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 Would every sinner in your town... |
bradfreeman |
Would every sinner in your town feel comfortable reclining at a meal with the Jesus you preach?
Would you or the crowd you've been training grumble if He received them and made them feel comfortable?
Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." Luke‬ â€15:1, 2‬
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1/11/18 8:43 am
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| Re: Would every sinner in your town... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: | Would every sinner in your town feel comfortable reclining at a meal with the Jesus you preach?
Would you or the crowd you've been training grumble if He received them and made them feel comfortable?
Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." Luke‬ â€15:1, 2‬ |
Just for clarification - where did it say the sinners were comfortable?
They came for differing reasons - does it say they came to feel comfortable?
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1/11/18 10:44 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Would they be called to repentance?
And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?†And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.†Luke 5:30-32 |
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Posts: 13654
1/11/18 11:21 am
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skinnybishop |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Would they be called to repentance?
And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?†And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.†Luke 5:30-32 |
You don't have to repent...You just have to have faith. :D
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Eddie Wiggins |
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1/11/18 12:53 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Would they be called to repentance?
And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?†And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.†Luke 5:30-32 |
You bet they would! What was the change in thinking He was calling them to?
The law told sinners and tax collectors (and the sick as well) they were outsiders, cursed and rejected by God. Jesus very presence eating and drinking with sinners offended the pharisees because they wanted the sinners and tax collectors to feel rejected, not loved, welcomed and accepted. Jesus reclining at dinner with them changed the way they thought (repentance) about God (that He was against them), and called them to faith in God.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/11/18 2:26 pm
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| Re: Would every sinner in your town... |
bradfreeman |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | Would every sinner in your town feel comfortable reclining at a meal with the Jesus you preach?
Would you or the crowd you've been training grumble if He received them and made them feel comfortable?
Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." Luke‬ â€15:1, 2‬ |
Just for clarification - where did it say the sinners were comfortable?
They came for differing reasons - does it say they came to feel comfortable? |
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.†Mat 11:19
I'm comfortable around my friends.
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Luke 7:34
And it happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him. Mark 2:15
When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, “Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?†Mark 2:16
I don't usually recline with, eat and drink with or follow people I'm uncomfortable with...I avoid them.
Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. Mat 9:10
Where does it say He made sinners uncomfortable? He made the religious uncomfortable, but not sinners.
I imagine they came and ate and drank and reclined with Jesus because they felt loved and He was preaching Good News!
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/11/18 2:35 pm
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bradfreeman |
| skinnybishop wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | Would they be called to repentance?
And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?†And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.†Luke 5:30-32 |
You don't have to repent...You just have to have faith.  |
SkinnyB, repentance is translated from the Greek metanoia, it literally means to change (meta) your knowledge (noia)...the change the way you think or to change what you know. The change for the Hebrew crowd Jesus was addressing was from relying on religious works that could never produce life (dead works) to faith toward God.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance [i]from dead works and of faith toward God, [/i]
Reliance on dead works is what they were turning from.
Faith in God is what they were turning toward.
So repentance is the move from works to faith in God.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 1/11/18 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1/11/18 2:45 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Jesus reclining at dinner with them changed the way they thought (repentance) about God (that He was against them), and called them to faith in God. |
Hoo, boy. That is something else. |
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Posts: 13654
1/11/18 2:48 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Jesus reclining at dinner with them changed the way they thought (repentance) about God (that He was against them), and called them to faith in God. |
Hoo, boy. That is something else. |
God reclined with them. God ate and drank with them. God befriended them.
He is amazing. The religious of His day grumbled about it too! 
He freely offered the guilty no condemnation.
He freely forgave sins (every time) without any apology, repentance, confession or promise to do better.
He freely healed those the Law would say were sick because of sin.
He freely fed those the Law would say were poor because of sin.
Jesus modeled this:
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/11/18 3:10 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I've been working on memorizing Romans with one of my pastors. We are almost to chapter 11.
Could you share Romans 2:5? Or 2:8? Or 2:9? Or 2:12-13? |
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1/11/18 3:17 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | I've been working on memorizing Romans with one of my pastors. We are almost to chapter 11.
Could you share Romans 2:5? Or 2:8? Or 2:9? Or 2:12-13? |
Memorizing scripture is good. The Spirit helps us understand it.
Romans 2 is nearing the end of Paul bringing all, including those who would operate under the Law and pass judgment on the Romans 1 crowd (see Rom 2:1,2), to the end of themselves, to the end of reliance on our deeds (our many wonderful works) as the way to gain acceptance from God.
Do you think the Rom 2 verses you cited mean that the blood of Jesus means nothing with regard to our deeds?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/11/18 4:02 pm
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| Re: Would every sinner in your town... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: |
Where does it say He made sinners uncomfortable?
I imagine they came and ate and drank and reclined with Jesus because they felt loved and He was preaching Good News! |
You're the one that said they were comfortable...not me. I don't think the scripture says either way.
I don't make it a habit to add to the scriptures.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
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1/11/18 4:35 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Memorizing scripture is good. |
It inoculates you against teaching that takes a verse from here and a verse from there to say something the Bible doesn't say, that's for sure. 
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Romans 2 is nearing the end of Paul bringing all, including those who would operate under the Law and pass judgment on the Romans 1 crowd (see Rom 2:1,2), to the end of themselves, to the end of reliance on our deeds (our many wonderful works) as the way to gain acceptance from God. |
Right, so, back to Romans 2:5. Could you unpack this in light of your statement that repentance/metanoia means "changing your mind about whether or not God is against you"? Could you do the same for the other verses I mentioned that follow Paul's description of how God's kindness graciously leads us to this repentance? |
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1/11/18 5:03 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | | Memorizing scripture is good. |
It inoculates you against teaching that takes a verse from here and a verse from there to say something the Bible doesn't say, that's for sure.
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Romans 2 is nearing the end of Paul bringing all, including those who would operate under the Law and pass judgment on the Romans 1 crowd (see Rom 2:1,2), to the end of themselves, to the end of reliance on our deeds (our many wonderful works) as the way to gain acceptance from God. |
Right, so, back to Romans 2:5. Could you unpack this in light of your statement that repentance/metanoia means "changing your mind about whether or not God is against you"? Could you do the same for the other verses I mentioned that follow Paul's description of how God's kindness graciously leads us to this repentance? |
There are just 2 paths - one leading to life and one leading to destruction.
There are just 2 trees - one leading to life and one leading to death.
There are just 2 men - one in whom all will be made alive, one in whom all will die.
We either obey the truth (believe it and experience righteousness - see Gal 5:7 in context for more on what it means to obey the truth) or we obey unrighteousness (try to find life by our own effort).
God's desire is for us to experience life. He is freely offering it apart from our Good and Evil. In fact, He never wanted us to feel like we needed it to be like Him.
When we choose the knowledge of Good and Evil, when we choose to pass judgment, we are judged by our Good and Evil and we experience all the death and destruction that comes from separating ourselves from life.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 1/12/18 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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1/12/18 7:29 am
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | It inoculates you against teaching that takes a verse from here and a verse from there to say something the Bible doesn't say, that's for sure. |
I wish that were true. It's the Spirit that leads you into truth.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/12/18 7:31 am
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Dave Dorsey |
OK. I can see you don't want to interact with the text.
Love ya anyway Brad, hope you have a good day and a relaxing weekend. |
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1/12/18 7:52 am
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bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | OK. I can see you don't want to interact with the text.
Love ya anyway Brad, hope you have a good day and a relaxing weekend. |
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
17 But if you bear the name “Jew†and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,†just as it is written.
I addressed verse 8 in my last post...but I'll give you a bit more.
You asked about 9, 12 and 13. My response is the same. Paul is concluding all under sin Jew (those with the Law) and Gentile (those without the Law). You can't properly understand this passage in a vacuum. It has to be read in the larger context of the book of Romans and the NT. Verse 8, for example, says you either "obey the truth" or "obey unrighteousness". Those who obey unrighteousness experience "wrath and indignation." The clear implication is that those who "obey the truth" won't experience wrath or indignation. Romans 5 tells us how we avoid His wrath and His anger...so Romans 5 tells us (as does Gal 5:7) what it means to "obey the truth" (as does Rom 6:16-18 and Rom 10:5-17).
Rom 5:1 says our faith has brought us into peace with God...He's not indignant.
Rom 5:7 says His blood has saved us from wrath.
Rom 5:10 says its His life that saves us from these things.
Rom 2:12,13 simply conclude all under sin (as does Rom 3:10 and 3:23) and as Paul says in Galatians 3:10,11 no one is a successful "doer of the Law."
As for His kindness, tolerance and patience to those in this condition, Paul addresses this in the next chapter:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
At the present time, our condemnation comes only if we reject Christ.
At the present time, our justification comes only if we believe.
Which part would you like further explanation on? I love interacting with the text!
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/12/18 10:46 am
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| Re: Would every sinner in your town... |
Link |
| bradfreeman wrote: | Would every sinner in your town feel comfortable reclining at a meal with the Jesus you preach?
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They'd probably feel weird reclining on an elbow to eat.
I did that to eat some young goat, bread, rice, and dips a couple of weeks ago. It was really good.
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1/13/18 5:28 am
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| Probably not: |
Mark Ledbetter |
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worth of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." - Matthew 10:34-39.
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" - Matthew 16:24-26.
"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." - Luke 14:33
"...In the wold you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." - John 16:33
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." - Philippians 2:5-8
"Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." - 2 Corinthians 4:16-18.
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Posts: 2109
1/13/18 10:45 pm
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| Re: Probably not: |
bradfreeman |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worth of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." - Matthew 10:34-39.
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" - Matthew 16:24-26.
"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." - Luke 14:33 |
How could the drunkards, whores and tax collectors hear these passages and still want to eat and drink with Jesus?
How are these passages Good News?
Paul described the meaning of these passages beautifully in Phil 3 (and in 1 Cor 3 when he said folks would suffer the loss of all the wood/hay/stubble that grows from the earth/flesh in the judgment).
Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, 4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
He told his readers that he counted his father and mother (Benjamin), brothers and sisters (Hebrews) and his whole life (pharisee, zealous persecutor, blameless law-keeper) but rubbish and that he suffered the loss of all of that to win Christ.
In other words, he repented.
He changed his mind about what it took to be righteous.
He denied himself and forsook his own life and received the life of God.
He forsook His Jewishness, His training, His zeal and His blameless law-keeping as the basis for right-standing with God and embraced the gift of righteousness that comes on the basis of faith.
This is not bad news for sinners.
It's Good News for sinners, for the weak, the foolish, the ungodly and those born on the wrong side of Judaism.
This is comforting to Gentiles, and to those who finally discover they can't blamelessly keep the law - the ungodly.
It's discomforting to those who are still confident in the flesh...their heritage, their church membership, their zeal, their blameless law-keeping and their "many wonderful works".
This is the repentance that made Paul's enemies those "of his household."
This is the tribulation Paul faced daily from his own people.
This is the suffering of Christ Paul shared in.
When you finally abandon, deny, lose and forsake all confidence in the flesh and put all your confidence in the finished work of Christ, you'll be free from the shame, condemnation, frustration and pride the flesh produces. You'll be free indeed.
This is Good News.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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1/15/18 7:42 am
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