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 Does the Pope have a valid point? (L) |
Chicago27 |
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| Short answer |
brotherjames |
Yes.
Don't like this pope generally but on this point he has a point. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
12/8/17 6:27 pm
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| Yes, he does.... |
Aaron Scott |
I have often thought how terrible it is to have to PRAY THAT OUR FATHER WON'T LEAD US INTO A DEEPLY DAMAGING SITUATION!
What kind of God is that? Certainly not that One that most of us preach.
I think I would make an additional change (or maybe just use it instead of the pope's suggestion): "Keep us from trials." That's what "temptation" almost certainly means, at least if we're going to believe what James said in:
| Quote: | | (James 1:13 KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: |
Now, God CAN be tempted...but not with evil. We learn this from what Jesus said in:
| Quote: | | (Matthew 4:7 KJV) Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God |
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Now, I'm not sure if my proposed edits are the best thing we could do, but I do think that the way we understand the word "temptation" makes that passage a very difficult one to understand. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/8/17 6:44 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
12/8/17 7:08 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quote: | | In a new television interview, Pope Francis said the common rendering of one line in the prayer — “lead us not into temptation†— was “not a good translation†from ancient texts. |
καὶ μὴ εἰσενÎγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειÏασμόν
and not lead/bring us into temptation
Word for word literal translation. So to the question of whether the quoted statement is a valid point, I'm gonna go with "no". |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/8/17 7:32 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Quote: | New International Version
And lead us not into temptation
New Living Translation
And don't let us yield to temptation
English Standard Version
And lead us not into temptation
Berean Study Bible
And lead us not into temptation
Berean Literal Bible
And lead us not into temptation
New American Standard Bible
And do not lead us into temptation
King James Bible
And lead us not into temptation
Holman Christian Standard Bible
And do not bring us into temptation
International Standard Version
And never bring us into temptation
NET Bible
And do not lead us into temptation
New Heart English Bible
And lead us not into temptation
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And lead us not to temptation
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't allow us to be tempted.
American Standard Version
And bring us not into temptation
Douay-Rheims Bible
And lead us not into temptation
Darby Bible Translation
and lead us not into temptation
English Revised Version
And bring us not into temptation
Webster's Bible Translation
And lead us not into temptation
Weymouth New Testament
and bring us not into temptation
World English Bible
Bring us not into temptation
Young's Literal Translation
And mayest Thou not lead us to temptation |
But hey, far be it for all these translation committees to disagree with the Vicar of Christ. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/8/17 7:39 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Now, if you want to talk about "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever" -- well, that's an interesting conversation. That line does not appear in the oldest manuscripts. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/8/17 7:41 pm
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| Other translations |
brotherjames |
BBE. 13 And let us not be put to the test, but keep us safe from the Evil One.
ISV. And never bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’
EasyEnglish
Do not let anything cause us to do wrong things. Keep us safe from the *Devil.†’
NHEB
And lead us not into (6:13 As a Hebrew idiom. Or, “Bring us not intoâ€) temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
12/8/17 8:27 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Three of those translations say "lead us not into temptation". The other one is a paraphrase. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/8/17 8:30 pm
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diakoneo |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
Yep, He was led by the Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity, to be tested. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
12/8/17 10:48 pm
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| Here's a good thought from Jamison (JFB) |
brotherjames |
I agree God tests man but this commentary puts the prayer of verse 13 into a better context. Just food for thought.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
13. And lead us not into temptation—He who honestly seeks and has the assurance of, forgiveness for past sin, will strive to avoid committing it for the future. But conscious that "when we would do good evil is present with us," we are taught to offer this sixth petition, which comes naturally close upon the preceding, and flows, indeed, instinctively from it in the hearts of all earnest Christians. There is some difficulty in the form of the petition, as it is certain that God does bring His people—as He did Abraham, and Christ Himself—into circumstances both fitted and designed to try them, or test the strength of their faith. Some meet this by regarding the petition as simply an humble expression of self-distrust and instinctive shrinking from danger; but this seems too weak. Others take it as a prayer against yielding to temptation, and so equivalent to a prayer for support and deliverance when we are tempted; but this seems to go beyond the precise thing intended. We incline to take it as a prayer against being drawn or sucked, of our own will, into temptation, to which the word here used seems to lend some countenance—"Introduce us not." This view, while it does not put into our mouths a prayer against being tempted—which is more than the divine procedure would seem to warrant—does not, on the other hand, change the sense of the petition into one for support under temptation, which the words will hardly bear; but it gives us a subject for prayer, in regard to temptation, most definite, and of all others most needful. It was precisely this which Peter needed to ask, but did not ask, when—of his own accord, and in spite of difficulties—he pressed for entrance into the palace hall of the high priest, and where, once sucked into the scene and atmosphere of temptation, he fell so foully. And if so, does it not seem pretty clear that this was exactly what our Lord meant His disciples to pray against when He said in the garden—"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation"? (Mt 26:41). |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
12/9/17 10:02 am
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Tom Sterbens |
Over the last year I have marveled at how often our theology takes the shape of our presuppositions. I don't know that any of us can be free of that proclivity in some sense. "That" issue has become the single biggest issue for personal examination of my own thought process...
Nonetheless - while I have no formal training in original languages, the "Lord's Prayer" passage is one I have probably spent the most time with through the years, in terms of grammar and linguistics. To that point I do have some pretty good resources and I cannot find any reference to εἰσενÎγκῃς (manuscript) or εἰσφÎÏω (lemma) or φÎÏω "phero" (root verb)...that lends credence to "falling into" anything. It seems to be exclusively an act of intentionality, bringing, carrying, to present, etc.
I know that does not fit comfortably with many of our preferred notions of God (personally, I don't "like" it...). But then I am forced to consider letting God's Word speak to me, in all the discomfort it creates, or I can fashion God in the manner I would prefer Him to be. I guess my concern at that point is we began to innocently fashion another Golden Calf.
But that's me...
Great discussion...thanks. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
12/9/17 10:34 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | I know that does not fit comfortably with many of our preferred notions of God (personally, I don't "like" it...). But then I am forced to consider letting God's Word speak to me, in all the discomfort it creates, or I can fashion God in the manner I would prefer Him to be. I guess my concern at that point is we began to innocently fashion another Golden Calf. |
Tom, I appreciate your perspective here. I have personally been on a journey toward little-R reformed theology over the last few years, despite my best efforts, and have often felt the same as I wrestled with the doctrines of grace.
I think your post gets at the root of what is happening here. It don't think it's fair to say the pope is trying to subvert truth or twist the Scriptures. It's a matter of theodicy, and it's just far easier to say the text was translated wrong (even though it's clear it wasn't, as you also said) than to face and wrestle with what it says. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
12/9/17 11:02 am
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| QW...a thought |
Aaron Scott |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
That’s a telling point. At the same time, if God wants us to go through temptation, are we right to pray against it? Which begs the question of “If He wants us to go through TRIALS, are we right to pray against it?†|
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/9/17 11:40 pm
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Link |
The New York Times said,
| Quote: | | In a new television interview, Pope Francis said the common rendering of one line in the prayer — “lead us not into temptation†— was “not a good translation†from ancient texts. “Do not let us fall into temptation,†he suggested, might be better because God does not lead people into temptation; Satan does. |
I allow for the fact that newspapers misunderstand and misrepresent. But if this is accurate, I wonder if the pope has been watching too many WOFers on TBN.
Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil before He asked His disciples to pray this prayer.
I think they should reflect ambiguities in the text as best they can.
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/10/17 3:01 am
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| Re: QW...a thought |
Tom Sterbens |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
That’s a telling point. At the same time, if God wants us to go through temptation, are we right to pray against it? Which begs the question of “If He wants us to go through TRIALS, are we right to pray against it?†|
No more than it not right to ask God to "let this cup pass from me" when the eventuality of death on the cross was established before the foundation of the world.
Jesus has ben touched with the feelings of our infirmities...He has been touched with the weaknesses of our flesh. I think His prayer (in Matthew 6 and 26) reflects that reality. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
12/10/17 2:01 pm
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| Re: QW...a thought |
Aaron Scott |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
That’s a telling point. At the same time, if God wants us to go through temptation, are we right to pray against it? Which begs the question of “If He wants us to go through TRIALS, are we right to pray against it?†|
No more than it not right to ask God to "let this cup pass from me" when the eventuality of death on the cross was established before the foundation of the world.
Jesus has ben touched with the feelings of our infirmities...He has been touched with the weaknesses of our flesh. I think His prayer (in Matthew 6 and 26) reflects that reality. |
That's a very good point. You and Quiet Wyatt have me rethinking my position. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/10/17 6:47 pm
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| Re: QW...a thought |
Aaron Scott |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
That’s a telling point. At the same time, if God wants us to go through temptation, are we right to pray against it? Which begs the question of “If He wants us to go through TRIALS, are we right to pray against it?†|
No more than it not right to ask God to "let this cup pass from me" when the eventuality of death on the cross was established before the foundation of the world.
Jesus has ben touched with the feelings of our infirmities...He has been touched with the weaknesses of our flesh. I think His prayer (in Matthew 6 and 26) reflects that reality. |
That's a very good point. You and Quiet Wyatt have me rethinking my position. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
12/10/17 6:49 pm
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| Re: QW...a thought |
Tom Sterbens |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Well, there’s this:
Matt 4:1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. NASB |
That’s a telling point. At the same time, if God wants us to go through temptation, are we right to pray against it? Which begs the question of “If He wants us to go through TRIALS, are we right to pray against it?†|
No more than it not right to ask God to "let this cup pass from me" when the eventuality of death on the cross was established before the foundation of the world.
Jesus has ben touched with the feelings of our infirmities...He has been touched with the weaknesses of our flesh. I think His prayer (in Matthew 6 and 26) reflects that reality. |
That's a very good point. You and Quiet Wyatt have me rethinking my position. |
Revelation 8:1 (NASB95)
".... there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."
(For those you who don't know - and who may read my words as being inconsiderate of Aaron's gracious transparency - Aaron and I have many years of wonderful debate and banter between us. I regard him as a brother who thinks deeply, with a deep love for God, His word and The Church... Now, back to sarcasm!  ) |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
12/11/17 10:16 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Lead you into tempatation - allows temptation - what's the difference?
If God can stop it - and doesn't - what difference does it make.
Same with sickness.
If he allows it - but could stop it - it works out to be the same difference to me. Semantics doesn't matter.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16621
12/11/17 10:44 am
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