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Why Evangelical Young People Don't Wait To Have Sex (L)
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Post Cojak
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Dave Dorsey wrote:
John the Apostle wrote:
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; ...

If someone has been genuinely born of God, he will not continue to make a practice of sinning, because God's seed abides in him. ...


Excellent post.


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1/1/18 12:10 pm


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Post I agree with a lot of what you write here Preacher777
[quote="Dave Dorsey"][quote="John the Apostle"]Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.[/quote]
If someone has been genuinely born of God, he will not continue to make a practice of sinning, because God's seed abides in him. If someone comes to saving faith, the inward work of the Spirit will enable them to begin to kill sin in their lives. We do have a responsibility to disciple people and to tell them God's word, for sure, but you very likely will not have to tell a young man who comes to Christ that he needs to stop sleeping around. As Romans 2 says, when Gentiles who do not know the law by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts as their conscience bears them witness.

I think the main problem is that we lead people through a sinner's prayer in an emotionally charged environment, and that very few of those people actually come to saving faith in Christ. And subsequently, they are unable to put to death the deeds of the body. And on that note...

[quote="Preacher777"]In my opinion we are doing a single man an injustice if he is sexually active (almost every single man) and we do everything possible to convince him to say the sinners prayer or have him accept Christ without dealing with the obvious elephant in the room, the woman sexual situation. [/quote]
I think you might have just been a bit loose with your words, so I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill here, but I do want to point out that it is not possible for someone to deal with that elephant before coming to saving faith in Christ. Someone who does not know Him will continue to sin. It is not possible for that man to stop sinning; the fact that he can't is the entire basis of his need for the gospel.

I think we need to narrow our focus on the proclamation of that gospel, and trust in the power of that gospel to regenerate wicked people and to make them holy. When the music is playing and we are saying things like, "If you died today, do you know where you would go?" we are making false disciples who made a decision in a moment of emotion, rather than true disciples who were called through the gospel and born again to new life.

If we will tell people what Jesus has done for them, and tell them that they can be set free from slavery to sin and can become children of God by grace through faith in Him, some will believe and be saved, and through the power of the Spirit they will begin to mortify their flesh and put to death the deeds of the body. Others won't, and they will perish. But it's no more up to us to sanctify them than it is to save them. We are responsible for making disciples of all people groups by proclaiming His gospel to them. What happens to them after that proclamation is up to Him -- it is too great for us.[/quote]

I agree with a lot of what you write here. We cannot make people change and we cannot sanctify them through natural means, especially before salvation. I fully agree that it is the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word that enables us to put to death the deeds of the body. I do agree with your theological takes Dave. Maybe I am wrong but from the way you and others share this I would will stand corrected but I would guess you and others who simplify this never lived a life as an unsaved single man who was either with a woman or looking for one every night. I repented and regreat my past as a sinner and envy my Christian and pastor friends who grew up in the church. However, from some of our conversations I realize they do not understand the reality of being a single unsaved man then being told a simplified approach to sexual purity.

I have one Christian friend who lives out of town now but sometimes visits. He still tells me he enjoys seeing me preach because he remembers our discussions when I spent 3-4 months seriously contemplating becoming a Christian. He was happily married and my main objection was that he wouold go home to his wife but what about me? Of course he and others tried the approach about letting God clean me from iside out. I let them know I did not want to be a hypocrite if I became born again so I asked about kissing and more being sins. I rmemebr being referred to a young pastor who was "cool" because of my objections about not receiving specific questions concerning what my limits would be as a Christian. He also tried to explain how God could cleanse me from the inside out.

Another pastor friend still remembers me being at weekly home Bible studies at his house. Over a period of several months he and others tried to convince mem to say the sinners prayer. I would answer by explaining that I respected them, believed they were right in how they were living but I wasn't wired that way. They tried to explain that God wouold cleanse me from the inside when I accepted Christ. However, I answered that I had plans later that night that did not fit in with their Christian lifestyle.

I reach out to a lot of young men. If we want to have them commit to Christ apart from an emotional impulsive decision we must be ready to deal with the stronghold and sin pleasure that they know must be given up after accepting Christ. If you doubt my approach here and in the other post let me ask a question. How many if any single me do you know 19-50 who have accepted Christ in the last 5-10 years who are living free from the stronghold of sexaul immorality (meaning you or somebody you know is acquainted with his personal lifestyle rather than seeing him attend church)?
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1/1/18 1:21 pm


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Post Re: I agree with a lot of what you write here Dave Dorsey
Preacher777 wrote:
Maybe I am wrong but from the way you and others share this I would will stand corrected but I would guess you and others who simplify this never lived a life as an unsaved single man who was either with a woman or looking for one every night.

Well, this is kind of embarrassing, but I was never very good with the ladies. My wife is the first woman I ever even kissed, and not for lack of trying to get with others. Embarassed

But I did have an enslaving addiction to pornography when I came to Christ. I think you'll agree that's fundamentally the same thing -- a daily desire to experience sexual satisfaction. You were just better with the ladies and could get the real thing. Smile And my experience with that addiction is one of the things that under-girds my "simplification" here (I think that's an appropriate word). I started looking at porn when I was 11 and did so pretty much daily until a month after I came to Christ. I still remember facing the day when I faced the same temptation, but was suddenly able to overcome it. I lived in sexual purity for four years after that, until I got married.

Quote:
I reach out to a lot of young men. If we want to have them commit to Christ apart from an emotional impulsive decision we must be ready to deal with the stronghold and sin pleasure that they know must be given up after accepting Christ.

How would you even begin to do that? That's the point I'm making; other than teaching them the Word and being available to pray with them and support them in accountability, how would you do this? They're either born of God and will put to death the deeds of the body, or they're not and they won't and can't.

Quote:
If you doubt my approach here and in the other post let me ask a question. How many if any single me do you know 19-50 who have accepted Christ in the last 5-10 years who are living free from the stronghold of sexaul immorality (meaning you or somebody you know is acquainted with his personal lifestyle rather than seeing him attend church)?

I'm not 100% sure what your approach is, since we seem to agree on a lot of points. It'd be great if you could clarify it so I could have a better understanding. But of the genuine believers I know (that is, there is convincing and ongoing external evidence of the Spirit's work within) -- and understanding that I don't know what goes on in the privacy of their homes -- I think the majority would fit this definition. Many sin, and thank God that we can back up a couple of chapters and read 1 John 1:9 in regard to that. But as far as I can see, there is an absence of a habitual practice of sin in their lives -- and, in fact, as John says, this is one of the ways we can know who is a genuine disciple and who is not.
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1/1/18 3:42 pm


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Post Re: I agree with a lot of what you write here Preacher777
[quote="Dave Dorsey"][quote="Preacher777"]Maybe I am wrong but from the way you and others share this I would will stand corrected but I would guess you and others who simplify this never lived a life as an unsaved single man who was either with a woman or looking for one every night.[/quote]
Well, this is kind of embarrassing, but I was never very good with the ladies. My wife is the first woman I ever even kissed, and not for lack of trying to get with others. Embarassed

But I did have an enslaving addiction to pornography when I came to Christ. I think you'll agree that's fundamentally the same thing -- a daily desire to experience sexual satisfaction. You were just better with the ladies and could get the real thing. Smile And my experience with that addiction is one of the things that under-girds my "simplification" here (I think that's an appropriate word). I started looking at porn when I was 11 and did so pretty much daily until a month after I came to Christ. I still remember facing the day when I faced the same temptation, but was suddenly able to overcome it. I lived in sexual purity for four years after that, until I got married.

[quote]I reach out to a lot of young men. If we want to have them commit to Christ apart from an emotional impulsive decision we must be ready to deal with the stronghold and sin pleasure that they know must be given up after accepting Christ.[/quote]
How would you even begin to do that? That's the point I'm making; other than teaching them the Word and being available to pray with them and support them in accountability, how would you do this? They're either born of God and will put to death the deeds of the body, or they're not and they won't and can't.

[quote]If you doubt my approach here and in the other post let me ask a question. How many if any single men do you know 19-50 who have accepted Christ in the last 5-10 years who are living free from the stronghold of sexaul immorality (meaning you or somebody you know is acquainted with his personal lifestyle rather than seeing him attend church)?[/quote]
I'm not 100% sure what your approach is, since we seem to agree on a lot of points. It'd be great if you could clarify it so I could have a better understanding. But of the genuine believers I know (that is, there is convincing and ongoing external evidence of the Spirit's work within) -- and understanding that I don't know what goes on in the privacy of their homes -- I think the majority would fit this definition. Many sin, and thank God that we can back up a couple of chapters and read 1 John 1:9 in regard to that. But as far as I can see, there is an absence of a habitual practice of sin in their lives -- and, in fact, as John says, this is one of the ways we can know who is a genuine disciple and who is not.[/quote]

I want to thank you Dave for this interesting conversation and hope you are also having a relaxing New Years day. You are also to be commended for overcoming the pornography addiction. Sometimes that is harder for men because visuals are always available without the need for a willing woman.

You are correct in that it is not feasible to teach men the Word and help the walk pure before accepting Christ. However, since we are asking people to repent from sin and make a quality decision to accept Christ rather than an emotional "sinners prayer ticket to heaven conversion" I beleive we can eqip men by letting them know God's power requires our cooperation with our will. Men need to realize that victory is possible and God will work with a total commitmnet.

I beleive we need drastic measures as this post states that 4-12% of evengelicals are virgins at marriage. I obviously don't get into these explicit talks wiht young women but assume the men are less likely to be in that 4-12% of virgins at marriage. I go back to the fact that very few single men in that 18-50 year-old bracket accept Christ and live a sexually pure life.

If somebody questions how bad the body of Christ is faring in this area consider this question. How many singles do you know of who were raised in church, taught the right things yet are now living with somebody before marriage? On the other hand, how many unsaved people who live together accpet Christ and move to separate living quarters? Most people I question do not know of one uunsaved couple who fits this narrative.
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1/1/18 7:51 pm


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Post Re: I agree with a lot of what you write here Dave Dorsey
Preacher777 wrote:
If somebody questions how bad the body of Christ is faring in this area consider this question.

Thanks for your interaction as well. This has been an enjoyable discussion.

I think this quote is where I disconnect -- one might question how bad the visible church is faring in this area, but I don't think the body of Christ is faring poorly at all. The visible church, full of apparent believers who are not born again and will not persevere in Christ? Not so good. His body, whom He has regenerated by His Spirit and in whom He is persevering until the final day? I think you'd see very different percentages if we were able to look just at that group.
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1/1/18 8:03 pm


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Post UncleJD
I have a couple of comments on this topic. I have researched them and feel confident they are correct according to scripture (but I will have to wait until I have a lot more time to gather all of it again to post here).

Most protestant evangelical churches don't even know what Biblical marriage really is (they think its a government letter on file in a courthouse), therefore they don't know or at least teach what it is in relation to "pre-marital" sex (I quote that because its a misnomer according to scripture, there is no such thing, there is just a penalty to pay for consummation prior to ceremony and intra-family duties). And then, after marriage, we teach (by example if not by word), that marriage, being a contract on file at the courthouse, is simple to get out of and all one has to do is be "unhappy" to be let out without any consequence or "judgement" by the church.

So, if we don't really understand the Bible on the topic, and we don't really preach sin and the REAL sanctity and holiness of marriage, then how do we expect our children to behave much differently than the world? How can we as a movement have any real expectation that the next generation should be opposed to "gay marriage" when we give them nothing but empty words about it and p[retty]-poor examples from the clergy to the deacon-board, to the secretary in our churches?
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1/2/18 1:26 pm


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Post Cojak
UncleJD wrote:
I have a couple of comments on this topic. I have researched them and feel confident they are correct according to scripture (but I will have to wait until I have a lot more time to gather all of it again to post here).

Most protestant evangelical churches don't even know what Biblical marriage really is (they think its a government letter on file in a courthouse), therefore they don't know or at least teach what it is in relation to "pre-marital" sex (I quote that because its a misnomer according to scripture, there is no such thing, there is just a penalty to pay for consummation prior to ceremony and intra-family duties). And then, after marriage, we teach (by example if not by word), that marriage, being a contract on file at the courthouse, is simple to get out of and all one has to do is be "unhappy" to be let out without any consequence or "judgement" by the church.
well stated JD!
So, if we don't really understand the Bible on the topic, and we don't really preach sin and the REAL sanctity and holiness of marriage, then how do we expect our children to behave much differently than the world? How can we as a movement have any real expectation that the next generation should be opposed to "gay marriage" when we give them nothing but empty words about it and p[retty]-poor examples from the clergy to the deacon-board, to the secretary in our churches?
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1/2/18 9:41 pm


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