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 How we talk about abortion |
Link |
I was on a Facebook friend's page, someone who has a lot of liberal and conservative religious Facebook friends. Some of them were accusing Roy Moore and saying evangelicals had sold their soul to the devil and junk like that who voted for him.
I said a lot of people didn't believe the allegations, and that the choice is between a man who is accused of sexual improprieties decades ago versus a man who very clearly supports the idea that murder of unborn babies should be legal.
This turned into a discussion between me and mainly two liberals, one is some kind of clergyman. I think he was the guy who has a masters, lots of ministry accomplishments. The other was a feminist woman who said she went to Fuller, but didn't seem to grasp what 'free will' means.
Anyway, they are so-called 'pro choice.' It irked them horribly that I use words like 'murder' and 'baby' to describe abortion. But this actually reinforces my belief that we should stop being 'polite' (or wimpy) on this topic and use the terminology we believe in as Christians.
When we talk about abortion using terms like 'fetus'-- that really dampens the impact. It sounds like no big deal to terminate a fetus. But killing a baby, or murdering a baby, that sounds like a really horrific thing.
The left chooses obscure medical terms to obscure the dialogue. It's like Norwellian Newspeak from the novel 1984. 'Abortion' used to be a word for miscarriage. Of course, the word now has a specialized meaning. But they chose a word that has a lighter emotional impact than 'kill a baby.' 'Terminate a pregnancy' doesn't sound as bad as 'kill the baby in the womb.'
Why do we use terms like 'pro-life'? What a bland, generic, non-descriptive term that is. Why don't way say, "anti-baby-murder"? Why should we use terminology that dumbs things down.
When we talk about this topic, shouldn't we use terms like 'murder' and 'baby.' People hate it. They may accuse you of hate speech, but it exposes them. It makes them uncomfortable. It may make them feel ashamed for supporting murder. All good things in the context of people endorsing, promoting, and trying to soften the topic of murder to make it seem more palatable.
The left use unpleasant terminology to promote lies. If you think it is immoral and sinful to engage in homosexual acts and call it sin, they may accuse you of 'hate', or 'bigotry' or 'homophobia.'
I believe we should use honest unpleasant terms like 'murder' when we speak out against murder.
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Link
Last edited by Link on 12/15/17 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-perienced Poster
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12/15/17 7:57 am
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| Link...here's why.... |
Aaron Scott |
| Link wrote: | I was on a Facebook friend's page, someone who has a lot of liberal and conservative religious Facebook friends. Some of them were accusing Roy Moore and saying evangelicals had sold their soul to the devil and junk like that who voted for him.
I said a lot of people didn't believe the allegations, and that the choice is between a man who is accused of sexual improprieties decades ago versus a man who very clearly supports the idea that murder of unborn babies should be legal.
This turned into a discussion between me and mainly two liberals, one is some kind of clergyman. I think he was the guy who has a masters, lots of ministry accomplishments, but I seem to recall he may have said he doesn't believe in the resurrection or some other non-Christian belief in a previous conversation. The other was a feminist woman who said she went to Fuller, but didn't seem to grasp what 'free will' means.
Anyway, they are so-called 'pro choice.' It irked them horribly that I use words like 'murder' and 'baby' to describe abortion. But this actually reinforces my belief that we should stop being 'polite' (or wimpy) on this topic and use the terminology we believe in as Christians.
When we talk about abortion using terms like 'fetus'-- that really dampens the impact. It sounds like no big deal to terminate a fetus. But killing a baby, or murdering a baby, that sounds like a really horrific thing.
The left chooses obscure medical terms to obscure the dialogue. It's like Norwellian Newspeak from the novel 1984. 'Abortion' used to be a word for miscarriage. Of course, the word now has a specialized meaning. But they chose a word that has a lighter emotional impact than 'kill a baby.' 'Terminate a pregnancy' doesn't sound as bad as 'kill the baby in the womb.'
Why do we use terms like 'pro-life'? What a bland, generic, non-descriptive term that is. Why don't way say, "anti-baby-murder"? Why should we use terminology that dumbs things down.
When we talk about this topic, shouldn't we use terms like 'murder' and 'baby.' People hate it. They may accuse you of hate speech, but it exposes them. It makes them uncomfortable. It may make them feel ashamed for supporting murder. All good things in the context of people endorsing, promoting, and trying to soften the topic of murder to make it seem more palatable.
The left use unpleasant terminology to promote lies. If you think it is immoral and sinful to engage in homosexual acts and call it sin, they may accuse you of 'hate', or 'bigotry' or 'homophobia.'
I believe we should use honest unpleasant terms like 'murder' when we speak out against murder. |
Link, the reason we stopped (and perhaps SHOULD have stopped) using the word murder was because it made us into hypocrites. What? That's right. We wanted to call abortion cold, pre-meditated murder, but the moment we were asked about whether those teenage girls that got an abortion should be sent to the electric chair...well, we started backtracking and coming up with weasel moves to get out of going that far.
But if we are going to call it MURDER, then, at the very least, they should get life in prison without parole, don't you think? I don't.
For one thing, the notion of aborting something smaller than the period at the end of this sentence does not carry for me the same moral force as aborting something that clearly has a human form. Yes, in the abstract, or in an intellectual argument, the point can perhaps be made that it is a child, but the emotional force of murder is greatly diluted when the victim is not even distinguishable as a human. Sorry, but that's the truth. It doesn't mean that abortion at even the earliest stages is not wrong, but it does mean that you can't expect anyone to feel the same way about that as they would if a three-year-old child was killed.
I have found that those who call it murder and DO think the woman should be jailed or executed do so NOT because that is their heartfelt belief...but because they know that failing to do so wrecks the logic of their argument, and they'd rather have an argument than have mercy.
For ME, I finally realized that while there may be some women who absolutely are purposely killing what they know to be a child, etc., there are plenty of young girls who, caught up on their emotions, made a bad decision and got pregnant. Now, tormented by what their parents will say and do, they resort to the animalistic ethic of self-preservation. Under other circumstances, they would have been happy to have the baby...but not under the actual circumstances.
So, I decided to stop calling it murder (since I was not about to send a girl to prison or the electric chair over it)...and decided to call it what I think it really is: a TRAGEDY.
Further, while there will ALWAYS be people who will hold on for abortion no matter how barbaric or evil it is, there are also people who, if not called baby killers, etc., might actually have a reasoned conversation with you and come to a different view.
If I'm not trying to persuade them, then, fine, pull out all stops and call them evil baby killers. But that begs the question of why I am arguing with them at all, right?
But if I do seek to persuade them, then it serves little purpose to come down so hard and harsh as to make all their defenses go up, right? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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12/15/17 11:38 am
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I don't have a problem with the idea of women being imprisoned for this. Doctors (usually) actually perform the act.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
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12/15/17 12:41 pm
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FLRon |
I wonder, would Jesus condone abortion? I think not.
I wonder then what His response would be if He were to be tasked with dealing with the issue? Would He condemn the woman who had the abortion? Would He call her a murderer and remand her to the authorities for punishment? Or would He make a statement similar to "he that is without sin among you..."?
I don't pretend to know what Jesus would do or say. Except that I have a hard time believing that He wouldn't find a way to bring repentance and forgiveness to the forefront of the situation.
We as Christians know that abortion is wrong. Unfortunately we live in a society where abortion is permitted and that's not going to change. Knowing that, maybe we can better serve Christ by loving those who choose the path of abortion,rather than casting stones of condemnation.
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“Hell will be filled with people that didn’t cuss, didn’t drink, and may even have been baptized. Why? Because none of those things makes someone a Christian.”
Voddie Baucham |
Acts-celerater
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12/15/17 1:19 pm
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Da Sheik |
| If your daughter was raped by a serial killer would you be ok with her taking a “morning after†pill ? If your wife was dying and and the only way to save her was to terminate a very early pregnancy would you let her die ? Life is not always a slam dunk. And no, I’m not an advocate for abortion by any means. Just offering some different perspectives. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
12/15/17 1:33 pm
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UncleJD |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | If your daughter was raped by a serial killer would you be ok with her taking a “morning after†pill ? If your wife was dying and and the only way to save her was to terminate a very early pregnancy would you let her die ? Life is not always a slam dunk. And no, I’m not an advocate for abortion by any means. Just offering some different perspectives. |
First scenario? Absolutely not. My daughter (I know because she would be the first to tell you this), would choose to redeem the horror of the situation with a baby. and before I'm slammed with the liberal mantra of "you said CHOICE", it really wouldn't be a choice, it would just be doing what's right and redemptive.
Second scenario, it would be tough but if the baby had every chance of living then I think I know what I would do. If the baby had no chance, if it were truly and nonviable pregnancy, then it is not murder. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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12/15/17 3:59 pm
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Cojak |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | If your daughter was raped by a serial killer would you be ok with her taking a “morning after†pill ? If your wife was dying and and the only way to save her was to terminate a very early pregnancy would you let her die ? Life is not always a slam dunk. And no, I’m not an advocate for abortion by any means. Just offering some different perspectives. |
Since you gave the two situations, and I have been slammed before, but it is my honest feelings. Yes, if my daughter or wife was raped I would be okay with early abortion. (The beginning of life the sexual act that brings about a child is supposed to be a joyous occasion, not horror.
Second, of course I would save my wife, she is the dearest thing in the world to me. If life begins that early then God will accept that little soul in his care. God knows me and HE would know my heart was not malicious but filled with love for Him. I am his child. if I am wrong, He would also forgive me. 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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12/15/17 10:23 pm
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Link |
| Cojak wrote: |
Since you gave the two situations, and I have been slammed before, but it is my honest feelings. Yes, if my daughter or wife was raped I would be okay with early abortion. (The beginning of life the sexual act that brings about a child is supposed to be a joyous occasion, not horror. |
What if your grandchild were as far along as John the Baptist was when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and lept in his mother's womb? Would you believe it is wrong to abort that baby in that case.
The Baptist preacher turned Charismatic, James Robison, who feeds all those kids in Africa, was born to a mother who said she was raped. At what point would it be wrong to terminate James Robison's life? Would it be less wrong to kill him now than someone who was not conceived by rape?
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
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12/16/17 3:40 am
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Cojak |
at is my opinion. | Link wrote: | | Cojak wrote: |
Since you gave the two situations, and I have been slammed before, but it is my honest feelings. Yes, if my daughter or wife was raped I would be okay with early abortion. (The beginning of life the sexual act that brings about a child is supposed to be a joyous occasion, not horror. |
What if your grandchild were as far along as John the Baptist was when he was filled with the Holy Ghost and lept in his mother's womb? Would you believe it is wrong to abort that baby in that case.
The Baptist preacher turned Charismatic, James Robison, who feeds all those kids in Africa, was born to a mother who said she was raped. At what point would it be wrong to terminate James Robison's life? Would it be less wrong to kill him now than someone who was not conceived by rape? |
I cannot speak to John the Baptist that is done and he was a great man.
I also cannot speak to James R, I do respect him and appreciate his work.
I stated my personal opinion as a human, Father, grandfather and a Christian. I am not smart enough to give scripture or an argument for my point. Using examples.
Personally I would not have minded if Hitler, Amein, Stalin or John Wilkes Booth had been aborted. But hind sight is 20/20.
Sorry I cannot justify my opinion in words, but inside I am at peace with the feeling and stand I take.
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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12/16/17 11:16 am
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UncleJD |
| I've heard the testimony of several women who conceived from rape and kept their baby. None of them regret it one iota. In fact, there are tales of redemption I've heard that are mind blowing |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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12/16/17 11:29 am
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| Please conside the following about calling out abortion as murder |
Preacher777 |
I tend to agree with you on most issues Link. You bring a lot of well thought out information to this message board. Politics is not something I give a lot of time and attention to but from a Christian perspective I am considered extremely conservative. Yet, if somebody made the comment that abortion is murder in one of our church services or events I would definitely talk to that person individually and make a public statement concerning my desire to not use that language. I hope you and the others will consider the following reasons concerning our labeling abortion as murder.
I have counseled with different women who had abortions before accepting Christ. What a challenge to help them accept God's forgiveness for that abortion or abortions. Often I use Paul as an example since he killed Christians but wrote in Philippians 4:13 (NAS) Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead....Sometimes without notice something as simple as a children's event or a cute little girl or boy dressed up for Easter service triggers this woman into the horror of that abortion. Thoughts such as, "My little boy would be the same age and acting in this play."
I remember back in 1997 i was doing a Sunday night service with about 20 people (maybe 10-12 women) in attendance. Somebody wanted us to picket the abortion clinic with Christians who held the murder signs up. As I looked at the congregation I counted 8 abortions (multiple abortions by several women) which I knew about from helping those women get over the guilt. I also recalled a conversation with a young unsaved woman in a psychology class who shared the horror of going through an abortion at 17-18 years-old. I will nver forget her emotional hurts talking about the "born agains" who were yelling "abortion is murder" as she walked into the clinic. Hopefully I was able to do soem damamge control for her view of Christ and Christians in our conversation after class.
Summing things up, i am against abortion but for helping those who had abortions walk in God's restoration, grace and mercy. My desire is to share the truth about sin, repentance and grace with the resulting restoration versus condemnation. |
Friendly Face
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12/16/17 1:41 pm
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Aaron Scott |
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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12/16/17 7:50 pm
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| Re: ... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | it IS about God, the mother, and the child...and I am not in that equation. |
I know how 2 out of those 3 would vote each and every time.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
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12/16/17 8:07 pm
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| Abortion |
Change Agent |
Preacher 777 stated:
"I tend to agree with you on most issues Link. You bring a lot of well thought out information to this message board. Politics is not something I give a lot of time and attention to but from a Christian perspective I am considered extremely conservative. Yet, if somebody made the comment that abortion is murder in one of our church services or events I would definitely talk to that person individually and make a public statement concerning my desire to not use that language. I hope you and the others will consider the following reasons concerning our labeling abortion as murder.
I have counseled with different women who had abortions before accepting Christ. What a challenge to help them accept God's forgiveness for that abortion or abortions. Often I use Paul as an example since he killed Christians but wrote in Philippians 4:13 (NAS) Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead....Sometimes without notice something as simple as a children's event or a cute little girl or boy dressed up for Easter service triggers this woman into the horror of that abortion. Thoughts such as, "My little boy would be the same age and acting in this play.
I remember back in 1997 i was doing a Sunday night service with about 20 people (maybe 10-12 women) in attendance. Somebody wanted us to picket the abortion clinic with Christians who held the murder signs up. As I looked at the congregation I counted 8 abortions (multiple abortions by several women) which I knew about from helping those women get over the guilt. I also recalled a conversation with a young unsaved woman in a psychology class who shared the horror of going through an abortion at 17-18 years-old. I will nver forget her emotional hurts talking about the "born agains" who were yelling "abortion is murder" as she walked into the clinic. Hopefully I was able to do soem damamge control for her view of Christ and Christians in our conversation after class.
Summing things up, i am against abortion but for helping those who had abortions walk in God's restoration, grace and mercy. My desire is to share the truth about sin, repentance and grace with the resulting restoration versus condemnation."
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Your above quote mirrors my thoughts on abortion. The imprisonment of women who did go through abortion procedures would be unthinkable. If the abortion decision were left up to men carrying babies their thoughts would be entirely different, believe me. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
12/17/17 11:54 am
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| I'm for punishing the docs not the women, BUT... |
UncleJD |
wow, if abortion isn't murder, then what are we worried about? That sounds just like a lot of "religious" democrats (Joe Biden comes to mind). It needs to be called what it is. There has always been grace and forgiveness even for murder, so I don't concede the point you're making to water it down for the sake of those who have already done it.
If we should avoid using "harsh terms", then do we agree with the rest of the left's position to "soften" abortion to make it more palatable? Don't call it a baby, call it a fetus? Don't say "kill", say "terminate"? Don't show pictures? Call it "tissue"?
I'm very sorry for women who have succumbed to murdering human babies, but that does not change what has happened, and I feel more sorry for the babies. For the sake of their own souls they need to come to grips with what they have done so that they may actually repent. Sometimes we need to hear that what we are doing is sin in order to share the horror of the act that God sees and understand the seriousness of it. Then, one on one, or in a sermon setting, they need to be told the power of a loving and forgiving God to help them move on. I'm sure that it sounds good to tell them its not really murder, but what good does it do?
This one gets me a bit riled and I'm sorry, but seriously if a preacher scolded me for using the term "murder" about abortion, he would get an earful, a good-riddance, and at least a call to his AB or whatever government or board may be responsible for him. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
12/18/17 10:02 am
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| Re: I'm for punishing the docs not the women, BUT... |
Quiet Wyatt |
| UncleJD wrote: | wow, if abortion isn't murder, then what are we worried about? That sounds just like a lot of "religious" democrats (Joe Biden comes to mind). It needs to be called what it is. There has always been grace and forgiveness even for murder, so I don't concede the point you're making to water it down for the sake of those who have already done it.
If we should avoid using "harsh terms", then do we agree with the rest of the left's position to "soften" abortion to make it more palatable? Don't call it a baby, call it a fetus? Don't say "kill", say "terminate"? Don't show pictures? Call it "tissue"?
I'm very sorry for women who have succumbed to murdering human babies, but that does not change what has happened, and I feel more sorry for the babies. For the sake of their own souls they need to come to grips with what they have done so that they may actually repent. Sometimes we need to hear that what we are doing is sin in order to share the horror of the act that God sees and understand the seriousness of it. Then, one on one, or in a sermon setting, they need to be told the power of a loving and forgiving God to help them move on. I'm sure that it sounds good to tell them its not really murder, but what good does it do?
This one gets me a bit riled and I'm sorry, but seriously if a preacher scolded me for using the term "murder" about abortion, he would get an earful, a good-riddance, and at least a call to his AB or whatever government or board may be responsible for him. |
Amen! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/18/17 10:07 am
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| Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | wow, if abortion isn't murder, then what are we worried about? That sounds just like a lot of "religious" democrats (Joe Biden comes to mind). It needs to be called what it is. There has always been grace and forgiveness even for murder, so I don't concede the point you're making to water it down for the sake of those who have already done it.
If we should avoid using "harsh terms", then do we agree with the rest of the left's position to "soften" abortion to make it more palatable? Don't call it a baby, call it a fetus? Don't say "kill", say "terminate"? Don't show pictures? Call it "tissue"?
I'm very sorry for women who have succumbed to murdering human babies, but that does not change what has happened, and I feel more sorry for the babies. For the sake of their own souls they need to come to grips with what they have done so that they may actually repent. Sometimes we need to hear that what we are doing is sin in order to share the horror of the act that God sees and understand the seriousness of it. Then, one on one, or in a sermon setting, they need to be told the power of a loving and forgiving God to help them move on. I'm sure that it sounds good to tell them its not really murder, but what good does it do?
This one gets me a bit riled and I'm sorry, but seriously if a preacher scolded me for using the term "murder" about abortion, he would get an earful, a good-riddance, and at least a call to his AB or whatever government or board may be responsible for him. |
All you have to do is look in the OT where a woman has a miscarriage due to some sort of violence against her. Find out if the perpetrator is put to death. If so, then your argument is made. If not, then perhaps we need to take a breath before we are claiming murder this and murder that.
I do agree that a doctor who performs abortions without any questions should be locked up. While WE may think abortion is wrong under all circumstances, I would at least give some credit to an abortion doctor who tried to determine if this was just a convenience abortion...or one where the mother's health (including mental health, perhaps) was at stake. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/18/17 10:47 am
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
All you have to do is look in the OT where a woman has a miscarriage due to some sort of violence against her. Find out if the perpetrator is put to death. |
What does the sentencing have to do with the sin? I'm not advocating anyone get "stoned" for it.
The whole of scripture is replete with the sanctity of human life and the consequences for unjustly taking it. No need to hash that out here. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
12/18/17 11:08 am
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: |
All you have to do is look in the OT where a woman has a miscarriage due to some sort of violence against her. Find out if the perpetrator is put to death. |
What does the sentencing have to do with the sin? I'm not advocating anyone get "stoned" for it.
The whole of scripture is replete with the sanctity of human life and the consequences for unjustly taking it. No need to hash that out here. |
No, I get where you're coming from, UncleJD. But my point is that is that while we tend to act like abortion is cold-blooded murder, it appears that ancient Israel had a somewhat different view. Consider that if ancient Israel truly thought it was murder (as most of us tend to think--whether we use that particular language or not), then you would think that it would have resulted in the death penalty...since that's what happened with murder, etc.
Of course, such a matter did have consequences, but not the consequences we would associate with murder. One would think that if they felt the same way as we have come to think about this matter, they would have certainly had a stiffer penalty.
My point is NOT at all to act like abortion isn't wrong. IT IS. But, as I said in another post, it is difficult to feel the same sort of moral outrage over something that is virtually microscopic as we rightly feel when an abortion destroys what no one can mistake for anything other than human child.
Of course, in the OT, this is considered an ACCIDENTAL death, and that may very well be why the consequences were no stiffer than they were.
That is, if they had called for death for a man causing a woman to lose her child, |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/18/17 12:57 pm
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UncleJD |
voluntary or purposeful abortion is not mentioned specifically in scripture. I guess nobody thought it was something that people would actually question the morality of, and certainly something that people could follow the logic applied to murder of innocents in general.
Again, I'm not debating whether there should be a death sentence or not, that is a political and governmental problem. The spiritual result of a grave sin is what we're discussing. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
12/18/17 1:27 pm
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