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 Secrecy in New pastor selection |
Cojak |
I do not know when COG pastors started using the “Resume’†and preached ‘try-out- sermons. But the two churches we call home church, are seeking new pastors. One in NC and the other in Florida. We visited NC just before Christmas and I asked who was being presented to the church and ‘No one could tell me, it is a secret??????? WHAT? I was told that is the way the overseer wants it. I asked about one name and was told since I brought it up, ‘yes that name was presented,’ but that does not mean he will ‘try-out’.
We returned to the church in Florida and was told by the greeter that we did not have a pastor. (we hadn't been gone over 2 weeks) He had announced one Sunday and was gone the next week. He pastors Live Oak now. I enjoyed his ministry and I could hear him. Imma gonna miss him. Who is coming here? No one knows, it is a secret. Two ‘unnamed wonderful men’ will try out on the 7th and 14th of January.
Odd that is the same dates at our church in NC.
The Clerk did tell me we could vote in NC via e-mail as absentee, I am happy about that!
We are not members in FL, so we will not be voting there. But I am thinking of a write in crusade and use all the dead and dying members e-mails to vote@!
Is the secrecy standard now? I know it wasn’t 11 years ago.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
12/26/17 9:45 pm
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| Re: Secrecy in New pastor selection |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Cojak wrote: | | I am thinking of a write in crusade and use all the dead and dying members e-mails to vote@! |
If you're going to write it in, it is spelled "OTCP." Me an momma will commence packin...............  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
12/26/17 9:50 pm
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diakoneo |
| The reason for secrecy is probably because of social media especially Facebook to "announce" what is going on in them. Maybe they want to protect the would be candidate as long as they can from being known by the church they pastor. They will also tell the congregation not to talk about it on social media. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
12/27/17 7:09 am
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| Cojak... |
Aaron Scott |
If there's one thing I've learned, it is that as soon as a new pastor has to be selected, it is often the case that some of the finest members of a church will become some of the most carnal! If they know the name(s) of those pastors who will be presented, well, if they don't prefer them, you can be sure that a "campaign" will be launched to let everyone else know why NOT to vote for them.
And if there is a person they DO prefer, they will talk that person up, up, up. Now, if you are the candidate that wins the vote (and if the overseer decides to go with the vote, as they usually do), and if it also happened to be God's will (I think that at least in some cases, it is not God's will), then all is well. But if you got voted down because someone made it their mission to either talk you down or get behind someone else...not so good.
We all like to know who is coming, but I have seen people that almost never attend church suddenly come out of the woodwork when a new pastor is on the horizon. Thus, these unfaithful ones can often drive the vote.
Thankfully, I believe most of the time the right--or at least a very good--pastor gets the vote. But, yeah, the try-out sermon and resume--the dog-and-pony show--shows you just the best side of the candidate. I have been fortunate to serve under pastors that I believe had a heart for the church that elected them. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/27/17 7:44 am
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Mat |
When it comes to calling a pastor there is a old saying that goes something like, "he who calls you god today will call you devil tomorrow." Or as the writer an old book called "Well-intentioned Dragons" wrote, look out for those who are there to help you unload the truck and who tell you how badly the church needed a pastoral change - they will be the first to turn on you.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/27/17 11:11 am
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Cojak |
Okay, I see you preachers are ganging up on me! hahahahahaha
Someone could at least whisper to me It is brother so and so, he stinks, and then say but don't tell anyone.!!!!!
Okay I do know both Aaron and Mat have good points, but it doesn't keep me from being upset.............
Aaron, 'dog and pony show.?' HA! I haven't heard that since I left the military.
In the 'olden days,' we had a very successful pastor in North Carolina, Ray Collins. He always, without exception, grew a large church. He was asked to Preach at the NC Camp Meeting once years ago. He stood up behind the pulpit, took a minute to look over the huge congregation, then said. "They tell me that if you are asked to preach at this Camp Meeting and want a larger church yourself, that sermon had better be a sermon that WORKS." he paused for just a few seconds and continue, "This one is slicker than a rat's tail!" If Ray was anything, he was honest and was loved.
That said, some members are impressed by a showman or wordsmith and the 'show sermon' is probably just that. How could I blame a pastor for that? I cannot, the administration has put him in that position of course he wants to do the best he can if he wants to pastor these people
Is there a better way?
I admired the last overseer. He lined up the candidates (4) on the rostrum. Each one had three minutes to give an introduction. Then a roving microphone went thru the congregation for questions for any or all candidates. It was pretty long, but the congregation didn't seem to mind. I had never seen that before, but we did get a good pastor out of it and he has been there 11 years. He is retiring this year. (I am sure in hindsight that pastor was also the one the Overseer preferred. He did get the vote.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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12/27/17 12:31 pm
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| Cojak... |
Aaron Scott |
I suppose that the truth is that if a pastor is wanting to move, and he is given the opportunity to "try out" for a church, it would be unreasonable to expect him to want to bring anything but his best game.
I heard that term "dog-and-pony-show" as a teacher. The principal would let us know that he was coming to our class on such-and-such a date, would be checking out our lesson plans, teaching ability, classroom management, etc. OF COURSE us teachers did our best to do our best on that day of all days! In fact, we could sometimes even tell the principal what period we wanted him/her to visit (they were giving us every chance to shine). Of course, we picked the best behaved classes for the most part.
Sometimes a pastor gets chosen because the church is "tired" of the process. That is, they've already had several try out, but none of them particularly impressed them, so they just took the next guy. Oddly enough, one of the best pastors I ever served under came late to the show. I wouldn't doubt that part of the reason he got the vote was we just wanted to get the matter settled. But we soon found that we had chosen one of the most diligent, thoughtful, and sincere men of God to be our pastor (along with his great family). I have no doubt that God was looking out for our church, even though we might have voted based on weariness, God helped us choose a real winner.
But like I said, the most saintly of members often becomes terribly carnal when it comes time to select a pastor. We may SAY that we all need to just pray about it...but folks like to make sure that you KNOW who to vote for (or not to vote for). I think it is fine to share your feelings, but too often it seems like it is more about convincing others to make the selection we want made. I think that sometime our selection is based more on "Hey, I know this guy" or "Hey, I know that other guy isn't a good fit," etc., instead of a word from the Lord.
Sometimes I wish that overseers would just appoint the next pastor. But the problem is that overseers seldom have a "word from the Lord" about who to send where. I believe that our overseers are well-intentioned and love the Lord, but if they know a good pastor who happens to be a friend, etc., it's hard to NOT choose him over someone they don't know at all. In other words, members or overseers, we are all likely just trying to do the best we know to do.
I doubt that few, if any, make a selection that they KNOW God isn't pleased with. At the same time, I tend to doubt that few, if any, make a selection that they KNOW is the one God wants. We just look through a glass darkly on these matters. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/27/17 4:00 pm
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| Re: Cojak... |
FLRon |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | If there's one thing I've learned, it is that as soon as a new pastor has to be selected, it is often the case that some of the finest members of a church will become some of the most carnal! If they know the name(s) of those pastors who will be presented, well, if they don't prefer them, you can be sure that a "campaign" will be launched to let everyone else know why NOT to vote for them.
And if there is a person they DO prefer, they will talk that person up, up, up. Now, if you are the candidate that wins the vote (and if the overseer decides to go with the vote, as they usually do), and if it also happened to be God's will (I think that at least in some cases, it is not God's will), then all is well. But if you got voted down because someone made it their mission to either talk you down or get behind someone else...not so good.
We all like to know who is coming, but I have seen people that almost never attend church suddenly come out of the woodwork when a new pastor is on the horizon. Thus, these unfaithful ones can often drive the vote.
Thankfully, I believe most of the time the right--or at least a very good--pastor gets the vote. But, yeah, the try-out sermon and resume--the dog-and-pony show--shows you just the best side of the candidate. I have been fortunate to serve under pastors that I believe had a heart for the church that elected them. |
And this is why I appreciated it when as the clerk my former SO who is now one of the 18 told me to prepare two lists of names before he came to take the vote for a new pastor. One List was of members who either hadn’t attended faithfully or hadn’t tithed faithfully. The other list contained the names of members who were faithful in both attendance and tithing.
While everyone was allowed to vote, guess whose votes actually got counted?
_________________
“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 768
12/28/17 5:43 pm
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| FL Ron... |
Aaron Scott |
| FLRon wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | If there's one thing I've learned, it is that as soon as a new pastor has to be selected, it is often the case that some of the finest members of a church will become some of the most carnal! If they know the name(s) of those pastors who will be presented, well, if they don't prefer them, you can be sure that a "campaign" will be launched to let everyone else know why NOT to vote for them.
And if there is a person they DO prefer, they will talk that person up, up, up. Now, if you are the candidate that wins the vote (and if the overseer decides to go with the vote, as they usually do), and if it also happened to be God's will (I think that at least in some cases, it is not God's will), then all is well. But if you got voted down because someone made it their mission to either talk you down or get behind someone else...not so good.
We all like to know who is coming, but I have seen people that almost never attend church suddenly come out of the woodwork when a new pastor is on the horizon. Thus, these unfaithful ones can often drive the vote.
Thankfully, I believe most of the time the right--or at least a very good--pastor gets the vote. But, yeah, the try-out sermon and resume--the dog-and-pony show--shows you just the best side of the candidate. I have been fortunate to serve under pastors that I believe had a heart for the church that elected them. |
And this is why I appreciated it when as the clerk my former SO who is now one of the 18 told me to prepare two lists of names before he came to take the vote for a new pastor. One List was of members who either hadn’t attended faithfully or hadn’t tithed faithfully. The other list contained the names of members who were faithful in both attendance and tithing.
While everyone was allowed to vote, guess whose votes actually got counted? |
That's a smart man, right there.
I heard that D.A. Biggs, former overseer of Florida, said something smart about the selection process. He said that no matter what decision he made, there would be people who liked him for it...and didn't like him for it.
While I have never served under a bad pastor (thank the Lord!), I have heard "tales" of some who have. But I am still convinced that at least 70-80% of the time, an appropriate pastor is selected. Whether he comes in by the vote of the people or that appointment of the overseer, I think that statistic is a very good one.
And, in truth, I don't know if any pastor I've known of was a "bad" pastor. I think that in many cases it was simply a case of being a poor fit. In other contexts, that pastor would have excelled (and perhaps later did). It is hard for me to think that ANY Church of God pastor has anything but the best of intentions. Sometimes, those intentions work for the church...and sometimes they don't. But like I said, besides being under my father for most of my life, I've been blessed to be under a number of good and even exceptional pastors--David Gant, Donald Rehmel, Aaron Robertson, Shane Smith, and others (some I served under only for a short time before moving to another city, etc., so I did not have a really thorough view, but even then, they all seemed like good folks). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/28/17 6:24 pm
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Da Sheik |
This is one of the issues I have with centralized government. The pastoral appointment process is inconsistent. I honestly don’t have a solution so I’m reluctant to be too critical without offering an alternative. I know there are exceptions, but generally speaking, I’m in favor of the local church being heavily involved in the selection process. They are the ones who are going to have to live with the long-term consequences of the pastoral appointment.
The exceptions would be those churches who are perennial “pastor-killersâ€. I believe they are the minority, but there are some churches who simply cannot be satisfied with anyone who is sent to them. I think some of these should be dissolved and/or merged with other churches. I often wonder how many young preachers end up leaving the ministry prematurely because they were appointed to one of these toxic churches. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
12/28/17 9:20 pm
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| Aaron Scott |
CannonMan |
Aaron,
You mentioned David Gant. After he retired, he served as my grandfather’s associate pastor in Merrit Island. He was a great friend to my family. I grew up with his grandkids (Hitte’s). And wow, could he play ping-pong. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 120
12/28/17 9:45 pm
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Cojak |
After reading the comments, the only thing I see that has real merit is the Social Media THING. Some folk do live on the net. I am on line too much but VERY little on FB. BUT my wife will fill me in on any big 'happenings', mentioned' and YES I am sure some would campaign or bad mouth the candidates.
As for the churches the candidates are now pastoring to know their pastor is looking 'elsewhere', it will hit the FB and other Social Media the week after the last 'dog and pony show' occurs. It is impossible then to keep that information quiet.
What I am told the is that the vote at both churches I mentioned will be taken the following Sunday, after the final candidate speaks. So no matter, you will have the media alive (if it is a younger church who know these media).
Just my take. But if you know who is trying out at E, Belmont NC or Sanford, FL please IM me. (I won't publish or tell anyone. PROMISE!)
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
12/28/17 10:10 pm
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Like A Tree |
Just my take. But if you know who is trying out at E, Belmont NC or Sanford, FL please IM me. (I won't publish or tell anyone. PROMISE!)
Don't forget Riverhills in Tampa Florida finally made the announcement of AW leaving. His last Sunday I think is Feb 11th or 18th? A lot of moving around this past GA and is still going on. What a year and a half!!!!!
I see all sides of how a new pastor is voted in and or appointed. Unfortunately there are pros and cons to both. If everything and everyone (elders and AB) are just honest and true things would go smoothly. Just way to much back scratching and deception a lot of times which don't make the right fit. Been there atleast 3 times with Riverhills. |
Member
Posts: 44
12/29/17 12:59 pm
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| Re: Aaron Scott |
Aaron Scott |
| CannonMan wrote: | Aaron,
You mentioned David Gant. After he retired, he served as my grandfather’s associate pastor in Merrit Island. He was a great friend to my family. I grew up with his grandkids (Hitte’s). And wow, could he play ping-pong. |
One of the best and brightest the Church of God ever produced, I think. At the age of around 90, he was still serving as a superb greeter back when Bro. Hitte was still in the theater.
He would occasionally send me a TYPED letter. EVERY SINGLE TIME it came at a moment when encouragement was needed. If anyone had the gift of encouragement it was him.
He was instrumental in my family moving from Tennessee to Florida. During a revival there, my dad was asked if he would be interested in renting the new, fully-furnished home of an elderly man in the church who had recently been widowed. We lived there for several years--until my dad became a pastor.
I consider the Melbourne church to be a highlight of my life. I think it was Ken Hitte, Sr. who was in a drama when I was a child. They had a stretcher with someone who had been in an accident (in the drama). When they died, a door at the side opened. The inside was papered with tin foil...and a bright red light was being reflected...and then the devil stepped out and...beckoned!
Even thought I was saved (I was probably 7 or  , I had a deep conversation with my mom that night (dad was away at revival). It truly impacted me. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/29/17 5:25 pm
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Clint Wills |
| diakoneo wrote: | | The reason for secrecy is probably because of social media especially Facebook to "announce" what is going on in them. Maybe they want to protect the would be candidate as long as they can from being known by the church they pastor. They will also tell the congregation not to talk about it on social media. |
This makes a TON of sense to me. When we went through the pastoral selection process about 14 months ago the elders made that decision with the state office. The church didn't vote at all...and I believe that was the right decision. I think our new pastor would have gotten the vote here without a problem, but we are in a VERY unchurched community and many of them would not have understood church membership permissions let alone what should be considered when selecting a new pastor. IMHO the elders got it right, and they should...they ARE the elders of the church. But I found out one Sunday, the church found out that Wednesday and his first Sunday was 1 1/2 weeks later. It was quick and handled very correctly in my opinion. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
1/9/18 1:02 am
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Cojak |
I think forever in the COG there will be an overall difference in how Ministers and members feel about pastor selection. I am not too sure I am happy with 'tryouts'. Most likely the Overseer KNOWS who will pastor a particular church, no matter what the 'preference ballot' says.
I lean more toward a 'congregational' church the older I get. Good or bad I do not know. All I know is: 'Changing pastors is frustrating when you have no idea who will be preaching until he shows up, with an official to introduce him.' I have been apart of this situation only once before. It was 'fairly obvious to the most casual observer who the pastor was GOING to be by the introductions and accolades."
Not quite this way but close: This is a very serious occasion. You have before you Bro. xyz who has walked on water and fed thousands from a ham sandwich. On the other hand, Do not over look Bro Abc. I cannot say enough about Bro Abc, due to some personal problems he has been an associate at a little church over in Dover. He has been very timely on his reports and his pastor says he is a good guy, most of the time. Think seriously as you prayerfully make your selection.'
No I have never heard it worded that obvious, but I would have been completely in another world if I did not know who was 'preferred' on the ballot.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
1/9/18 11:14 am
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Cojak |
| Clint Wills wrote: | ....
This makes a TON of sense to me. When we went through the pastoral selection process about 14 months ago the elders made that decision with the state office. The church didn't vote at all... ,,,,. |
I have seen this work well many times in my life-time in the COG. Mostly that was many years ago when the COG was much smaller and the average church member KNEW at least half of the active pastors in a state. This was due to active district meetings, conventions and fully supported Camp Meetings.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
1/9/18 11:20 am
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SouthFloridaman |
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Last edited by SouthFloridaman on 3/26/18 10:15 pm; edited 4 times in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
1/18/18 10:18 am
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Like A Tree |
This has to end. This will be very interesting in the next few months to see how this plays out and I am not making lite of this situation. It is very serious. It breaks my heart to see what has and is happening. I still pray for the committed and longsuffering saints that are trying to hold on to a better day.
Yes, AW has been very ugly to former pastors. All except MW who was General Overseer. I know first hand how ugly he can be with no cause.
City Life could have been a great solution but AW didn't want that and has his own agenda. |
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1/18/18 11:05 am
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SouthFloridaman |
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Last edited by SouthFloridaman on 3/26/18 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Friendly Face
Posts: 358
1/18/18 11:56 am
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