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 About Trump's statement abut blankety-blank countries.... |
Aaron Scott |
I hard someone make a distinction I had not drawn...and I have to admit that they have a point.
I had pointed out that it's not wrong to want the very best people coming to our country--even if, at the same time, we also offer some degree of refuge for those who come from countries that, for the most part, are deeply troubled countries. I think everyone, even pastors, likely want very good people to come to their churches. By that I don't mean we want "already saved" folks, but rather that we don't want fruitcakes, pastor-killers, etc. Fair enough?
Well, I heard a guy on CNN make the point that there's nothing wrong with America wanting, say, engineers to come to our country. But what we should mean by that is "engineers from ANY country--even those blankety-blank countries." He said that he felt that that making it about engineers (or people) from only certainly countries was "racist."
I think he had a point. At the same time, I think a nation can get such a bad reputation for itself that, indeed, we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth.
Likewise, because so many black nations tend to have considerable turmoil and the such, we can make similar assumptions that are unfair. I do not think that Trump meant to make such a point. I think he was simply pointing out that nations that are in such turmoil OBVIOUSLY have plenty of folks with a strong incentive to want to come here--even if they have nothing to offer.
It was certainly short-sighted of the president to say that, but I don't believe it was intended as racist. Of course, with all the division in our political system today, if Trump said Jesus was Lord, someone would likely claim that he was discriminating against Muslims, etc. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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1/14/18 4:05 pm
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| Re: About Trump's statement abut blankety-blank countries.... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I hard someone make a distinction I had not drawn...and I have to admit that they have a point.
I had pointed out that it's not wrong to want the very best people coming to our country--even if, at the same time, we also offer some degree of refuge for those who come from countries that, for the most part, are deeply troubled countries. I think everyone, even pastors, likely want very good people to come to their churches. By that I don't mean we want "already saved" folks, but rather that we don't want fruitcakes, pastor-killers, etc. Fair enough?
Well, I heard a guy on CNN make the point that there's nothing wrong with America wanting, say, engineers to come to our country. But what we should mean by that is "engineers from ANY country--even those blankety-blank countries." He said that he felt that that making it about engineers (or people) from only certainly countries was "racist."
I think he had a point. At the same time, I think a nation can get such a bad reputation for itself that, indeed, we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth.
Likewise, because so many black nations tend to have considerable turmoil and the such, we can make similar assumptions that are unfair. I do not think that Trump meant to make such a point. I think he was simply pointing out that nations that are in such turmoil OBVIOUSLY have plenty of folks with a strong incentive to want to come here--even if they have nothing to offer.
It was certainly short-sighted of the president to say that, but I don't believe it was intended as racist. Of course, with all the division in our political system today, if Trump said Jesus was Lord, someone would likely claim that he was discriminating against Muslims, etc. |
But what did he actually say? Do we know? Do we take the word of a known liar like Durbin?
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
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1/14/18 4:11 pm
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| Re: About Trump's statement abut blankety-blank countries.... |
Cojak |
Aaron has some good points. for many years immigrants for the most percentage had to have a skill or money to establish a business. There have always been humanitarian immigrants, but not all .
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | ...
But what did he actually say? Do we know? Do we take the word of a known liar like Durbin? |
You are at the he said he said, and he said I didn't. Some saying NO, some saying YES.
In a case like this I would probably think he said it. I don't think he has a vocabulary large enough to have put it in a political spin line. The whole thing bothers me mostly because if he did, someone thought. MAN THIS IS GREAT! The heck with the country, this is another nail in his coffin.
Politics as usual in the last couple years. I don't know Durbin but I don't think he is a complete liar on every thing, if so he would be gone. Most politicians have lied but in a way it didn't sound so bad. If I was forced to say what I feel, I would have to say he probably did, just from his language history. Just like his denials. It seems to be working in politics. 
Actually it doesn't matter either way now. WE who will give some slack will, those will give no slack won't. You will change neither side. 
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jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24284
1/14/18 5:32 pm
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| Resident... |
Aaron Scott |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | I hard someone make a distinction I had not drawn...and I have to admit that they have a point.
I had pointed out that it's not wrong to want the very best people coming to our country--even if, at the same time, we also offer some degree of refuge for those who come from countries that, for the most part, are deeply troubled countries. I think everyone, even pastors, likely want very good people to come to their churches. By that I don't mean we want "already saved" folks, but rather that we don't want fruitcakes, pastor-killers, etc. Fair enough?
Well, I heard a guy on CNN make the point that there's nothing wrong with America wanting, say, engineers to come to our country. But what we should mean by that is "engineers from ANY country--even those blankety-blank countries." He said that he felt that that making it about engineers (or people) from only certainly countries was "racist."
I think he had a point. At the same time, I think a nation can get such a bad reputation for itself that, indeed, we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth.
Likewise, because so many black nations tend to have considerable turmoil and the such, we can make similar assumptions that are unfair. I do not think that Trump meant to make such a point. I think he was simply pointing out that nations that are in such turmoil OBVIOUSLY have plenty of folks with a strong incentive to want to come here--even if they have nothing to offer.
It was certainly short-sighted of the president to say that, but I don't believe it was intended as racist. Of course, with all the division in our political system today, if Trump said Jesus was Lord, someone would likely claim that he was discriminating against Muslims, etc. |
But what did he actually say? Do we know? Do we take the word of a known liar like Durbin? |
Resident, I support Trump's presidency over a Hillary presidency, but we are not well-served if we act like he can't be a total jerk. I mean, we already KNOW that he says the "grab 'em..." line. That right there tells you the type of person we are dealing with--a very coarse one.
I know he's a billionaire, and that likely has given him the leeway to pretty much insult anyone, say anything, etc., and not really get hurt by it.
Here's why I think he said it though.... First, it's not at all out of line with his coarseness.
Second, it's not at all out of line with his general type of thinking about immigration. I don't believe he meant it as a racist statement, but it was instead a rather hurtful generalization along the lines of "bad people tend to come from bad countries."
Third, and this one is the kicker, WHO IN THE WORLD "can't recall" if someone says something as inflammatory as that??? Yes, the Democrats would lie in a minute to hurt Trump--and I have no doubt that many have. But let's not act like GOP (God's Own Party!) wouldn't also lie through their teeth (but in a way that won't get them in trouble for lying) by claiming "I don't recall." If they can't recall something that soon from a meeting, then they are the ones with mental issues, not Trump. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/14/18 10:20 pm
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UncleJD |
How exactly is bringing in engineers with far lower wage expectations to compete with Americans "America first"? Just asking as an engineer who hasn't got a pay raise in 10 years because of the foreign competition both abroad and at home.
Further to that point, how is taking the best and brightest out of poor countries a good thing? Does that somehow make the rest of those people who can't get out better off because they lost the best and brightest?
The age of immigration began to end once our expansion west was completed. Its not a socio-economic or racial issue, its just the fact that the frontier closed, its a geo-political thing. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
1/15/18 11:59 am
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| Re: About Trump's statement abut blankety-blank countries.... |
bradfreeman |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | . . . we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth. |
This is, by definition, prejudice.
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Acts-dicted
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1/15/18 1:23 pm
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| Re: About Trump's statement abut blankety-blank countries.... |
Resident Skeptic |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | . . . we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth. |
This is, by definition, prejudice. |
I'm very prejudiced against all Muslims. I love them as people, and would never mistreat any. But as far as being allowed to come here, it was a huge mistake letting them.
Then again, "prejudice" is something not based on reason. Thus, I guess prejudiced is not the way to describe my feelings towards Muslims as they are indeed based on reason.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 1/15/18 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
1/15/18 2:10 pm
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| Re: Resident... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | I hard someone make a distinction I had not drawn...and I have to admit that they have a point.
I had pointed out that it's not wrong to want the very best people coming to our country--even if, at the same time, we also offer some degree of refuge for those who come from countries that, for the most part, are deeply troubled countries. I think everyone, even pastors, likely want very good people to come to their churches. By that I don't mean we want "already saved" folks, but rather that we don't want fruitcakes, pastor-killers, etc. Fair enough?
Well, I heard a guy on CNN make the point that there's nothing wrong with America wanting, say, engineers to come to our country. But what we should mean by that is "engineers from ANY country--even those blankety-blank countries." He said that he felt that that making it about engineers (or people) from only certainly countries was "racist."
I think he had a point. At the same time, I think a nation can get such a bad reputation for itself that, indeed, we tend to lump everyone--even the best of the bunch--into a group to which we attach all sorts of negative stereotypes. It's about like saying that an engineer from Jordan is a terrorist, when that person might be one of the most decent folks on earth.
Likewise, because so many black nations tend to have considerable turmoil and the such, we can make similar assumptions that are unfair. I do not think that Trump meant to make such a point. I think he was simply pointing out that nations that are in such turmoil OBVIOUSLY have plenty of folks with a strong incentive to want to come here--even if they have nothing to offer.
It was certainly short-sighted of the president to say that, but I don't believe it was intended as racist. Of course, with all the division in our political system today, if Trump said Jesus was Lord, someone would likely claim that he was discriminating against Muslims, etc. |
But what did he actually say? Do we know? Do we take the word of a known liar like Durbin? |
Resident, I support Trump's presidency over a Hillary presidency, but we are not well-served if we act like he can't be a total jerk. I mean, we already KNOW that he says the "grab 'em..." line. That right there tells you the type of person we are dealing with--a very coarse one.
I know he's a billionaire, and that likely has given him the leeway to pretty much insult anyone, say anything, etc., and not really get hurt by it.
Here's why I think he said it though.... First, it's not at all out of line with his coarseness.
Second, it's not at all out of line with his general type of thinking about immigration. I don't believe he meant it as a racist statement, but it was instead a rather hurtful generalization along the lines of "bad people tend to come from bad countries."
Third, and this one is the kicker, WHO IN THE WORLD "can't recall" if someone says something as inflammatory as that??? Yes, the Democrats would lie in a minute to hurt Trump--and I have no doubt that many have. But let's not act like GOP (God's Own Party!) wouldn't also lie through their teeth (but in a way that won't get them in trouble for lying) by claiming "I don't recall." If they can't recall something that soon from a meeting, then they are the ones with mental issues, not Trump. |
| Quote: | | Third, and this one is the kicker, WHO IN THE WORLD "can't recall" if someone says something as inflammatory as that??? |
Further clarification of the remark proves it was not said in the context you insist. Not "recalling" is the same as saying, "Hey! Wait a minute! I was there and I do not remember anything like that being said".
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 1/15/18 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
1/15/18 2:12 pm
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Cojak |
| UncleJD wrote: | How exactly is bringing in engineers with far lower wage expectations to compete with Americans "America first"? Just asking as an engineer who hasn't got a pay raise in 10 years because of the foreign competition both abroad and at home.
Further to that point, how is taking the best and brightest out of poor countries a good thing? Does that somehow make the rest of those people who can't get out better off because they lost the best and brightest?
The age of immigration began to end once our expansion west was completed. Its not a socio-economic or racial issue, its just the fact that the frontier closed, its a geo-political thing. |
Very good comment JD, it is a different time than the 1800-early 1900's when They needed freedom and a future and we needed people, workers and folks with dreams.
There comes a time it would be good to look back at a speech made in England by a politician what he forsaw in England's future if they did not get a handle on immigration. It was labled the 'River of Blood Speech' many years ago, now what he predicted appears to be coming to pass. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24284
1/15/18 2:14 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Trump is trying to change our immigration system - to not allow the uneducated and unemployable to be the lion's share of immigration.
When he saw that had not been addressed - he asked why we needed so many from countries that can't help America - because let's face it - if you are unemployable - you and your children become a burden to our Welfare system - which, based on our debt, is not really an option anymore.
Yes - some can get the opportunity - but there is a limit to how many we can take.
Trump is trying to delineate those numbers.
He used inflammatory language when the problem is a serious one that should have had sober discussions regarding how to solve them.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
1/15/18 2:31 pm
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Cojak |
All you have to do is look across the pond to see some of Europe with weak/no immigration plans to see what our problem is going to be in a few years.
I just read of problems in the UK with the universal health care, many long time citizens 'wait' for beds. One friend had to drive 75-90 KM to see his sick mum, it was the nearest bed.
Surely it can be seen we do need some strong 'Enforced' immigration controls.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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1/15/18 3:26 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Trump is trying to change our immigration system - to not allow the uneducated and unemployable to be the lion's share of immigration.
When he saw that had not been addressed - he asked why we needed so many from countries that can't help America - because let's face it - if you are unemployable - you and your children become a burden to our Welfare system - which, based on our debt, is not really an option anymore.
Yes - some can get the opportunity - but there is a limit to how many we can take.
Trump is trying to delineate those numbers.
He used inflammatory language when the problem is a serious one that should have had sober discussions regarding how to solve them. |
Again, there is no disagreement that the discussion got heated. Nobody is denying that. What is being disputed needlessly is what exactly Trump said in the heated discussion. But let's not forget WHY the discussion got heated to begin with. The proposal given to Trump by the gang of 6 was a total joke, an insulting piece of legislation that did nothing to achieve the ends demanded by those who voted for Trump. It rightfully made the President angry, and I'm glad he stood up to them. But what does Durban do? Does he try to resolve the conflict? Does he address valid concerns of a large segment of the populace? NO! He uses the occasion to bring forth false charges of racism against Trump.
Your criticism against Trump is grossly misplaced. The one in the meeting using inflammatory language was Durban, who focused in on how terms like "chain migration" might remind someone of slavery (which is one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard) instead of dealing with the real issue.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
1/15/18 4:48 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
The accusation is that Trump called these countries of origin "s---hole countries".
Today, Senator Cotton said he did not hear Trump use that term "about individuals or about persons". Cotton is a lawyer, and that Clintonian parsing would make the best (or worst) of 'em proud. You're necessarily saying it about individuals and persons if you say it about someone's country, in my opinion, but the specific report is that Trump called countries s---holes, not any individual or person.
Cotton's Clintonian parsing is another nail in the coffin. Trump said it. Let's move on.
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/01/15/tom-cotton-shtholegate-didnt-hear-trump-use-derogatory-language-individuals-persons/ |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/15/18 5:20 pm
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UncleJD |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | You're necessarily saying it about individuals and persons if you say it about someone's country, in my opinion,... |
I like you Dave, but I couldn't disagree more on that point. There are a lot of people that I grieve over having to live in countries like Haiti, Libya, NK, etc.. I will call their countries horrible (because I don't want to be crass), but their people are victims. An opinion about a country does NOT reflect as much on the people as it reflects on their government. Sorry, I just think you're WAY off here. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3145
1/15/18 5:39 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| UncleJD wrote: | | I like you Dave, but I couldn't disagree more on that point. There are a lot of people that I grieve over having to live in countries like Haiti, Libya, NK, etc.. I will call their countries horrible (because I don't want to be crass), but their people are victims. An opinion about a country does NOT reflect as much on the people as it reflects on their government. Sorry, I just think you're WAY off here. |
That's a totally reasonable disagreement. I think if I made a post about what a s---hole the South is with a bunch of statistics about literacy, poverty, education, economic output, welfare utilization, income, etc. posters here would take it really personally. That's all I'm saying. My post could still be interpreted as you said as a criticism of the government, but who voted for the government? That defense only works for places where the government is not democratically elected, which it is in Haiti and a lot of places in Africa. But I certainly think it's reasonable to disagree.
What's not in question, IMO, is that Trump said it about the countries based on the Clintonian statements of the Republicans who were there, and that was the main point I wanted to make. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/15/18 5:47 pm
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UncleJD |
| Fair enough Dave. I think my biggest concern is that if Trump does fail, then so does any chance of real conservative gains in this country for a generation. I hate that it comes down to him to be honest (I didn't want to nominate him), when at best I believe he is a new convert to conservatism. I don't take him as a great Christian example or leader like his detractors here seem to think I must since I defend him. I do think he has become very open to real conservative principles since he has seen the vitriol from the Dems (whom at one time in his life he probably had more in common with). I do pray that he is somehow successful and I don't think praying for his demise, resignation or impeachment will ultimately benefit this country at all. Ultimately he may indeed be capable of saying something exactly as reported by the dems, but I will not give them the benefit of the doubt when they have shown to be false at every possible turn as long as it benefits them. Bottom line for me is God help our nation and God help our President. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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1/15/18 7:39 pm
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Cojak |
Aaron said:..... Third, and this one is the kicker, WHO IN THE WORLD "can't recall" if someone says something as inflammatory as that??? Yes, the Democrats would lie in a minute to hurt Trump--and I have no doubt that many have.
The folks I worked with in DC in government (GS-15-GS-18)would not have batted an eye at what Trump said if they were not looking for "That next knife to throw at his back".
That language is only inflammatory when "Thrown out to the public." That language behind closed doors without the cameras and recorders going is CRASS to the church world. The S, F,GD words are thrown around like you would say Dadgummit or shiucks! My wife who also worked there came home exasperated at the language in high level meetings. She said, "I have worked around sailors and Soldiers who had better language."
(High level, but of course not Presidential or congressional, but folks who worked with them, budget wise.) My department printed the budget.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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1/15/18 10:13 pm
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