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 Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | It's hard to understand. But if God were to prevent horrible sin like this, then He would have no grounds for a final judgement on sin would He? I have to believe that the final reward for obedience outweighs this tragedy as well as the final judgement for sin will be a triumph for all. |
He could have prevented it and STILL had grounds. Why? Well, if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her.... That is, God judges the INTENTIONS, too. A man who runs over someone accidentally is very different before God than the man who did it intentionally.
Make sense? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/6/17 8:22 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
He could have prevented it and STILL had grounds. Why? Well, if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her.... That is, God judges the INTENTIONS, too. A man who runs over someone accidentally is very different before God than the man who did it intentionally.
Make sense? |
In the single instance, maybe, but not in the whole of history. If He'd prevented each horrible instance, then there would no longer actually be any such thing as intent since no one could intend something impossible. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
11/6/17 8:25 pm
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| Uncle JD...Richard Dawkins would claim his answer is quite logical. |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | . Horrible sin is committed every day.
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Why is it allowed then? I'm open to a logical response. I believe it is to show that He both allows your choices, and will ultimately judge them. |
That truth is, I think, that LOGICALLY, we cannot tell whether there is a God or isn't. Think about it: Wouldn't we EXPECT something like what happened to actually happen if there were no God?
That is why faith, even though there may be good reasons--and even evidence--for believing, is, ultimately, not a logical proposition. If it were, we could just "prove" matters and do a mic drop. But we can't (which doesn't stop us from trying).
The best I can come up with is that our frame of reference is so small compared to God's, that what we see as tragedy is working something...eventually.
The only thing worse, it sometimes seems, than there BEING a God...is there not being a God. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/6/17 8:27 pm
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Cojak |
Most of us see the problem from shaded eyes. We are blessed in this country to have had less of this. Since the Coptic Christians were knelt by the sea and slaughtered on film.m Since the ISIS has intentionally sought out and slaughtered CHRISTIANS by the hundreds I have thought WHY? I know beyond a shadow of a doubt If I saw people being killed all around me for being Christian I would be praying my heart out.
We have history to look at for martyrs that have been mentioned here. We have our Savior who was innocently killed before hundreds.
We American Christians are no more precious in His sight. But I do not think we are to be lambs lead to the slaughter until we have NO Choice.
Being wise and protecting our families is not UNChristian.
The questions listed in the OP are questions that many Christians have, mainly because we are Americans. They popped into my mind. WHY?
I have learned I get in trouble when I want a definitive answer concerning the actions of GOD. I can ask them, He might smile, shake His Noble head or in our vernacular palm His Face.
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jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
11/6/17 9:37 pm
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Link |
Those might be the wrong questions.
Did God warn James that Herod would put him to death with the sword? Tradition says Paul was beheaded. Did God warn him? Apparently, he had got the warning that he would suffer for Christ's name sake, and was willing to die.
Jesus warned Peter of what death he would die. It was already set, and he couldn't change it. Peter wanted to know about John, who hadn't gotten the same kind of warning.
We follow a Man who died on a cross.
But I do believe God can warn us of different things. How did He warned people in the Bible? Two ways I can think of are dreams and prophecies. This is one reason why it is important to allow prophecies and other revelations to be shared in church.
In the late 1990's, churches in Jakarta heard verbal reports of some of the suffering of Christians in the Malukus. The media did not report on a lot of this, but we heard the story of the teenager who refused to convert to Is|am and radicals chopped off his hand. He refused again, saying he was part of the army of God. Again, off with his other hand, and he held to his profession of faith. I hear the last thing he experienced was that he was killed. This may have been to some degree a religious civil war, since there was some fighting back by those professing to be Christians as well. It sounded like a lot of it was just flat out persecution of Christians.
A lot of these things were anecdotes and second hand stories. A young man I met in a house church said during the violence he saw a young man walking around holding his own mother's head. The one holding it was one of his classmates from high school.
This was a story I heard second hand, but I heard that in one of the churches in that area, someone got a prophecy in the church meeting. He shared it. The prophecy said to get out of the building. The people obeyed.... right before a bomb went off. The prophecy, and heeding it, saved the lives of the people in that church.
That's a good reason to reevaluate having a strict rule against prophecies and tongues and interpretations interrupting sermons also, IMO.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
11/6/17 11:02 pm
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| Re: Uncle JD... |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: |
He could have prevented it and STILL had grounds. Why? Well, if a man looks upon a woman to lust after her.... That is, God judges the INTENTIONS, too. A man who runs over someone accidentally is very different before God than the man who did it intentionally.
Make sense? |
In the single instance, maybe, but not in the whole of history. If He'd prevented each horrible instance, then there would no longer actually be any such thing as intent since no one could intend something impossible. |
Uncle JD, how would anyone know that God prevented it? I mean, a flat tire...a jammed gun...a long red light--any of these types of things could effectively ward off some tragedy (and no doubt have done so many times), without the bad guys every knowing that what they had intended was impossible. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/7/17 6:04 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | This is a necessary conclusion of neocharismatic/Word of Faith belief, and when we get to the point where we are saying that martyrs died because they weren't working hard enough to practice the faith, maybe we should pause to reevaluate that theology in the light of Scripture. |
Dave is on point in the above comment.
Sovereignty! God's Will! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/7/17 9:11 am
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| Re: Listen |
bradfreeman |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | This is a necessary conclusion of neocharismatic/Word of Faith belief, and when we get to the point where we are saying that martyrs died because they weren't working hard enough to practice the faith, maybe we should pause to reevaluate that theology in the light of Scripture. |
This is an interesting take. I do see where the WOF crowd can have you burdened with working your faith, quoting scripture, watching your confession, etc. These activities aren't bad, but when they become work and leave you restless, we miss the fact that faith looks a lot more like rest than work.
As Hebrews 4:3 says, "He who believes enters that rest."
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
11/7/17 11:07 am
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| Hogwash, Dave and OTCP |
Aaron Scott |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | Dave Dorsey wrote: | | This is a necessary conclusion of neocharismatic/Word of Faith belief, and when we get to the point where we are saying that martyrs died because they weren't working hard enough to practice the faith, maybe we should pause to reevaluate that theology in the light of Scripture. |
Dave is on point in the above comment.
Sovereignty! God's Will! |
Look, it's the same game we ALWAYS play when we don't like what someone else believes: We take some extreme example and say, "See, this is what happens if you believe this." HOGWASH.
That's like saying that OSAS folks believe that a person can be a practicing homosexual, child killer and go to heaven. Only the most fringe and extreme people would say that. Most OSAS folks are going to say something we would be more in alignment with, namely, "That person was never saved to begin with."
The OSAS do the same to us, claiming that we believe that if we let slip a bad word or have a bad thought 3 seconds before dying, we believe we're lost, since we could repent, etc.
DOUBLE HOGWASH.
The WOF movement is being seriously misrepresented--and I'm not even a WOFer (though I understand that I share some of their views). While a WOF person might indeed think that a person stays SICK because of a lack of sufficient faith, no mainstream WOFer is going to claim that a lack of faith caused those people to die.
If nothing else, the WOF does believe the Bible--even if they interpret it differently from you and I. They know that "in this world you will have tribulation."
This is just taking a tragedy and trying to earn theological brownie points. Yes, it gets an "amen," but only from those who have their own twisted views. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/7/17 12:12 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Aaron, I believed and taught WoF theology for 11+ years. I have listened to hundreds of hours of WoF preaching and teaching, mostly from speakers I continue to respect to some degree, even if I have come to profoundly disagree with them (e.g. not obvious money-grubbers preaching for shameful gain). With respect, I am not misrepresenting it, nor is it unfair to take a belief to its logical conclusion as a means of establishing it as invalid.
If one believes it is possible to hear from God 100% of the time, as a result of having faith in one's ability to hear from Him, then the only possible explanation for not hearing from Him is that the person sinned or made a mistake that prevented him or her from hearing correctly. The necessary conclusion of this belief is that the 27 Christians who died yesterday were not spiritually in a place where they were capable of listening to Him, OR that God didn't speak to them in a manner of extrabiblical direct revelation about the shooting (which introduces other issues, since WoF theology holds that believers have a covenantal right to trust God for perfect protection).
It just is what it is. It wasn't my intention to derail this thread into a discussion about WoF theology, and I don't think I have, but when I saw a poster saying maybe God did speak to them and they weren't in a place to hear Him, I had to point out the obvious. And I would note that despite me asking several times, that poster was unable to tell me specific actions the deceased could have taken to get to a place where they could have heard His warning and remained alive. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/7/17 12:38 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| The normal Christian life is intended to be led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, etc., certainly. The very same early church that lived the Spirit-led life in Acts faced many hardships, even persecution and death, as they continued to be led by the Spirit. Let us never forget that even Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. The idea that being led by the Spirit means an avoidance of problems is more akin to the “wish upon a star†ideas of men like Walt Disney rather than the wisdom of God. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
11/7/17 1:04 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Dave taught woffie error for 11 years, but no longer does so. I have relatives who have taught woffie error for years, I know what they believe, and I have in no way misrepresented the logical end of their error. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/7/17 1:15 pm
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| Listen Again |
renewal |
What I am reading here is that some do not believe they could have been warned.
God can and he will speak to us in our hearts.
And we can miss it...Again, I know that I have many times and can tell you some of the occasions.
I can also tell you that because he warned of danger safety was rendered.
I do not understand the idea that he cannot speak to us. We are supposed to be led by the Spirit daily. And we should be every day.
I asked a question did God speak to them? And we are reading that he could not have spoken to a person that day..
Why not? Who is to say? Not me...Could they have missed it? Have you ever missed it?
This is not about WOF, not at all..It is about God being able to speak to us.
And that is not WOF.. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/7/17 4:58 pm
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| Re: Listen Again |
Dave Dorsey |
| renewal wrote: | | Could they have missed it? |
Let's say they could have. The next natural question is: How could they have avoided missing it? Please answer that. It's a simple, straightforward question.
The guest preacher that day was named Bryan Holcombe. He was there with his wife Karla, their son Marc, their pregnant daughter-in-law Crystal, and their four grandchildren: Noah, Emily, Megan, and Greg.
They're dead now. They're all dead, all nine of them.
Please tell me -- it's a simple and straightforward request -- how Bryan Holcombe could have avoided missing God that day and losing his life and the lives of eight members of his family.
Thanks. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/7/17 5:46 pm
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Cojak |
I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED that if God sends you a message, YOU WILL GET IT. He will give you the message even if thru an ass. I have heard the snide remark to the pastor, 'If they had been here you would have burned their hide this morning.' If the message is meant for some one they might ignore it, but they will GET IT!
If God had a mission/ministry set for later in the life for a person in that congregation, he or she lived. If not HE was ready to receive them that morning. I know we do not like it, but doesn't the scripture say, "to die is gain?"
I have sang with many more in church, READY TO DIE! WAs I?
. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
11/7/17 7:42 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Cojak wrote: | | I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED that if God sends you a message, YOU WILL GET IT. |
As far as I am aware, this is true 100% of the time when God speaks to someone in Scripture. The neocharismatic "maybe that was Him, maybe it wasn't, I'm not sure but I'm going to step out in faith" does not have an example in Scripture so far as I am aware. There are certainly plentiful examples of people stepping out in faith, and passages like 1 Samuel 14:6. But none, so far as I know, in which God speaks but His mighty voice does not clearly reach its recipient. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/7/17 8:18 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| From reading some a the posts, the folk in Sutherland Springs, Charleston and other church shootings were carnal nonspiritual and basically refused to listen to God. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/8/17 10:02 am
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| or ... |
Mat |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | From reading some a the posts, the folk in Sutherland Springs, Charleston and other church shootings were carnal nonspiritual and basically refused to listen to God. |
Or, like believers around the world and through the centuries, who had their lives unexpectedly shortened, their bodies are "asleep" and their souls are with the Lord as they wait for the resurrection. Church is about being ready to meet the Lord, even if it comes in a way they would not want and sooner than they expected.
Having a secure church is not the same as having your salvation secure.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
11/8/17 10:25 am
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| Re: or ... |
Dave Dorsey |
| Mat wrote: | | Having a secure church is not the same as having your salvation secure. |
Amen, Mat. There aren't a lot of things we can conclusively draw from Scripture to answer our questions about things like this.
But we can draw everything from Scripture that we need to know -- namely, that all things work together for good for those who love God and who are called according to His purpose, that the death of His saints is precious in His sight, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, that Jesus Christ has conquered death through His death and resurrection, and that we have eternal life in Him by grace through faith.
Those are the things we know. Those are the things we need to know. One day, when we no longer see through the glass darkly, we may know more. But those are the things we know now. And those are the only things we need to know now. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/8/17 10:50 am
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| Re: or ... |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mat wrote: |
Having a secure church is not the same as having your salvation secure.
Mat |
Somebody get a paraphrase of this quote on the news - good stuff.
Secure salvation was more important than a secure church.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
11/8/17 10:57 am
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