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 Why Does the Bible Seemingly "Approve" of Lying in Some Cases? |
Aaron Scott |
I've mentioned before how the midwives in Egypt lied to Pharaoh about why the male children were not being killed...and God blessed those women.
Now, I find that Jehu seemingly lied about wanting to offer a great sacrifice to Baal (2 Kings 10:19), when actually he wanted to get all the prophets of Baal in one place so he could kill them. The Bible calls it "subtlety," but most of us would likely call it something else.
Seemingly God approved--or at least it was presented as a good thing.
Your thoughts? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/3/18 4:01 pm
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Cojak |
This is like putting the cat back in the bag or opening a can of worms.
I have heard that there is a 'deep hidden' belief in the LDS church that 'lying for the Lord' if okay.
I have heard the Harlot of Jerico used.
Cannot cite any NT examples. "Cept me maybe"  Having misrepresented the truth or tap dancing around the truth!
I have known a couple pastors to do that.
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Posts: 24284
1/3/18 10:32 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
The midwives lying in order to protect innocent life from an evil, unjust Pharoah’s decree is not hard to justify. There is never any moral obligation for anyone to be complicit in the slaughter of innocent babies.
The issue of Jehu may be a bit more complicated, but in any case the same passage says that Jehu did not serve the Lord wholeheartedly. It is no secret that God uses unrighteous people to carry out His sovereign purposes. That fact in no way would justify lying in general, any more than the fact that the Lord used evil men to bring about the crucifixion of Jesus would somehow justify murder in general.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/4/18 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12813
1/4/18 8:05 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron,
Perhaps a Christian Ethics class is in order for you.
Those types of scenarios are discussed there.
Is there a "hierarchy" of sins - where you choose the "lesser of two sins"?
The OT indeed has some examples.
Perhaps even the NT had some examples.
Hitler gives you a gun - and tells you to go to the next city and kill some Jews - or he kills your family -and then goes to the city himself and kills those Jews. You go to the city. He calls and asks "Did you kill them?" - what is your answer?
Pretty easy for me. I don't owe the murderous villain anything - including the truth.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
1/4/18 9:08 am
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Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Aaron,
Perhaps a Christian Ethics class is in order for you.
Those types of scenarios are discussed there.
Do they discuss whether you can tell a little white lie to keep from deeply hurting someone's feelings?
I mean, if you can tell a flat-out whopper to save lives...surely just a teeny, little fib--more like a "fibbette"--can be used when one's wife asks "Does it look like I've gained weight?" Right? Or when someone brings you a liver casserole then asks whether you liked it?
Is there a "hierarchy" of sins - where you choose the "lesser of two sins"?
The OT indeed has some examples.
Perhaps even the NT had some examples.
Wait. Are you telling me that Christian Ethics deals with the same thing as REGULAR ETHICS courses??? What is this madness?
Is it like where you have to choose whether, say, to kill one person to save 10...or to choose whether to kill a family member in order to save 50 other folks? Stuff like that? YOU DON'T SAY!!!
Hitler gives you a gun - and tells you to go to the next city and kill some Jews - or he kills your family -and then goes to the city himself and kills those Jews. You go to the city. He calls and asks "Did you kill them?" - what is your answer?
Pretty easy for me. I don't owe the murderous villain anything - including the truth.
The issue is not what you owe Hitler, but what you might owe God. That is the point I am trying to have discussed. I think we all agree that it's possibly even our DUTY to lie to save innocent lives. But does that have ramifications for the Christian's standing before God? If it's your DUTY, can it be sinful? Etc.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/4/18 11:36 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Aaron,
Perhaps a Christian Ethics class is in order for you.
Those types of scenarios are discussed there.
Do they discuss whether you can tell a little white lie to keep from deeply hurting someone's feelings?
I mean, if you can tell a flat-out whopper to save lives...surely just a teeny, little fib--more like a "fibbette"--can be used when one's wife asks "Does it look like I've gained weight?" Right? Or when someone brings you a liver casserole then asks whether you liked it?
Is there a "hierarchy" of sins - where you choose the "lesser of two sins"?
The OT indeed has some examples.
Perhaps even the NT had some examples.
Wait. Are you telling me that Christian Ethics deals with the same thing as REGULAR ETHICS courses??? What is this madness?
Is it like where you have to choose whether, say, to kill one person to save 10...or to choose whether to kill a family member in order to save 50 other folks? Stuff like that? YOU DON'T SAY!!!
Hitler gives you a gun - and tells you to go to the next city and kill some Jews - or he kills your family -and then goes to the city himself and kills those Jews. You go to the city. He calls and asks "Did you kill them?" - what is your answer?
Pretty easy for me. I don't owe the murderous villain anything - including the truth.
The issue is not what you owe Hitler, but what you might owe God. That is the point I am trying to have discussed. I think we all agree that it's possibly even our DUTY to lie to save innocent lives. But does that have ramifications for the Christian's standing before God? If it's your DUTY, can it be sinful? Etc.
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Again, Christian Ethics - which is not the same as regular ethics - for the very reason you question it - is a class you can take probably as an online course from Lee - where you will freely discuss these things.
How you treat your neighbor is how you treat God (how you do it unto the least of these - is how you do it unto me). Hitler is a murderous villain - I owe him nothing - and I don't believe God believes I owe him anything.
There are others that feel differently.
Military men that shoot invaders - don't consider it murder - because they are defending other folks from being murdered.
I was recently at the Holocaust museum in DC where there is an honor roll of folks that saved Jews. One lady, a young housekeeper, saved 18 Jews by hiding them in the attic or cellar of the Gestapo major she worked for. (The rest of that neighborhood had all Jews "liquidated".) Unfortunately, he found out but agreed to keep the secret if she "serviced" him regularly. She did. 18 Jews lived due to that action.
Was fornication ok to stop 18 murders...19 if you include she was a goner, as well for hiding them. (the lesser of two sins)
Irene Gut Opdyke (the housekeeper) (b. 1921) felt it was.
The Jews agreed with her.
I agree with her.
Are you too holy to agree with her?
Is there a third way - where you don't help killers but don't lie either? Perhaps - but I am convinced not always.
When you face that situation - you will be glad you took the class where you can resolve these issues in your mind before being confronted with them and perhaps feeling guilt later.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
1/4/18 1:45 pm
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Da Sheik |
I don’t adhere to situational ethics but a wise person once told me something that rings true to me. “Sometimes people do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reasons. “
The Pharisees fasted and prayed for the wrong reason(s)
Rahab and the midwives lied for the right reason(s) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1865
1/4/18 1:56 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Da Sheik wrote: | I don’t adhere to situational ethics but a wise person once told me something that rings true to me. “Sometimes people do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Sometimes people do the wrong thing for the right reasons. “
The Pharisees fasted and prayed for the wrong reason(s)
Rahab and the midwives lied for the right reason(s) |
I don't like situational ethics as a term - but life puts us into situations.
And ethics determines what we do in those situations.
When I was younger - I thought everything would be black and white - and while in a Christian Ethics class - I took a hard line against any rule breaking. I have rethought that as I got older.
Look - it is easy to recast everything as a "good reason" why I did a certain sin. I often rationalize those things myself. Yet 99% of the time those are indeed sins that God still says flee from.
But when you can keep from breaking a commandment one way or another - when you can't flee - the other 1% of the ethical dilemmas ... if there is a higher ethical or moral reasoning for breaking a commandment (killing an intruder (murder?) if they break into your home) - then I choose the higher moral action over the lesser.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16641
1/4/18 2:11 pm
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Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Aaron,
Perhaps a Christian Ethics class is in order for you.
Those types of scenarios are discussed there.
Do they discuss whether you can tell a little white lie to keep from deeply hurting someone's feelings?
I mean, if you can tell a flat-out whopper to save lives...surely just a teeny, little fib--more like a "fibbette"--can be used when one's wife asks "Does it look like I've gained weight?" Right? Or when someone brings you a liver casserole then asks whether you liked it?
Is there a "hierarchy" of sins - where you choose the "lesser of two sins"?
The OT indeed has some examples.
Perhaps even the NT had some examples.
Wait. Are you telling me that Christian Ethics deals with the same thing as REGULAR ETHICS courses??? What is this madness?
Is it like where you have to choose whether, say, to kill one person to save 10...or to choose whether to kill a family member in order to save 50 other folks? Stuff like that? YOU DON'T SAY!!!
Hitler gives you a gun - and tells you to go to the next city and kill some Jews - or he kills your family -and then goes to the city himself and kills those Jews. You go to the city. He calls and asks "Did you kill them?" - what is your answer?
Pretty easy for me. I don't owe the murderous villain anything - including the truth.
The issue is not what you owe Hitler, but what you might owe God. That is the point I am trying to have discussed. I think we all agree that it's possibly even our DUTY to lie to save innocent lives. But does that have ramifications for the Christian's standing before God? If it's your DUTY, can it be sinful? Etc.
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Again, Christian Ethics - which is not the same as regular ethics - for the very reason you question it - is a class you can take probably as an online course from Lee - where you will freely discuss these things.
Ethics is pretty much ethics. Most people would not accept an ethical system that was contrary to the basics of morality. (But, yes, I have studied all sort of ethics--had to with my major.)
How you treat your neighbor is how you treat God (how you do it unto the least of these - is how you do it unto me). Hitler is a murderous villain - I owe him nothing - and I don't believe God believes I owe him anything.
NBF, I absolutely agree with this. The fact that God BLESSED the midwives..and apparently felt highly about Jehu for his actions against Baal, etc....has led me to think that there are exceptions to every commandment...except Love God and Love Your Neighbor as Yourself.
But while most of us will NEVER have to deal with a situation in which we are torn between competing commandments (e.g., Thou Shalt Not Lie vs. Love Your Neighbor As Yourself), I find it interesting that we also seem fearful of even mentioning the possibility, since it might lead...to dancing.
In truth, I imagine that we don't mention it because it not only can blur the lines between black and white, but because, again, it is unlikely to occur. I have a theory that actually no one needs to be told, for they will do what they think to be the "rightest" thing, regardless. That is, I cannot imagine anyone saying to a genocidal Nazi, "I cannot tell a lie. Yes, I am hiding Jewish fugitives in the basement."
But while we might not teach that, we also seem reluctant to even discuss the fact that the Bible has (a term someone else mentioned here) situational ethics. In fact, virtually all ethics are situational! They are used or discarded depending on the situation. Of course, we may draw the line at different places in terms of just what changes are justified, etc.
There are others that feel differently.
Military men that shoot invaders - don't consider it murder - because they are defending other folks from being murdered.
I was recently at the Holocaust museum in DC where there is an honor roll of folks that saved Jews. One lady, a young housekeeper, saved 18 Jews by hiding them in the attic or cellar of the Gestapo major she worked for. (The rest of that neighborhood had all Jews "liquidated".) Unfortunately, he found out but agreed to keep the secret if she "serviced" him regularly. She did. 18 Jews lived due to that action.
Was fornication ok to stop 18 murders...19 if you include she was a goner, as well for hiding them. (the lesser of two sins)
Oddly enough, I think I heard that the Talmud (or some Jewish commentary) said that only two of the ten commandments were sacrosanct: Serving only God and not committing adultery. But in the case you are referencing, though you indicate fornication, it might be that the same situation would justify adultery? That seems very difficult to accept...but when weighted against the potential deaths of that many people...maybe?
Irene Gut Opdyke (the housekeeper) (b. 1921) felt it was.
The Jews agreed with her.
I agree with her.
Are you too holy to agree with her?
Well, as I have said here and before, I do believe there are exceptions to the Ten Commandments (at least to nine of them). Which is why I have mentioned the midwives before, I believe...AND why Jehu's situation caught my attention.
Is there a third way - where you don't help killers but don't lie either? Perhaps - but I am convinced not always.
Agreed. IF you can do what needs to be done WITHOUT breaking the commandments, you obviously should take that path. But otherwise, you must do what is the highest good (least bad?).
When you face that situation - you will be glad you took the class where you can resolve these issues in your mind before being confronted with them and perhaps feeling guilt later. |
Now let's press the point....
At what level do we agree that it's acceptable to lie? Is it ONLY to spare human life? Apparently not, since Jehu "lied" to TAKE non-innocent lives.
Is it the size of the lie...or the size of the potential disaster that matters most?
While a big lie may be acceptable to spare innocent life, is a "little" lie acceptable to spare someone's feelings? If not, why not? If so, why so?
Where is the line between "Thou Shalt Not Lie" and "OK, this time you can lie"? It clearly has something to do with the situation. But what situations are acceptable and which are not?
Your thoughts? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/4/18 4:49 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
.....and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
What is that? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
1/4/18 5:56 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
An what about lyin on ya preachers an church reports? Does God allow that?
Pastoral Visits: 397 (Only made 17 actual visits, but the nursing home had 360 residents)
MW Attendance: 110 (young'uns church was counted twice; an the choir walked out an come in the front door so they was counted twice)
Do You Pay Tithe? Yes (ya mark it as tithe, but it ain't but 3% a ya income) |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
1/4/18 7:11 pm
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Link |
Jeremiah 38
24 Then Zedekiah said to Jeremiah, “Let no one know of these words, and you shall not die. 25 But if the princes hear that I have talked with you, and they come to you and say to you, ‘Declare to us now what you have said to the king, and also what the king said to you; do not hide it from us, and we will not put you to death,’ 26 then you shall say to them, ‘I presented my request before the king, that he would not make me return to Jonathan’s house to die there.’â€
27 Then all the princes came to Jeremiah and asked him. And he told them according to all these words that the king had commanded. So they stopped speaking with him, for the conversation had not been heard.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/6/18 5:03 pm
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diakoneo |
| Link wrote: | Jeremiah 38
24 Then Zedekiah said to Jeremiah, “Let no one know of these words, and you shall not die. 25 But if the princes hear that I have talked with you, and they come to you and say to you, ‘Declare to us now what you have said to the king, and also what the king said to you; do not hide it from us, and we will not put you to death,’ 26 then you shall say to them, ‘I presented my request before the king, that he would not make me return to Jonathan’s house to die there.’â€
27 Then all the princes came to Jeremiah and asked him. And he told them according to all these words that the king had commanded. So they stopped speaking with him, for the conversation had not been heard. |
Good one Link!
Jeremiah followed the advice of a wicked King to save both of them.
I remember when reading The Hiding Place and Corrie ten Boom refused to lie to the Nazis. It would have saved countless lives but she refused.
Is it okay to lie to the Nazis? Would it have been better? God is working all things together for good. That much we know. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
1/7/18 8:17 am
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Link |
Some people paraphrase 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor' as 'Thou shalt not lie.' I think that is inaccurate. Bearing false witness against thy neighbor is a narrower category of lying.
There are other scriptures against lying.
Exodus 23:7
Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked.
(ESV)
Looks like it's about bearing false witness in court in that verse.
This is more general
Leviticus 19:11
You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.
(ESV)
The Lord hates lying lips. (Proverbs 12:22.)
Colossians 3:9 says not to lie to one another.
Colossians
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
1/8/18 1:56 am
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Aaron Scott |
| Link wrote: | Jeremiah 38
24 Then Zedekiah said to Jeremiah, “Let no one know of these words, and you shall not die. 25 But if the princes hear that I have talked with you, and they come to you and say to you, ‘Declare to us now what you have said to the king, and also what the king said to you; do not hide it from us, and we will not put you to death,’ 26 then you shall say to them, ‘I presented my request before the king, that he would not make me return to Jonathan’s house to die there.’â€
27 Then all the princes came to Jeremiah and asked him. And he told them according to all these words that the king had commanded. So they stopped speaking with him, for the conversation had not been heard. |
It may be that that is not a lie. In other words, it could be that Jeremiah DID make such a request.
For instance, let's say that you are a pastor and are trying out for a church in Orlando. If you go to Disney while you're there, then, the following morning, preach at the church...well, if someone at your church wants to know what you were doing in Orlando, you could truthfully reply, "We went to Disney." That is, you aren't obligated (except under oath in a trial) to necessarily tell the questioner every single thing you did in Orlando ("...and then we went to McDonald's, and I ordered a Big Mac meal with a Diet Coke, my wife ordered a small hamburger, a fruit cup, and a small Coke, and my six children ordered...."
Make sense? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/8/18 9:25 am
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| For that matter, how about when Moses told Pharaoh... |
Aaron Scott |
| We just want to go out in the wilderness and worship God? How many believe that's was actually all that was intended? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6039
1/8/18 9:26 am
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