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What would you do?
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Post What would you do? Link
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.
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11/18/17 10:47 am


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Post I would have respectfully disagreed roughridercog
I believe coming out from among them and being separate from this align with water baptism is to be a public proclamation that old things have passed away and all things have become new. You are a new creature in Christ Jesus.

One thing it will accomplish is their family saying, "What does this mean?"
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11/18/17 12:04 pm


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Post Re: What would you do? Quiet Wyatt
Link wrote:
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.


I’d ask the leader if he thought idolatry was compatible with serving Jesus Christ as Lord.
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11/18/17 12:25 pm


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Post Link
What I did was say, "NOOOO!" in the meeting, then have a debate with him on the topic, basically.

I had wondered if I were in a meeting where someone was preaching a really blasphemous 'little gods' sermon, or asked everyone to partake of communion in the name of the goddess Sophia (read about that once), would I speak up?

I had a discussion during the break. He put my viewpoint in a bucket with a variety of old fashioned missions strategies, and associated his viewpoint with the idea of winning households and individuals. It was a strange conversation, as if he thought that bowing down to Buddha was the key to salvation for the Chinese, and he would tell the new believer to bow to Buddha to save the millions of Chinese who were going to Hell. My anti-idolatry viewpoint was the reason so many millions had gone to Hell, something like that.

Something that bothered me about it was that I was the only one who spoke up when he said this. I knew some of the other people in the room, not really, really well. But I'd met them before. They were not native speakers of English, and I wonder if some of them were silent because they weren't totally sure if he said what they thought he said, or if he meant what they thought he meant, or if they were just being more 'polite' than I am since they are Asians and from a more quiet culture. Two or three of them that I discussed it with seemed to agree with me on the topic.

One of them summed up the contextualization issue on this point rather well, IMO, "as long as you don't sin."

I knew the guy from a Facebook forum, an acquaintence of a friend of mine who had spent time in his country, actually. I told the Lord if he wanted me to address it online to let me know. I did last week.

He even said the person who committed idolatry could pray and receive forgiveness. But supposedly, doing so is supposed to open the possibility to win more souls.

He's apparently one of these guys with an 'insider movement' philosophy. I think he has a doctorate, and used to teach at a Bible college. I was hoping he'd be open to reason and the word of God. I'm praying that he will lose influence with the folks around here and elsewhere if he doesn't repent.

I don't know if I want to go to a conference if he'll be there. If he promotes his idea again, I'll likely oppose it again.
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11/18/17 1:08 pm


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Post Cojak
You travel in interesting areas . Also hear some odd takes on Christianity, different from North Carolina/Florida......... Or is it?? Wink

Take care my friend, interesting conference!
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11/18/17 1:17 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Cultural sensitivity and to some extent, accommodation, is important, of course, but outwardly continuing to bow to an idol? I’m gonna say no. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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11/18/17 2:12 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
I'd also probably take a quick read of the room. If the other ministers there looked like someone had passed gas in church, I might let it go. But I think there's ample biblical precedent for respectfully but firmly confronting a statement like that, and doing it in the public forum in which it was made.

I assume you dropped to your knees and yelled "NOOOO!" like Captain Kirk screaming at Khan. If so, I think you handled it about as well as could be expected.
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11/18/17 2:59 pm


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Post Cojak
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'd also probably take a quick read of the room. If the other ministers there looked like someone had passed gas in church, I might let it go. But I think there's ample biblical precedent for respectfully but firmly confronting a statement like that, and doing it in the public forum in which it was made.

I assume you dropped to your knees and yelled "NOOOO!" like Captain Kirk screaming at Khan. If so, I think you handled it about as well as could be expected.


Shocked Smile Smile Smile
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11/18/17 4:52 pm


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Post Link
Dave Dorsey wrote:
I'd also probably take a quick read of the room. If the other ministers there looked like someone had passed gas in church, I might let it go. But I think there's ample biblical precedent for respectfully but firmly confronting a statement like that, and doing it in the public forum in which it was made.

I assume you dropped to your knees and yelled "NOOOO!" like Captain Kirk screaming at Khan. If so, I think you handled it about as well as could be expected.


No, I didn't drop to my knees and yell melodramatically. I remember him yelling 'Kahn'. Maybe he yelled 'No!' too.

The thing is with some of the Asians is they tend to be quiet and polite. I was surprised no one jumped in and backed me up. They told me later they opposed it.

But if that happened if someone were speaking quickly in Indonesian in an accent I had a little trouble following, I might be a bit hesitant to jump in like that.

I wasn't a pulpit-pew scenario.

Anyway, the guy is apparently pretty influential in certain countries. So I'm praying that he repent or lose influence.
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11/19/17 6:14 am


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Post Budda Change Agent
Heard a lot of preachers tell new believers to keep trying to overcome bad habits in their life such as smoking, drinking and cussing. They didn't question where the new believer was saved.

Going over to the Buddist Temple and preaching hell fire and brimstone sure wouldn't be a good way for a testimony to Buddist friends and relatives.
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11/19/17 3:33 pm


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Post diakoneo
Quote:
Act 15:19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 
Act 15:20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 


If the early church saw it a necessity to abstain from meats offered to idols, how much more so the idols themselves.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:
Quote:
But ... that they abstain from pollutions of idols — that is, things polluted by having been offered in sacrifice to idols. The heathen were accustomed to give away or sell portions of such animals. From such food James would enjoin the Gentile converts to abstain, lest it should seem to the Jews that they were not entirely weaned from idolatry.
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11/19/17 7:08 pm


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Post One word...and it's not the word you think. Aaron Scott
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11/20/17 10:19 am


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Post Re: What would you do? bradfreeman
Link wrote:
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.


It's OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass..."Go in peace."

2 Kings 5:18 In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.

Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19
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11/20/17 11:36 am


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Post Re: What would you do? Cojak
bradfreeman wrote:
Link wrote:
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.


It's OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass..."Go in peace."

2 Kings 5:18 In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.

Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19


Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the 'head shaving' equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many........... Shocked
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11/20/17 12:08 pm


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Post Re: What would you do? Link
Cojak wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Link wrote:
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.


It's OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass..."Go in peace."

2 Kings 5:18 In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.

Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19


Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the 'head shaving' equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many........... Shocked


During our conversation, between the two of us, he mentioned Naaman. Two counter-points to that:

1. Naaman was helping his master, not worshipping an idol himself.
2. Paul would later say that in the past God overlooked idolatry, but now is calling all men to repent.

We might also add that Elisha was not God. 'God in peace' is not the same thing as a 'Thus saith the Lord' endorsement.

No, shaving head in accordance with an ordinance that Yahweh gave for making a vow to Yahweh is not the same as bowing to Buddha. Paul's head shaving may have had to do with not encumbering himself with the additional unsworn hair. We don't know if he left the temple shaved or hairy. You could argue it both ways. The man who arrested him thought he was an Egyptian, so that may be an argument that he was shaved. But you can also argue from his account that he didn't finish the ceremony. He may have been quite hairy the rest of his life.

The man I spoke with seemed to exalt missiology over the Bible. He said the new converts could ask for forgiveness after bowing to an idol, but was in favor of it because he was convinced it would win souls. He was passionate about it as if bowing to Buddha was the key to soul winning.

This is one of those areas where outcome based ethics leads to really bad conclusions. But I don't believe this theory that bowing to Buddha is a key to conversion is accurate.
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Post UncleJD
I think I would have asked everyone if I was on Candid Camera and they were all pranking me.

I think you did the right thing, there is no way you can let idolatry be a "witness" tool.
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11/21/17 1:38 pm


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Post Re: What would you do? Nature Boy Florida
Link wrote:
Cojak wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Link wrote:
What would you do if you were in a meeting of Christians, many of them active in ministry, at a conference, and the one leading the meeting said it was okay to tell a new believer from a Buddhist background to continue to bow down to the statue of Buddha for a few months to keep the doors of relationship open with his family to win them to Christ?

Would you speak up? The format is it is being conducted like a business meeting, maybe 20 people max.


It's OK. Even under the old covenant, Naaman got a pass..."Go in peace."

2 Kings 5:18 In this matter may the Lord pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the Lord pardon your servant in this matter.” 19 He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance.

Under the new covenant, Paul shaved his head to reach Jews. Acts 18:18,19


Food for thought coming from a different angle, but still something to think about. Not sure the 'head shaving' equals bowing to Budda though. Maybe Being all things to win many........... Shocked


During our conversation, between the two of us, he mentioned Naaman. Two counter-points to that:

1. Naaman was helping his master, not worshipping an idol himself.
2. Paul would later say that in the past God overlooked idolatry, but now is calling all men to repent.

We might also add that Elisha was not God. 'God in peace' is not the same thing as a 'Thus saith the Lord' endorsement.

No, shaving head in accordance with an ordinance that Yahweh gave for making a vow to Yahweh is not the same as bowing to Buddha. Paul's head shaving may have had to do with not encumbering himself with the additional unsworn hair. We don't know if he left the temple shaved or hairy. You could argue it both ways. The man who arrested him thought he was an Egyptian, so that may be an argument that he was shaved. But you can also argue from his account that he didn't finish the ceremony. He may have been quite hairy the rest of his life.

The man I spoke with seemed to exalt missiology over the Bible. He said the new converts could ask for forgiveness after bowing to an idol, but was in favor of it because he was convinced it would win souls. He was passionate about it as if bowing to Buddha was the key to soul winning.

This is one of those areas where outcome based ethics leads to really bad conclusions. But I don't believe this theory that bowing to Buddha is a key to conversion is accurate.


Right on link.
You did the right thing - Naaman doesn't work here as these guys are doing it willingly.
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Post Here's the deal... Aaron Scott
If the new convert is WORSHIPING Buddha (I don't believe Buddhists worship Buddha), that is OF COURSE wrong. If it is a matter of simply being respectful, as was with Naaman, I'm not going to lose any sleep.

Consider this: If you were invited to a meal with a Muslim family, would you not show respect by, say, keeping silent while their prayer of thanks is prayed? Would you, to show your Christian bonafides, draw a picture of Mohammed just to aggravate them?

And if a Muslim came to your house and, when it was time to pray, simply bowed his head and showed reverence/respect for your Christian prayer, would you believe he had gotten saved? That he now rejected Islam?

Of course not.

Yes, in an ideal world, that Buddhist would never see, think about, and certainly not bow before a Buddhist statue. But in the real world, sometimes things are more complicated than that. Naaman's issue was based on the fact that, even though he acknowledged Elisha's God as the true God, he wanted leave to maintain a modicum respect for his king's beliefs.

Paul said something along the lines of "If someone puts food before you, but doesn't tell you it has been offered to an idol, ask no questions and eat. But if they TELL you that it was offered to an idol, THEN refrain (NOT because you would be worshipping the idol, since an idol is nothing)."

Americans seldom have had to wrestle with such things. About the worst in living memory would be Pentecostals being castigated by mainline churches.

If I visit a Mormon temple, I'm not going to start writing on the walls to desecrate the place and show my "real" Christianity.

If an atheist comes to dinner at my house, I don't assume he now magically believes in God because he simply shows respect by also bowing his head--or even saying "amen" with everyone else.

So if we feel that way about unbelievers, why do we think we shouldn't show similar respect?

I find that life is not all black and white in the trenches. I have people that come to church that are living together. Shall I tell them to get married or don't come back? No? What I did was urge them to get married (I don't charge anything, because I don't want that to be a barrier)...but if they are slow to do it, I am still going to welcome them, love them, and preach the truth to them.
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Post Re: Here's the deal... Cojak
Aaron Scott wrote:
If the new convert is WORSHIPING Buddha (I don't believe Buddhists worship Buddha), that is OF COURSE wrong. If it is a matter of simply being respectful, as was with Naaman, I'm not going to lose any sleep.

...
I find that life is not all black and white in the trenches. I have people that come to church that are living together. Shall I tell them to get married or don't come back? No? What I did was urge them to get married (I don't charge anything, because I don't want that to be a barrier)...but if they are slow to do it, I am still going to welcome them, love them, and preach the truth to them.


I appreciate that thoughtful comment. Lots of food for thought for us who like to read opinions. YOu inject some very good points.

I am enjoying this. I think it is a great post for comments. THANKS
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11/21/17 11:51 pm


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Post Cojak
I am sorry I haven't traveled in the area of the world Link is in. If I remember right he is in Indonesia (?sp). We have never traveled in that area and at our age probably never will. Wish I had thought of it earlier. Embarassed
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11/21/17 11:54 pm


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