist Standard Bearer), The New John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible Modernized and adapted for the computer by Larry Pierce of Online Bible. All Rights Reserved, Larry Pierce, Winterbourne , Ontario . Available at Crosswalk.com
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown believe Jesus died spiritually:“â€ËœTaste death’ implies His personal experimental undergoing of death: death of the body, and death (spiritually) of the soul, in His being forsaken of the Father.â€Â – Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
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1/18/18 7:17 am
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| Jesus provides some interesting insight: |
Mark Ledbetter |
As Jesus hung on the cross with thieves on either side, one thief made this request, "Jesus, remember me when You come in your kingdom!"
To this request Jesus replied, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42-43).
Paradise doesn't seem to be a place of torment. I don't see Satan and demons dragging Jesus in to hell, especially when Jesus willing laid down His life for the ransom of men from sin. And, especially when we erroneously see hell as Satan's domain - that comes later when he is judged in Revelation.
Death does not necessarily result in immediate judgment of "fiery Gehenna."
Death results in the "descent" into Hades/Sheol, the "land of the dead" without any connotation of torment.
However, Hades can be described as being compartmentalized: The rich man went to hades and was tormented by flames, but Lazarus was "carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom, a metaphor for the the abiding place of the righteous awaiting the resurrection.
So, it is possible the connotations of "hell" can include both a place of torment (fiery Gehenna) and abiding in Paradise/Abraham's bosom until the resurrection.
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1/18/18 9:40 am
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bonnie knox |
| I just wanted to say I'm enjoying this discussion. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/18/18 9:54 am
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| Re: Jesus provides some interesting insight: |
UncleJD |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | As Jesus hung on the cross with thieves on either side, one thief made this request, "Jesus, remember me when You come in your kingdom!"
To this request Jesus replied, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:42-43).
Paradise doesn't seem to be a place of torment. I don't see Satan and demons dragging Jesus in to hell, especially when Jesus willing laid down His life for the ransom of men from sin. And, especially when we erroneously see hell as Satan's domain - that comes later when he is judged in Revelation.
Death does not necessarily result in immediate judgment of "fiery Gehenna."
Death results in the "descent" into Hades/Sheol, the "land of the dead" without any connotation of torment.
However, Hades can be described as being compartmentalized: The rich man went to hades and was tormented by flames, but Lazarus was "carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom, a metaphor for the the abiding place of the righteous awaiting the resurrection.
So, it is possible the connotations of "hell" can include both a place of torment (fiery Gehenna) and abiding in Paradise/Abraham's bosom until the resurrection. |
My thoughts too, Jesus went into the "bosom of Abraham" not into perdition. The place where He described Lazarus as being, not on the other side of that gulf where the rich man was. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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1/18/18 10:08 am
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| Re: Jesus provides some interesting insight: |
Dave Dorsey |
Brad's appeal to Calvin is in error. He is quoting Institutes II.16.10, in which Calvin is commentating on the Apostles' Creed. A closer reading, specifically of II.16.12, will make it clear that Calvin is not referring to spiritual death in the same way that WoF theology does. II.16.11 brings into proper context Calvin's statement about Christ wrestling with evil in Hell.
II.16.8-12 can be read here:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/christdecended.html |
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1/18/18 10:25 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Also, so long as we're appealing to authority (which is not a bad thing), here's Dr. Michael Brown on James White's "The Dividing Line", Jan 2, 2018:
"The heretical Word of Faith teaching that Jesus died in Hell...became sin and was born again as a glorified man, that's a heretical belief that I categorically reject."
Dr. Brown has IMO become quite the apologist for the fringe elements of charismania over the last several years, but here he nails it. He is apparently working on a new book in which he will endeavor to bring correction to certain errors within the charismatic movement. |
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1/18/18 11:24 am
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| OTCP 1... |
Aaron Scott |
OTCP, since your paper is too long to address in a single sitting, I will deal with it a piece at a time. NOTE: While I do not hold most of the positions you speak to, I am simply trying to point out that the scriptures can legitimately lead someone to draw the conclusions that WOFers hold. That is, they are not, as you imply, completely off-the-wall positions. There IS reason enough (even if we feel we have BETTER reasons for our position, etc.) to hold most or all of the positions you mentions. So let's begin....
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | WOF theology posits that: First, that Christ was re-created on the cross from a sinless deity to a Satanic being. Second, that redemption was secured not on the cross but in hell. Third, that Jesus was reborn (or born again) in hell. And finally, that Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who are born again are likewise “reincarnated.â€
If you are made sin, are you like God? Now, you and I see this as a symbolic matter, but it is not a far leap to suppose that, if Jesus was made sin, then He clearly could not have God's nature since, by definition, God has no sin. So we see that the WOF, even if we think them wrong, are not entirely without a basis for believing what they believe (I am assuming you are being absolutely upfront about what they believe).
Is it a out of the question to suppose that if Jesus took our place on the cross, took our place in death, then He also took our place in hell? Besides, Peter's Pentecost sermon plainly says Jesus went to hell. It is one thing to argue that the WOF have misunderstood matters. It is another thing entirely to act as if they have ZERO reason for believing as they do.
I have not heard of the "reincarnation" thing you speak of, but as Brad pointed out elsewhere, Jesus IS the FIRSTBORN from the dead. That clearly provides adequate support to hold that Jesus was made anew in some way (and He was--He did not have a glorified body when He died).
I. Re-Creation on the Cross
Kenneth Hagin writes that spiritual death means something more than separation from God. Spiritual death also means having Satan’s nature.
Yes, I think we ALL agree with that. After all, anyone that is spiritually dead does NOT have God's nature, do they? And if you don't have God's nature, whose nature do you have?
You and I both know that Jesus is God. And AS God, He cannot have a devilish nature. In fact, as God, He cannot even be tempted with evil! And yet Jesus WAS tempted with evil (the temptation to worship Satan in return for the kingdoms of the world). This was a function of the flesh which He inhabited--"yet without sin." But the fact that Jesus was made sin for us puts a different spin on it. Now, you and I see it as a symbolic placement of sin--that is, that He was still utterly pure in God's sight, etc. But how many sermons have you heard where someone claimed that the reason Jesus thought God had forsaken Him was because God could not look upon sin (which Jesus had became)? Yep, plenty of times.
So, it is not an unreasonable stretch to claim that when Jesus became sin, that at least the part of Him that was human, had a different nature.
Answer this question: Did Jesus have a human spirit? If not, then as Gregory of Nanzianus argued (I paraphrase), "What He did not assume is not saved." That is, our flesh is saved because He had human flesh, etc....
Did Jesus have a human spirit or a divine one? Now, I argue that He had BOTH. After all, something besides body parts had to dread the cross and ask for the cup to pass, and I think that was His human spirit. At the same time, if there is NOTHING about Him that is divine, then He is not God, is He?
So, it's not hard to reason that Jesus' human nature, upon His becoming sin for us, was no longer godly. Bear in mind that I am not trying to PROVE this is the case (since I likely haven't given it more than 10 minutes thought in my decades). I am simply pointing out that we (and by "we" I mean "you") cannot blithely dismiss WOF doctrine and at the same time be intellectually honest.
A. Destructive Assertion
Before examining the destructive notion that Christ was re-created on the
cross, let me offer a deï¬nition of atonement. Simply put, the atonement means that Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death upon the cross, dealt completely with the problem of sin. The Cross stands at the center of history, so our understanding of the atonement is central to the faith.
Virtually every cult denies the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through the sinless sacrifice of Christ upon the cross.
The Bible clearly states that one’s eternal salvation rests on what one personally believes about the blood atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross.
No, the cross is NOT the end all of everything Christian. It is absolutely essential and central, BUT if Jesus had died on the cross, BUT NOT ROSE AGAIN, then we could easily write Him off as just another good man, great teacher, prophet, etc.
At the same time, the resurrection is not the end all, either. There is no resurrection without the cross.
It's not the cross or the resurrection that are the center: IT IS JESUS.
I mean, when you get down to it, there's no cross without the manger. And the manger means nothing without the cross. You get the idea.
Now, like you, I preach the cross (Jesus and Him crucified). There had to be shedding of blood, etc.
Does the WOF believe that we are saved by works? I've never heard that said by them, but then again, I don't study them. But you raised the point as if they deny salvation by grace.
Kenneth Copeland writes that in a conversation with Jesus, he was told that Jesus became a sign of Satan when He hung upon the cross. “Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? And the Lord said, “Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.â€
That actually makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, why would the very thing that was killing them be what Moses lifted up in the wilderness? And since sin is what destroys mankind, it makes a very good analogy that Jesus, having become sin, is lifted up in order to save us from our sins.
Jesus could have used any number of analogies to the cross...but He used the one about Moses holding up the serpent in the wilderness. Why? I think Copeland makes a fair point--and that is all I am trying to demonstrate. I am NOT trying to prove he or they are right...just that you cannot be fair minded and just out-of-hand reject everything they say because you don't like some of the things they believe.
How does such a claim align with Scripture? It doesn’t. In the Old Testament, whenever anyone committed an offense or sin, a sacriï¬ce called a sin offering was required in order to “cover†the transgression. The offering had to be “without defect†(Leviticus 4:3).
Flawed animals were deemed unacceptable for sacrifice (Deut. 15:21). Since such sacrifices foreshadow Christ’s ultimate sacrifice on the cross, we know that Christ was offered without spot or blemish, and as such, could not have become one in nature with Satan. 1 Peter 1:19 speaks of, “the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.â€
Guess what? The divine part of Jesus couldn't die, could it? So, tell me, did Jesus die for us or not? OF COURSE. But if so, then what part of Jesus DID die? That's right: The human part of Jesus. Jesus is, was, and will always be sinless in that He is God. But the human part of Him was hungry, weary, thirsty, tempted. THAT part of Him, if made sin, could certainly be held to be unlike God at that point. Doesn't mean you and I accept it, just that the WOF is not without cause for believing it as they do.
B. Distorting the Text
Faith teachers distort the text to support their pet theories. II Corinthians 5:21 is a case in point, where Paul writes, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us.†Here they argue that Jesus became a satanic being on the
cross. But is this really what the apostle had in mind? No!
To interpret this passage as saying that Christ was transformed into sin is to strip the Savior of His personal being and reduce Him to a mere abstraction.
The Levitical concepts of imputation and substitution are the backdrop for Paul’s statement in 2 Corinthians 5:21. Jesus did not literally become sin or a sinner, the sin of humankind was imputed to him.
Fine. We are virtually on the same page. But that is not the only way to interpret the passage, is it? The WOF, even though we might disagree with them, are not exactly pulling this stuff out of thin air, are they? They DO have some reason for believing it. And the fact that they love Jesus, seek to please Him, seek to worship Him in spirit and in truth, etc., ought to perhaps give us just a little bit of caution in how we paint them as (at least in your case) absolute heretics, etc.
This will come as a shock to some, but a heretic is NOT someone who happens to disagree with you about some element of scripture. More is required. If that former were the case, then Baptists and everyone but pretty much me and the Church of God of 1960, is a heretic.
No, a heretic is someone who espouses things that are CLEARLY at odds with the scripture. And/or that will CLEARLY lead one away from Christ, to hell, etc. That is, heresy MUST mean more than simple disagreement. Otherwise, I expect you, OTCP, to claim that Baptists, Methodists, etc. are all heretics (and use your real name if you believe it that strongly).
God made Him sin, not in the sense of being a personal sinner, but the Father made His innocent Son the object of His wrath and judgment, for our sakes. Through Christ on the cross the sin of the world is judged and
taken away.
You and I agree that it is symbolic. But it is also that case that it could be interpreted in another way, is it not? That the flesh part of Jesus became sin, etc.
For instance, footwashing is interpreted by those in the Church of God as a command to literally wash one another's feet. But it is perfectly fair--and I have to admit, probably correct--to hold that it is a symbolic point. The scriptures allow enough leeway to permit one to interpret "Jesus became sin" both literally and symbolically. You and I believe it symbolically; others take it literally.
MORE LATER.
Faith adherents also cite Numbers 2l:8-9 and John 3:14 to prove that Jesus became a sinner on the cross. Since Jesus was “lifted up†on the cross as Moses “lifted up†the bronze serpent in the desert, He have taken on the nature of Satan, symbolized by the serpent.
However, these verses address the manner in which he died, that he was lifted up on an instrument of death.
It is clear that Christ’s re-creation on the cross has no scriptural basis.
C. Describing the Questions
Numerous passages affirm that our sins were dealt with “through the sacriï¬ce of the body of Jesus Christ once for all†(Hebrews 10:10; cf. Romans 7:4; Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 4:1).
This raises three questions for the Faith movement’s view of the atonement.
First, why is there no explicit mention of Christ’s “spiritual†death—while
the Bible is replete with details of the fact and significance of His physical
death—if it was His spiritual death that did away with the curse?
Second, why does the Bible place so much emphasis on Christ’s physical
death on the cross—to the exclusion of His alleged spiritual death—if His physical death was not the factor that eradicated sin?
Third, why is it that Christ Himself told us to remember the sacrifice He
made with His body and blood (both of which are essentially physical), while
saying nothing about any spiritual sacrifice (cf. Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians
1 1:24-26)?
The answer is simple, the biblical evidence indicates that Jesus did not die spiritually in the faith sense. Rather, His physical death paid the price for humanity’s sin. Jesus said, “This is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. (1 Corinthians 11:24-26)
It was on the cross that we were pardoned through Christ’s broken body and shed blood—not through some mythological spiritual death.
The error that Christ became a sinner upon the cross inevitably leads to the
further error that His torment upon Calvary’s cross was insufficient to atone for the sins of humankind.
II. Redemption in Hell
Fred Price, “Do you think that the punishment tor our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid your price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated
from God . . . Satan and all the demons of hell…dragged Him down to the very pit of hell itself to serve our sentence.
A. Inadequacy of the Cross
In historical orthodox theology the end of the atonement took place upon the cross. In faith theology the cross was only the beginning.
Joyce Meyer is emphatic in saying: “You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.â€
Joel Osteen states that in hell “the two most powerful forces in the universe have come together to do battle for the first time in history. For three days Jesus fought with the enemy. It was the battle of the ages.â€
Yet, it was on the cross that Jesus said, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit†(Luke 23:46; cf. John 19:30).
Kenneth Copeland is likewise emphatic: “When Jesus cried, ‘lt is finished!’ He was not speaking of the plan of redemption.â€
Paul Billheimer in his book Destined for the Throne, “In hell Jesus was at Satan’s mercy. [l]t was not sufficient for Christ to offer up only His physical life on the cross. His pure human spirit had to “descend†into hell…Satan and the hosts of hell ruled over Him as over any lost sinner.â€
B. Twisting of Texts
Two passages in particular are used to support the idea of redemption in hell. First, in Matthew 12:40, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.†(Matthew 12:40). Jesus is clearly alluding to His burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea. There is not even a hint in the context that Jesus would experience three days and three nights of mortal combat with the forces of darkness.
Second, in Ephesians 4:9-10, “What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.†Far from demonstrating that our Lord was incarcerated in hell, this passage references Christ’s incarnation on earth.
Paul writes in Colossians 2:15 that Jesus “disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.â€
Yet, Joyce Meyer declares that Jesus “was in the grave three days. During that time, He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go because of our sin. He paid the price there.â€
The problem is that it was on the cross that Jesus said, “It is finished.†It literally means “It is paid; the debt has been paid in full.â€
III. Rebirth in Hell
Creflo Dollar writes, “Often, in the midst of our religious views of Jesus, we forget that He was actually the first person to ever become born again.â€
According to Charles Capps, it was this pivotal event of Jesus becoming born again…The Church started when Jesus was born again in the gates of hell.â€
A. Doctrinal Perversion
The idea of a born-again Jesus is foreign to “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.â€
l Peter 3:18 states that Jesus “Was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.†This is hardly a commentary on Christ’s spiritual rebirth. In fact, the verse highlights the reality that Christ’s sacrifice was physical, without the slightest reference to spiritual death.
Christ’s body was left hanging on the cross the moment he surrendered his spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46). In other words, it was the parting of His spirit that marked Jesus’ “death in the body.â€
B. Revelation Knowledge
Since there is no scriptural support for the redemption in hell position, Faith teachers appeal to revelation knowledge.
Benny Hinn states, “if Jesus was not reborn spiritually, we ourselves have no hope of being born again: The Holy Ghost is just showing me some stuff. I’m getting dizzy! I’m telling you the truth—it’s just heavy right now on me… Do you know what the word “begotten†means? It means reborn. Don’t let anyone deceive you. Jesus was born again.â€
C. Significance of Begotten
But, does the term “begotten†mean “born-again?†Once again, the answer is no. The term “begotten†in this context simply means “born,†and is in no way synonymous with the word “reborn.â€
The biblical concept of being “reborn†(cf. John 3:3) applies uniquely to sinful humankind, never to the sinless Son of God. John 1:14 speciï¬cally refers to Jesus as “the only begotten from the Father†(NASB). Such a person has no need to be born again, for He is, always has been, and ever will be undiminished deity (John 1:1).
Where did such a teaching originate? It has no biblical basis. The only conceivable reason for concocting such a belief is to validate the faulty belief that Jesus became a sinner on the cross—and as such had to be born again.
IV. Reincarnation
Kenneth Hagin writes, “Every man who has been born again is an incarnation. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus.â€
The reincarnation of Christ is arguably the greatest of all atonement atrocities. According to Faith theology, Jesus came in flesh as merely a man. On the cross He was reincarnated as a satanic being. In hell he was
reincarnated once again from demonic to divine.
TBN founder Paul Crouch writes, “That is when His divinity returned.†To say that Jesus’ “divinity returned†presumes that there was a point when Christ was no longer God. But such assertion is unbiblical (Philippians 2:6; cf Hebrews 13:8).
A. Insurmountable Obstacles
At least three obstacles invalidate the idea of reincarnation.
First, one can only be incarnated if one existed prior to having a body. While preexistence is taught among the cults, it is foreign to the kingdom of Christ.
Second, to suggest that we are as much an incarnation as was Jesus is to place humankind on par with God. Third, if “Gods reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself,†we would inhabit a polytheistic planet.
B. Error Begets Error
Creflo Dollar writes, “The day that Jesus was resurrected He became the first begotten Son of God—born again from spiritual death to life.â€
According to Benny Hinn, “you [in your present incarnation] are a little god …a little messiah walking on earth.â€
V. The Biblical Definition of the Atonement
The atonement is understood primarily as the vicarious suffering and sacrifice of Jesus that makes salvation for humankind possible. As such, the atonement is primarily soteriological in its intent and scope.
A. Biblical Basis
Throughout the New Testament, Christ is consistently presented as having borne the sin of humankind on the cross.
B. Theological Assessment
There are several themes upon which the atonement is understood:
1) Christ was the perfect sinless sacrifice
2) Christ paid the penalty for sin
3) Christ established a new covenant
4) Christ won the victory over all enemies at the cross, not in hell
Such references clearly indicate that the primary essence of the atonement is soteriological. |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/18/18 12:43 pm
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| Re: OTCP 1... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | f Jesus was made sin, then He clearly could not have God's nature since, by definition, God has no sin |
Exactly the same argument made by Islam. Heresy. This kind of junk makes Catholicism look better than Charismatics. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3139
1/18/18 12:53 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron - you appear to cross into Nestorianism in your reply to OTCP. Could you take a step back and expound on your view/understanding of the hypostatic union so that you are not misinterpreted? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
1/18/18 1:14 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
The WoF concept of the atonement is in reality just a crude application of the unscriptural penal substitution (PS) theory. PS was indeed taught by the Magisterial Protestant Reformers, and is still pretty much the majority, default view in evangelicalism today, as unscriptural as it is.
That said, WoF teachers take PS to, shall we say, new depths. In doing so, they reduce it to a total absurdity, insisting that Christ literally became sinful, impregnated with evil itself, and that His ‘spiritual death’ required that He be born again in Hell. The thing that WoFers even fail to acknowledge, however, is that for Jesus to have fully paid the penalty due us for sin, He would have of necessity had to remain in absolute torment in Hell for all eternity, not just three days.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/18/18 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/18/18 1:56 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| I gave an informed exegetical response, Brad/Aaron. Aaron, you asked for a scriptural challenge and I offered one. Lots a stuff can be said to have scriptural support, like Mormonism's baptism for the dead. But you boys know the good Book has gotta be handled correctly, i.e., hermeneutically and exegetically solid. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15565
1/18/18 1:58 pm
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| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | f Jesus was made sin, then He clearly could not have God's nature since, by definition, God has no sin |
Exactly the same argument made by Islam. Heresy. This kind of junk makes Catholicism look better than Charismatics. |
Uncle JD, Islam argues that Jesus was not God because God cannot die. And also, well, there's only ONE God (they don't get the whole Trinitarian argument--of course, neither do we, but that's another debate).
Apparently, all you will need to do, JD, to determine if you are a heretic is ask yourself this: Can God DIE?
Of course, the answer is no. Which is precisely why Jesus HAD to take become human flesh, since it was the only way God could experience death. That is, it was the HUMAN part of Jesus that died, certainly not the divine part, since that would be impossible.
The human part of Jesus experienced life as we do, but without sin. As I pointed out in the statement to OTCP, if Jesus was made sin in the literal sense (which I do not tend to believe, since I take it as symbolic), then it was certainly only the human part of Him, and not the divine part.
Also, please keep in mind that I am NOT arguing that everything WOF says is true. I am simply pointing out that it is a fair take on scripture. After all, if you take it literally that Jesus became sin, you are forced to conclude, it would seem, that, indeed, Jesus (the human part of Him) BECAME sin (He did not COMMIT sin, of course).
I do understand why that would be considered heresy. But while I am convinced that it is problematic, I am not convinced that it is heretical (in that it IS a literal take on the scriptures--something we claim to hold to, for that most part). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/18/18 1:59 pm
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