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 Mat's advice about wise and safe conduct around women |
doyle |
Down in another thread, Mat gave some advice about wise conduct around women. We felt the topic is timely for more discussion. What Mat said:
As I Corinthians 7: 1 says, ..."it is good for a man not to touch a woman." With social media now so accessible to carry every woman's claim of being "sexually harassed" when they deem they have been touched inappropriately, men need to reevaluate being in the company of women.
If a old guy in a wheelchair, who is out in public for a picture (in Bush's case I think the woman wanted a picture to promote her project) can be deemed a sexual predator, any man in any situation had better take heed.
In church, I suggest you never be along with a woman for a moment. Never hug women or stand to close to them. In the car, never ride alone with a woman and in business never close the door of your office if you are meeting with a woman, but always keep the desk between you.
In public, such as stores, the streets or stadiums, move away from women and let them pass. Avoid tight spaces where you have to "squeeze by". Do not greet or speak to women you encounter where only you and her can hear what is said, and what ever you do, do not make any jokes, especially ones that involve any part of the human body, sex, or appearance. Do not compliment women on their looks or appearance. It might be safer to have a male barber, sale clerk and waiter, as well as male doctors and lawyers (you never know).
The way things are going, I don't want to get to retirement just to have some woman in a picture accuse me or being a "sexual predictor" and using the picture on social media as proof. Don't have you name and picture found on #metoo.
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The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.
Last edited by doyle on 11/25/17 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
11/13/17 1:05 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Here's a novel idea. Treat women with respect as if they are full grown adults and whole human beings. |
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Posts: 14803
11/13/17 1:38 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Here's a novel idea. Treat women with respect as if they are full grown adults and whole human beings. |
Agreed. I think there's a lot of wisdom in things like the Billy Graham rule - for both genders -- but twisting 1 Cor 7:1 to mean never interacting with females is next-level odd in my opinion. |
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Posts: 13654
11/13/17 1:53 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
I'm curious -- given the alleged prevalence of male sexual abuse -- if you gentlemen would encourage women to follow the same guidelines for their own safety. Not speaking to men in public, moving away from them and letting them pass, not doing business with men, etc.
Many on the feminist left encourage just that, and I have to admit that I find it kind of dehumanizing for someone to assume I am a predator just because of my gender. I wonder if women find it similarly dehumanizing for people to assume they will make false claims of sexual assault just because of their gender. |
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Posts: 13654
11/13/17 2:00 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
I agree with most of what Mat said, except for the part about not speaking to women. And men can hug women if it's a "side hug" where you don't touch chests.
I'm pretty sure we were counseled in MIP about not bring alone with someone of the opposite sex. If pastors are counseling a woman, he should always have his wife present or another witness like an associate pastor. If a woman insists she just wants to meet with you alone, refuse. If she wants counsel with the pastor, his wife is coming...it's a package deal, no exceptions. That is just wisdom.
It is my personal decision that I should never be alone with the opposite sex, if it's not my husband. A friend of mine was a bit offended that I didn't want to meet with him at his church to practice a song for my daughter's wedding because no one else was going to be there. It was nothing personal, just my personal "policy." My husband went with me. It's not that I didn't trust him or me, it's that you don't want to open yourself up to gossip or give the enemy any occasion to the flesh.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
11/13/17 10:23 pm
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| Around Women |
Change Agent |
Some of this advice sounds like Muslims may be right to keep their women covered. 
If christian men and women are highly attracted to each other for any reason they should use wise judgement to insure they are never along together. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
11/14/17 10:47 am
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| Re: Around Women |
Carolyn Smith |
| Change Agent wrote: | Some of this advice sounds like Muslims may be right to keep their women covered.
If christian men and women are highly attracted to each other for any reason they should use wise judgement to insure they are never along together. |
If a man is a rapist, it doesn't matter how the woman is dressed. Rape isn't usually about sex, it's about power. And so is the thinking, "We need to keep our women covered." It would not occur to my husband to tell me how to dress or what I am "allowed" to wear or not. It's never been an issue...I know how to dress modestly. A truly Christian woman will not dress in a provocative way.
But the enemy seeks to kill, steal, and destroy, and if there is attraction between two people, they need to set safeguards and not put themselves in a compromising situation. Men should have other men they are accountable to, if this is an area of weakness.
Affairs start in the mind/emotions long before it reaches the physical stage. If a person wants to avoid an affair, that is also where it must be stopped.
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"More of Him...less of me."
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
11/14/17 10:29 pm
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Chicago27 |
| In my opinion, as long as you treat both men and women equally, that’s a good first step. Men, do you only hug women or do you hug men and women equally? Do you call women names such as “honey†and “sweetie?†Stop it. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 253
11/15/17 8:12 am
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| My reaction to the OP |
bonnie knox |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | ... and I have to admit that I find it kind of dehumanizing for someone to assume I am a predator just because of my gender. I wonder if women find it similarly dehumanizing for people to assume they will make false claims of sexual assault just because of their gender. |
I did shake my head a little because I felt the OP is a bit of an overreaction. However, I do understand that the idea of being falsely accused is a frightful prospect (for anyone, male or female, and about things besides sexual impropriety). When that happens, it can be devastating, but I wonder if people are overly worried about how often it actually does happen (and not worried enough about how often sexual harassment has actually happened). I also wonder what precisely prompted the alarm. If H.W. Bush had no more motor control than could keep his hand off a woman's behind, well, yes, Doyle's advice about keeping a distance and not making jokes might be well stated. I would agree that if you are an old man in a wheelchair, yes, if you can't keep your hand from falling onto a woman's behind, don't pat it and make a joke, for crying out loud, just keep your hands in your lap.
If the case about Roy Moore prompted the OP, let's not get apoplectic just yet.
If the avalanche of accusations coming out of Hollywood prompted the OP, I would wonder why the angst isn't over how long how much junk went on without check.
I remember reading a blog post by Jennie Rae Armstrong who said
I felt downright betrayed in the mid-nineties, when Focus on the Family began circulating ridiculous stories about little boys being wrongfully accused of sexual harassment. This philosophical slight-of-hand [sic] effectively took the church’s eyes off the real problem—that girls and women were being shamefully mistreated at school and work—and cemented evangelicals’ jaundiced view of much-needed sexual harassment laws. I remember writing an impassioned letter to Dr. Dobson (who I had idolized up to that point), suggesting that he come take a walk down the hallways of my school, where girls wore running shorts under their skirts for fear of being “flipped,†where boys made up lewd songs about menstruation and masturbation to enjoy the sick power-trip of humiliating insecure teenage girls, and where stepping onto the school bus was like stepping into the crucible, an hour-long test of endurance that bore more resemblance to hyper-sexualized, post-apocalyptic anarchy than a peaceful ride home. I never sent the letter, but I did manage to convince my parents to start picking me up after school.
That gave me something to think about. False accusations are indeed alarming, so being outraged about them is a good response. However, it could be a mistake to misjudge the prevalence of them. It would be even worse to intentionally focus on false accusations while never addressing the problems that prompt the true accusations. |
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Posts: 14803
11/15/17 11:43 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
There was a pastor here in town - that had strict rules on men not hugging women or girls. He had above board rules for everything.
Except, little girls at his school would come to see him at his office (especially ones without the Dad living at home) and he would counsel them to help them.
He also molested them - but was covered for years because of his above board rules.
His sins were eventually found out - after ruining the lives of several young girls (3rd - 6th grade).
He died while on trial.
So - molesting isn't fixed by new rules.
However, the rules where women are treated with respect and not at anytime treated like you can put your hands on them for any reason is what I hope happens here.
It would help office interactions and even young couples dating to keep ones hands to themselves.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
11/21/17 8:57 am
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| I come back to the Bible ... |
Mat |
I come back to the Bible ... "its good for a man not to touch a woman" as the Apostle Paul taught.
Be clear, interaction with children and possible acts of child abuse are not the same thing as inappropriate words or actions towards adult women. Both are wrong, but the onus to report are two very different things.
When I first started out as a pastor (1979) there was a woman at our little church who would attended from time to time with her current husband and three kids. One day she said, "I don't like going to church and having men undress me with their eyes" in a very loud voice. As a young pastor, what I said was, "I don't think that is happening and I have never heard of any improper talk about you." What I really wanted to say was, "lady, if you were undressed men would be shouting 'put it back on ... my eyes, my eyes ... dear God make it stop." I was young and eager back then, but now that I'm old and worn, next time that happens I might just tell the truth.
Any act of child abuse, or question of child abuse, must be reported to the authorities. In the church, any accusation by a woman against a man (other than criminal behavior) should be brought before the elders or the church body for judgment as to who is telling the truth. In business, such complaints should be reported to HR, leading to an investigation. In all cases involving grown men and women, reports should be kept, documentation should be made and past history of behavior and complaints should be considered.
Everybody should consider who and how close they stand to someone in a picture - what was Al Franklen thinking?
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
11/25/17 12:12 pm
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