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 Word of Faith being taught in Sunday School- What should I do? |
diakoneo |
Since I left full time pastoral work, we have been attending a Church of God that is very close to my home. Very convenient. When we began, we attended Sunday School and they were going through Joyce Myer's book Battlefield of the Mind. Most of her stuff is palpable and I tolerated it. I like the pastor and his wife. I have known them for a few years. He has never preached anything in the pulpit that I would consider WoF.
Recently the Sunday School began a "study" of a book by Kenneth Hagin on prayer. I don't want to go there anymore. I have not really felt a true connection to the church since we began going, but as I said it is very convenient.
So, how would you handle it? Would you leave without saying anything? Would you just tell him, "we are leaving but not because of anything you have done" and make some kind of vague remark? Would you tell him you don't abide word of faith doctrine and can't walk together with the congregation?
At times as a pastor, I was very disheartened when people would leave, especially if they didn't tell me why. What would you say? Apparently they(pastor and his wife) believe this way even though he has never preached any of it.
I really hate bouncing from church to church but I think we settled to quickly the first time because of convenience. I will probably go to the local A/G church. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/16/18 6:13 pm
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UncleJD |
| If you have the pastor's ear, at least tell him your concerns about WOF "doctrine". Like you said, you would at least want to know why, and the real "why" would be more help to him than a vague statement. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
1/16/18 6:16 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
In my experience, it really depends on how far they go with WoF and how dogmatic they are about it. I once had a great pastor whom I still consider a dear friend who definitely leaned WoF. However, when we really discussed one-on-one WoF doctrine, it became clear that he definitely wasn’t hard core WoF at all. I was especially relieved when he said he didn’t believe the ‘Jesus Died Spiritually and had to be born again/Redeemed in Hell’ doctrine.
I would probably schedule a meeting with him about it, maybe over lunch or for coffee, in a relaxed setting, and just ask him about specific doctrines which concern you. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/16/18 7:40 pm
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| Re: Word of Faith being taught in Sunday School- What should I do? |
Dean Steenburgh |
| diakoneo wrote: | Since I left full time pastoral work, we have been attending a Church of God that is very close to my home. Very convenient. When we began, we attended Sunday School and they were going through Joyce Myer's book Battlefield of the Mind. Most of her stuff is palpable and I tolerated it. I like the pastor and his wife. I have known them for a few years. He has never preached anything in the pulpit that I would consider WoF.
Recently the Sunday School began a "study" of a book by Kenneth Hagin on prayer. I don't want to go there anymore. I have not really felt a true connection to the church since we began going, but as I said it is very convenient.
So, how would you handle it? Would you leave without saying anything? Would you just tell him, "we are leaving but not because of anything you have done" and make some kind of vague remark? Would you tell him you don't abide word of faith doctrine and can't walk together with the congregation?
At times as a pastor, I was very disheartened when people would leave, especially if they didn't tell me why. What would you say? Apparently they(pastor and his wife) believe this way even though he has never preached any of it.
I really hate bouncing from church to church but I think we settled to quickly the first time because of convenience. I will probably go to the local A/G church. |
Hey Bro, I have a question for you: is it really the WoF thing or is it something else?
If you were a senior pastor before & you had folks take off for unknown reasons then you already know what I'm going to say ...tell the pastor the truth.
Week before Thanksgiving my children's pastor walked in on a Sunday morning, dropped off his church files, laptop & some resources & told me this was his last day & he was gone. Out of the blue, no warning, no explanation, assured me it wasn't due to anything I had done ...yeah right!!! He had even been a senior pastor of a church for a few years & did well. After they resigned & due to having young kids they decided they wanted to do kids ministry ...it was a huge blessing until he pulled this on us.
Through the grape vine I heard it was due to me not letting him preach as often as he would have liked to preach here at the church.
I'm just asking, is it really the WoF thing or could it be something else?
One of my good pastor friends here locally is a WoF pastor & his church is 4X bigger than mine. He's a great guy & we have worshipped together on occasion. Nothing weird has ever happened. There are no "secret order of the sci-fi googoo doll head spinner" manifestations going on just because of a difference in doctrine.
My gosh dude I'm sure the devil isn't preparing this church a special place in hell just because of a Sunday school class curriculum decision.
Re-consider your choice, sit back & give them a 90 day time frame to see if things have a chance to change.
Even if they do teach some of the stuff it doesn't mean it's all bad. The stuff QW talked about would be hard to tolerate but I don't think it's worth leaving over.
While at some of their services I've sat through some odd-ball things but so far it hasn't been anything to trip over. The essentials of salvation have been taught & adhered to so no danger of apostasy so far lol.
I'm already secure in my own faith & beliefs so it's not like it's going to make me re-think my own theology.
If you're determined to leave at least meet with him & lay it out for him, he might be thinking of a different course of action in the coming months & your input could be valuable.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/18 9:15 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Reasons why I would have to take my family out of a WoF-leaning church, probably after talking these things over with the pastor:
1. If they taught the Jesus died spiritually and had to be born again in Hell doctrine—this one is pure intolerable blasphemy.
2. If they taught that the believer’s words have creative power similar to God’s words, that one may ‘speak things into existence,’ as they say. Otherwise stated as “You can have what you say.â€
3. If they taught that a believer, in this life, should rightfully expect to ‘live in divine health,’ (meaning, they would never get sick if they just had the right kind of faith).
4. If they taught that it was God’s will for all true believers to have overflowing wealth and riches in this life.
5. If they taught that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Hagin, Sr., Creflo Dollar, Fred Price, or E.W. Kenyon were especially graced with divine revelation concerning faith, and that to question the doctrines taught by these and others like them was equivalent to “touching God’s anointed.â€
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/17/18 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/16/18 9:48 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Reasons why I would have to take my family out of a WoF-leaning church, probably after talking these things over with the pastor:
1. If they taught the Jesus died spiritually and had to be born again in Hell doctrine—this one is pure intolerable blasphemy.
2. If they taught that the believer’s words have creative power similar to God’s words, that one may ‘speak things into experience,’ as they say. Otherwise stated as “You can have what you say.â€
3. If they taught that a believer, in this life, should rightfully expect to ‘live in divine health,’ (meaning, they would never get sick if they just had the right kind of faith).
4. If they taught that it was God’s will for all true believers to have overflowing wealth and riches in this life.
5. If they taught that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Hagin, Sr., Creflo Dollar, Fred Price, or E.W. Kenyon were especially graced with divine revelation concerning faith, and that to question the doctrines taught by these and others like them was equivalent to “touching God’s anointed.†|
I would agree with most of this but I would tend to believe that our words when spoken by faith in prayer do have the ability to effect change.
"We have not because we ask not."
I would however concede that we don't simply speak things into existence just because it makes things easier on us.
I got to spend about 10 days with Fred Price one time & I can assure you he doesn't lift himself up & he uses a lot of common sense teachings from the Word. I know he's big time WoF but God had to do a miracle big time for there to be a Crenshaw Christian Center & for it to be debt free, especially where it is located.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
1/16/18 10:22 pm
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Da Sheik |
| I would shoot straight with him. He likely knows what’s going on, but perhaps he has no idea what’s going on with this Sunday School class. I have had teachers go rogue over the years and I would have loved to have been privy in the early stages. He may likely lose other members if this continues unchecked. You stated that he doesn’t preach heresy from the pulpit so I think you owe him this much if you consider him a friend. But I’m sure you have a pulse on the situation. If you feel the pastor would simply get offended, then use your best judgment. I just know I always appreciate it when someone gives me honest feedback about why they’re leaving. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
1/16/18 10:41 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| I would absolutely have a problem with a SS class usin a Hagin book as its source, lessen they was usin it to critique error. Same for books by Joyce Meyer, Copeland, Paula White, Benny Hinn, etc |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
1/17/18 3:55 am
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| Re: Word of Faith being taught in Sunday School- What should I do? |
bradfreeman |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Since I left full time pastoral work, we have been attending a Church of God that is very close to my home. Very convenient. When we began, we attended Sunday School and they were going through Joyce Myer's book Battlefield of the Mind. Most of her stuff is palpable and I tolerated it. I like the pastor and his wife. I have known them for a few years. He has never preached anything in the pulpit that I would consider WoF.
Recently the Sunday School began a "study" of a book by Kenneth Hagin on prayer. I don't want to go there anymore. I have not really felt a true connection to the church since we began going, but as I said it is very convenient.
So, how would you handle it? Would you leave without saying anything? Would you just tell him, "we are leaving but not because of anything you have done" and make some kind of vague remark? Would you tell him you don't abide word of faith doctrine and can't walk together with the congregation?
At times as a pastor, I was very disheartened when people would leave, especially if they didn't tell me why. What would you say? Apparently they(pastor and his wife) believe this way even though he has never preached any of it.
I really hate bouncing from church to church but I think we settled to quickly the first time because of convenience. I will probably go to the local A/G church. |
Hey Bro, I have a question for you: is it really the WoF thing or is it something else?
If you were a senior pastor before & you had folks take off for unknown reasons then you already know what I'm going to say ...tell the pastor the truth.
Week before Thanksgiving my children's pastor walked in on a Sunday morning, dropped off his church files, laptop & some resources & told me this was his last day & he was gone. Out of the blue, no warning, no explanation, assured me it wasn't due to anything I had done ...yeah right!!! He had even been a senior pastor of a church for a few years & did well. After they resigned & due to having young kids they decided they wanted to do kids ministry ...it was a huge blessing until he pulled this on us.
Through the grape vine I heard it was due to me not letting him preach as often as he would have liked to preach here at the church.
I'm just asking, is it really the WoF thing or could it be something else?
One of my good pastor friends here locally is a WoF pastor & his church is 4X bigger than mine. He's a great guy & we have worshipped together on occasion. Nothing weird has ever happened. There are no "secret order of the sci-fi googoo doll head spinner" manifestations going on just because of a difference in doctrine.
My gosh dude I'm sure the devil isn't preparing this church a special place in hell just because of a Sunday school class curriculum decision.
Re-consider your choice, sit back & give them a 90 day time frame to see if things have a chance to change.
Even if they do teach some of the stuff it doesn't mean it's all bad. The stuff QW talked about would be hard to tolerate but I don't think it's worth leaving over.
While at some of their services I've sat through some odd-ball things but so far it hasn't been anything to trip over. The essentials of salvation have been taught & adhered to so no danger of apostasy so far lol.
I'm already secure in my own faith & beliefs so it's not like it's going to make me re-think my own theology.
If you're determined to leave at least meet with him & lay it out for him, he might be thinking of a different course of action in the coming months & your input could be valuable. |
This is really, really good.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
1/17/18 7:18 am
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diakoneo |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | I would shoot straight with him. He likely knows what’s going on, but perhaps he has no idea what’s going on with this Sunday School class. I have had teachers go rogue over the years and I would have loved to have been privy in the early stages. He may likely lose other members if this continues unchecked. You stated that he doesn’t preach heresy from the pulpit so I think you owe him this much if you consider him a friend. But I’m sure you have a pulse on the situation. If you feel the pastor would simply get offended, then use your best judgment. I just know I always appreciate it when someone gives me honest feedback about why they’re leaving. |
1. He knows it is going on. He has sat in on a couple of classes. This class is in the sanctuary.
2. He hasn't preached heresy from the pulpit. No.
3. The one who is teaching is a long term member of this church. Probably more than 30 years. She is well respected in the church.
4. She has referenced other books as she teaches (as if she has taught from these books in the past). So it is an ongoing thing.
5. I could just skip Sunday School... |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/17/18 8:35 am
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| Re: Word of Faith being taught in Sunday School- What should I do? |
diakoneo |
| Dean Steenburgh wrote: |
Hey Bro, I have a question for you: is it really the WoF thing or is it something else?
If you were a senior pastor before & you had folks take off for unknown reasons then you already know what I'm going to say ...tell the pastor the truth.
Week before Thanksgiving my children's pastor walked in on a Sunday morning, dropped off his church files, laptop & some resources & told me this was his last day & he was gone. Out of the blue, no warning, no explanation, assured me it wasn't due to anything I had done ...yeah right!!! He had even been a senior pastor of a church for a few years & did well. After they resigned & due to having young kids they decided they wanted to do kids ministry ...it was a huge blessing until he pulled this on us.
Through the grape vine I heard it was due to me not letting him preach as often as he would have liked to preach here at the church.
I'm just asking, is it really the WoF thing or could it be something else?
One of my good pastor friends here locally is a WoF pastor & his church is 4X bigger than mine. He's a great guy & we have worshipped together on occasion. Nothing weird has ever happened. There are no "secret order of the sci-fi googoo doll head spinner" manifestations going on just because of a difference in doctrine.
My gosh dude I'm sure the devil isn't preparing this church a special place in hell just because of a Sunday school class curriculum decision.
Re-consider your choice, sit back & give them a 90 day time frame to see if things have a chance to change.
Even if they do teach some of the stuff it doesn't mean it's all bad. The stuff QW talked about would be hard to tolerate but I don't think it's worth leaving over.
While at some of their services I've sat through some odd-ball things but so far it hasn't been anything to trip over. The essentials of salvation have been taught & adhered to so no danger of apostasy so far lol.
I'm already secure in my own faith & beliefs so it's not like it's going to make me re-think my own theology.
If you're determined to leave at least meet with him & lay it out for him, he might be thinking of a different course of action in the coming months & your input could be valuable. |
Good words Dean. You probably know there is always more than meets the eye. As I said we chose this church more out of convenience than anything. I am not looking for a pulpit. No. Never felt like I needed one.
I sent you a private message. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/17/18 8:47 am
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diakoneo |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Reasons why I would have to take my family out of a WoF-leaning church, probably after talking these things over with the pastor:
1. If they taught the Jesus died spiritually and had to be born again in Hell doctrine—this one is pure intolerable blasphemy.
2. If they taught that the believer’s words have creative power similar to God’s words, that one may ‘speak things into existence,’ as they say. Otherwise stated as “You can have what you say.â€
3. If they taught that a believer, in this life, should rightfully expect to ‘live in divine health,’ (meaning, they would never get sick if they just had the right kind of faith).
4. If they taught that it was God’s will for all true believers to have overflowing wealth and riches in this life.
5. If they taught that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Hagin, Sr., Creflo Dollar, Fred Price, or E.W. Kenyon were especially graced with divine revelation concerning faith, and that to question the doctrines taught by these and others like them was equivalent to “touching God’s anointed.†|
Definitely |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/17/18 8:57 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Does your Sunday School have any discussion - or is it really a lecture series - with no class input. If it has a discussion - state your case why it's off base and let the discussion begin. With a Hagin book as your guide - it should be very easy to point out the things that are "left out".
Now - I usually teach Sunday School - and I am not in the "audience" very often. But I regularly let those in the audience have input...and I won't attend a Sunday School that doesn't let everyone participate.
And they sometimes disagree with me. They know I let them say their opinion - I give mine - and I let everyone else believe whatever they want.
I do facilitate the discussion so we don't get bogged down - because I am going to get all my points in that I have planned outside of a clear change of direction from the Holy Spirit.
I have Word of Faith members in the class... who stay in the class because I let them state their opinion (which I usually refute - but never in an embarrassing way.)
No need to leave the church over it - until they tell you to sit down and shut up.
Then you move on.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
1/17/18 9:38 am
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Cojak |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Does your Sunday School have any discussion - or is it really a lecture series - with no class input. If it has a discussion - state your case why it's off base and let the discussion begin. With a Hagin book as your guide - it should be very easy to point out the things that are "left out".
Now - I usually teach Sunday School - and I am not in the "audience" very often. But I regularly let those in the audience have input...and I won't attend a Sunday School that doesn't let everyone participate.
And they sometimes disagree with me. They know I let them say their opinion - I give mine - and I let everyone else believe whatever they want.
I do facilitate the discussion so we don't get bogged down - because I am going to get all my points in that I have planned outside of a clear change of direction from the Holy Spirit.
I have Word of Faith members in the class... who stay in the class because I let them state their opinion (which I usually refute - but never in an embarrassing way.)
No need to leave the church over it - until they tell you to sit down and shut up.
Then you move on. |
To me, this is Sunday School. It is such a pleasure having a great teacher who knows 'how to facilitate'. I once attended a church that broadcast the morning service (before TV). At the same time we had one of the BEST SS teachers (a natural teacher), I often thought his SS class should have been broadcast vs morning service, it was that good.
This comment brought back some great memories. I have known 2 other Teachers who were retired preachers, but did not want the pulpit and knew how to have a discussion, a BLESSING to the pastor.
THANKS NBF
But back to the original post. There may be a problem with the teacher of this class not being able to accept another opinion on the table, in that case a discussion becomes an argument, and not productive. (from the SS chair) 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
1/17/18 11:23 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Cojak wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Does your Sunday School have any discussion - or is it really a lecture series - with no class input. If it has a discussion - state your case why it's off base and let the discussion begin. With a Hagin book as your guide - it should be very easy to point out the things that are "left out".
Now - I usually teach Sunday School - and I am not in the "audience" very often. But I regularly let those in the audience have input...and I won't attend a Sunday School that doesn't let everyone participate.
And they sometimes disagree with me. They know I let them say their opinion - I give mine - and I let everyone else believe whatever they want.
I do facilitate the discussion so we don't get bogged down - because I am going to get all my points in that I have planned outside of a clear change of direction from the Holy Spirit.
I have Word of Faith members in the class... who stay in the class because I let them state their opinion (which I usually refute - but never in an embarrassing way.)
No need to leave the church over it - until they tell you to sit down and shut up.
Then you move on. |
To me, this is Sunday School. It is such a pleasure having a great teacher who knows 'how to facilitate'. I once attended a church that broadcast the morning service (before TV). At the same time we had one of the BEST SS teachers (a natural teacher), I often thought his SS class should have been broadcast vs morning service, it was that good.
This comment brought back some great memories. I have known 2 other Teachers who were retired preachers, but did not want the pulpit and knew how to have a discussion, a BLESSING to the pastor.
THANKS NBF
But back to the original post. There may be a problem with the teacher of this class not being able to accept another opinion on the table, in that case a discussion becomes an argument, and not productive. (from the SS chair) |
Cojak ,
I just wish I went to Aaron's church and he is teaching Sunday School - and I am Ronald Reagan and say a hundred times during the lesson "There you go again..."
That would be a lesson to remember.
NBF
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
1/17/18 12:01 pm
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| Here's what I would do... |
Aaron Scott |
Many years ago, I went to a Clint Brown Judah Conference. We had a wonderful time. On the last night, they had three different choirs perform. Each was very different from the others, but my brother and I realized that we could not say who was "the best." Why? Because they EACH were at the top of their game. It was a matter of musical style preference only in determining the choir that was the best.
The same with most WOF teaching. You have to understand that people ALWAYS paint other beliefs in the darkest colors they can. That is, we all likely know some good Calvinists. Oh, but some of us will act like "they think you can be a flaming homosexual and still go to heaven." No. That's no more true of the vast number of Calvinists than the claim that Pentecostals are "a bunch of snake handlers." See how we like to find the most extreme cases and act like they are all in on it?
WOFers love the Lord. The TRUTH is that while they may have some positions that we don't agree with, they still can make a fair case from the scriptures about those beliefs. Again, there are extremists that go far beyond, but consider whether you agree with the following:
1) Do you think that if we had the faith, we would see a whole lot more healings? So do WOFers.
2) Do you believe that God wants us to prosper and be in health? So do WOFers.
3) Do you believe that when we speak under the power of the Holy Ghost that things MUST happen? Or do you believe it's about like flipping a coin--it may happen, it may not? Well, if you believe that when you are speaking under the anointing, heaven backs you up, then welcome to the "dark side" (so to speak).
Isn't it ludicrous that we, Pentecostals, have so much trouble with believing what seems to be backed up be scripture. Have you noticed that in the scriptures, there are all kinds of crazy miracles, but that TODAY, when we don't see those kinds of miracles, we act like God may not want to heal someone? Oh, it's not US!!! No siree, bob! It's God. Or, if not God, it's the fact that the person wanting prayer has too little of faith.
WAIT A MINUTE!!! That sounds just like what NON-WOFers say, doesn't it? That if a person doesn't get healed, it's not OUR fault--it's because of God...or perhaps the person didn't have the faith.
You know, I'd rather blame myself or the person than blame God. Because I believe we SHOULD aspire to such great moves of God, instead of find excuses for why we aren't seeing what others saw.
My point is this: If you are afraid you will be "infected" with WOFer disease...well, I'd rather have a WOFer than a DOUBTER or EXCUSE MAKER.
You aren't going to be tainted with horrible doctrine. You should clearly be of the maturity level to add a moderating influence on anything extreme. That should also serve to inoculate you from anything too far out.
I mean, it IS still OK to believe that God is willing to heal us all, right?
If you are running from this because of WOF, you may have some misunderstanding of it. Because while Hagin may have some rough edges on his stuff, pretty much everything I've ever heard him preach (admittedly, not a whole lot, but enough to be representative, I believe), he backs up with the Word. In fact, he'll quote more Word than most preachers I know.
The sky is NOT falling. Unless you have other reasons that you want to leave, don't leave over WOF teaching...unless you can absolutely refute it with scripture (and, no, you can't). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/17/18 12:09 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| There you go again...🧠|
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/17/18 12:15 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There you go again...🧠|
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
1/17/18 12:24 pm
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Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There you go again...🧠|
Moi?  |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
1/17/18 1:03 pm
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| Re: Here's what I would do... |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Unless you have other reasons that you want to leave, don't leave over WOF teaching...unless you can absolutely refute it with scripture (and, no, you can't). |
You may not be able to refute it, Aaron, because you have tendencies in that direction. OTCP, on the other hand, can refute woffie theology all day long. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
1/17/18 1:35 pm
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