 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 |
Dave Dorsey |
Incidentally, Origen held the view you're asking about. It was condemned as heresy at the Second Council of Constantinople* (I don't say that to end the conversation, or to call you a heretic -- just adding a historical tidbit to the conversation). Origen argued for it based on Romans 9:11-14 as well as Jeremiah 1:5, although pretty much everyone today would say he was incorrectly interpreting those passages through the lens of his Platonic understanding of the world.
With that said, both passages could conceivably imply the pre-existence of souls, Platonic or otherwise, OR they could be referring to God's foreknowledge. How can we determine which when the Bible doesn't specifically say? Well, by following the hermeneutical principle of interpreting the vague through the lens of the clear. The rest of the Bible has a lot to say about foreknowledge in a sense that doesn't imply the pre-existence of souls, and (to my knowledge) nothing to say about anything that would imply their pre-existence.
* http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/5/17 6:32 pm
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| Dave...appreciate it |
Aaron Scott |
You raised some very good points.
I am of the OPINION, though, that UNLESS the Bible is clear about something, we shouldn't necessarily consider it wrong to espouse the pre-existence of souls...although I don't know of anyone who does. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/5/17 8:04 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Dave...appreciate it |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | You raised some very good points.
I am of the OPINION, though, that UNLESS the Bible is clear about something, we shouldn't necessarily consider it wrong to espouse the pre-existence of souls...although I don't know of anyone who does. |
Would you consider it heretical, heterodox, or at the very least unfruitful and vain, for me to propose that God wears a pirate hat?
If you would consider it any of those things, can you show me something in the Bible that clearly states God does not wear pirate hats?
Just a silly example, of course -- I don't believe God wears a pirate hat. But I do think it's unfruitful and potentially dangerous to espouse something just because Scripture doesn't specifically state it isn't so. It's not an argument from silence, per se, but it is an argument for potential validity from silence. In my opinion, down that path lies madness.  Stick to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
We're also dancing around the issue of whether or not the Bible is clear on this subject. IMO (and not to appeal to authority, but in the opinion of the Second Council of Constantinople) it is clear. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/5/17 8:34 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Dave...appreciate it |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | I am of the OPINION, though, that UNLESS the Bible is clear about something, we shouldn't necessarily consider it wrong to espouse the pre-existence of souls...although I don't know of anyone who does. |
Mormonism wholeheartedly espouses it. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/5/17 9:16 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Dave...appreciate it |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | You raised some very good points.
I am of the OPINION, though, that UNLESS the Bible is clear about something, we shouldn't necessarily consider it wrong to espouse the pre-existence of souls...although I don't know of anyone who does. |
Would you consider it heretical, heterodox, or at the very least unfruitful and vain, for me to propose that God wears a pirate hat?
If you would consider it any of those things, can you show me something in the Bible that clearly states God does not wear pirate hats?
Just a silly example, of course -- I don't believe God wears a pirate hat. But I do think it's unfruitful and potentially dangerous to espouse something just because Scripture doesn't specifically state it isn't so. It's not an argument from silence, per se, but it is an argument for potential validity from silence. In my opinion, down that path lies madness. Stick to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
We're also dancing around the issue of whether or not the Bible is clear on this subject. IMO (and not to appeal to authority, but in the opinion of the Second Council of Constantinople) it is clear. |
I think the preexistence of souls is a fair thing to consider in terms of the spirit realm. And so, if someone espouses that, I cannot fault them without solid scriptural evidence. But the pirate hat thing, even though your point is will taken, does not have any particular attachment to scriptural/spiritual matters. That is, there are good reasons to ask about the preexistence of souls--after all, we believe in souls But there is no reason to ask whether God wears a pirate hat (but if you must know, He does...and wears an eye-patch, as well), since that is not a matter attached to any spiritual matter.
Make sense? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/6/17 11:41 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Dave...appreciate it |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | I think the preexistence of souls is a fair thing to consider in terms of the spirit realm. And so, if someone espouses that, I cannot fault them without solid scriptural evidence. But the pirate hat thing, even though your point is will taken, does not have any particular attachment to scriptural/spiritual matters. |
Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I would challenge you to name a single way in which the pre-existence of souls would affect one's journey of faith in Christ. One way in which knowledge about that would be necessary or beneficial for a Christian's faith and practice. It can't be done. And we know it can't be done, because if there was any possible benefit at all, the question would be addressed clearly in Scripture.
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Speculation about the hidden things is unprofitable, whether it's the pre-existence of souls or God wearing a pirate hat. We should stay focused on the words that were revealed. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/6/17 1:53 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Dave... |
Aaron Scott |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | | I think the preexistence of souls is a fair thing to consider in terms of the spirit realm. And so, if someone espouses that, I cannot fault them without solid scriptural evidence. But the pirate hat thing, even though your point is will taken, does not have any particular attachment to scriptural/spiritual matters. |
Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I would challenge you to name a single way in which the pre-existence of souls would affect one's journey of faith in Christ. One way in which knowledge about that would be necessary or beneficial for a Christian's faith and practice. It can't be done. And we know it can't be done, because if there was any possible benefit at all, the question would be addressed clearly in Scripture.
I think you might have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that the preexistence of souls would affect anything other than satisfying our curiosity, I suppose. HOWEVER, since the soul is part and parcel of our discussion of the spiritual universe, it it only reasonable that one might want to inquire...to understand just what the soul is, when it joins with the human body, etc.
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Speculation about the hidden things is unprofitable, whether it's the pre-existence of souls or God wearing a pirate hat. We should stay focused on the words that were revealed.
Dave, consider that the whole doctrine of the trinity is speculation--and one that, seemingly, doesn't hold water whether you are a trinitarian or oneness. But we deem it important to discuss because we want to know...and, possibly, because some formulations can lead to a very mistaken view of God, etc.
Same with the soul. If the soul does preexist, that doesn't mean it is hardwired with feelings, etc. It could be some sort of "generic" thing that is formed as we have experiences, etc. Who knows?
Again, I can't say I believe in the preexistence of souls...but at the same time, I cannot think of any particular doctrine that it would disrupt. I was inquiring in the hopes that maybe someone could shed light on it. And even though I am not seeing it your way, I think you came the closest to having a reasonable rebuttal to the notion.
God bless.
|
|
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/6/17 8:35 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Have our souls always existed? |
Link |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Was a soul created for us when we were conceived/born, etc.?
Or had that soul always existed, but then somehow merged with us?
Adam became a living SOUL. What is the difference in that usage and how we tend to see it today? |
If man became a living soul WHEN God breathed into Him the breath life, why would we believe his soul existed beforehand?
_________________
Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
11/6/17 11:03 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Link... |
Aaron Scott |
| Link wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | Was a soul created for us when we were conceived/born, etc.?
Or had that soul always existed, but then somehow merged with us?
Adam became a living SOUL. What is the difference in that usage and how we tend to see it today? |
If man became a living soul WHEN God breathed into Him the breath life, why would we believe his soul existed beforehand? |
Well, first of all, Adam is a unique event. He was created, not born. That MIGHT make a difference. Also, consider the fact that Adam came to life with, apparently, the full complement of adult understandings (i.e., he did not have to "grow up" and have experiences, etc., for him to be able to speak, to reason, and so forth).
Also, someone could argue that, if breath (so to speak) is the sine qua non of life, then an unborn child does not yet have a soul.
Other difficulties is just WHEN does the soul "come aboard"? The moment of conception? When?
These are flimsy points, I know. But so are all arguments regarding the soul. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/7/17 5:56 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Tom Sterbens |
Aaron,
Why haven't you posted your question on the Facebook COG Pastor's page? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
11/8/17 3:35 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Tom... |
Aaron Scott |
| It often seems that the FB is more geared to church growth, organization, etc. If you think it will fly there, put it up (and you can put my name to it). |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/8/17 7:28 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron,
It seems you often just want to post contrarian things to get vehement rebuttals.
Geneologies and such.
It's not fruitful.
Although I think you are a fruit - and since the Bible does not specifically say you are not - I believe it is true. 
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
11/8/17 8:27 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| NBF...watch it! |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Aaron,
It seems you often just want to post contrarian things to get vehement rebuttals.
Geneologies and such.
It's not fruitful.
Although I think you are a fruit - and since the Bible does not specifically say you are not - I believe it is true. |
NBF, I didn't know that the preexistence of souls was a contrarian thing, to be honest with you. I figured some folks probably believed it and some didn't. I was wanting to find out WHY they believed the way they do. It never struck me (and still doesn't) as a belief that would in any way endanger our own doctrines (except, perhaps, for the fact that you appear to have the soul of a very old spinster who likes to knit pretty little things for her only friend).
 |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/8/17 12:06 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
UncleJD |
| so if all souls always existed, then God is not pre-existent? Or are you saying that God created all souls at some point in the past and pulls them out for use whenever a child is conceived? If that's so is the number of souls in the box, cave, room, analogous to the time left for the earth? I saw a movie once with Christopher Walken I think where the anti-christ was a child born without a soul because the "well of souls" was empty. Is that what spurred this thread? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
11/8/17 12:18 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Uncle JD...no, that's not what spurred this thread |
Aaron Scott |
| UncleJD wrote: | | so if all souls always existed, then God is not pre-existent? Or are you saying that God created all souls at some point in the past and pulls them out for use whenever a child is conceived? If that's so is the number of souls in the box, cave, room, analogous to the time left for the earth? I saw a movie once with Christopher Walken I think where the anti-christ was a child born without a soul because the "well of souls" was empty. Is that what spurred this thread? |
It would not be an issue if all souls had existed as long as God has. After all, one can suppose (I suppose) that the seven spirits of God mentioned in Revelation have been around as long as God.
But the truth is that I meant something along the lines of the second thing--namely, that souls had at some earlier point been created, then "transplanted" into a human.
As for the movie, I never heard of it. I'm Church of God. And we have historically stood against worldly amusements. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/8/17 12:26 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Uncle JD...no, that's not what spurred this thread |
Dave Dorsey |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | It would not be an issue if all souls had existed as long as God has. After all, one can suppose (I suppose) that the seven spirits of God mentioned in Revelation have been around as long as God. |
This is actually the view which is most clearly heretical, so it is an issue. Eternal pre-existence is one of many incommunicable attributes of the Godhead. Nothing else, including spirits or angels, can share this attribute without profoundly compromising Christian orthodoxy. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/8/17 12:34 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | As for the movie, I never heard of it. I'm Church of God. And we have historically stood against worldly amusements. |
Aaron, I hear you! We grew up without a TV, but alas I was corrupted, for when we visited other people, sometimes the TV would be on! (I can still remember a commercial where a buxom blonde said "Dig it, baby!" I think it was an advertisement for music--probably 8-track tapes, lol.) I remember one of the weirdest things ever was some sort of love story where a young pair of soul mates were in heaven awaiting their assignments for their bodies. They had the terrible misfortune of being assigned in different times. That was my first introduction to the idea that souls might pre-exist bodies. It was totally weird to me. Later when I found out Mormons believed that, I just figured that movie was produced by Mormons. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
11/8/17 1:44 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | except, perhaps, for the fact that you appear to have the soul of a very old spinster who likes to knit pretty little things for her only friend |
Aaron, I hope your new wool socks aren't scratchy.  |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
11/8/17 1:46 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Fruit? Fruit? I think you two are a "pair" |
bonnie knox |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Aaron,
It seems you often just want to post contrarian things to get vehement rebuttals.
Geneologies and such.
It's not fruitful.
Although I think you are a fruit - and since the Bible does not specifically say you are not - I believe it is true. |
|
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
11/8/17 1:47 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Uncle JD...no, that's not what spurred this thread |
UncleJD |
| Aaron Scott wrote: |
As for the movie, I never heard of it. I'm Church of God. And we have historically stood against worldly amusements. |
Clearly you did not go to LEE |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3138
11/8/17 1:52 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
