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John 16:7-9 Your Thoughts on This Interpretation

 
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Post John 16:7-9 Your Thoughts on This Interpretation Preacher777
I am not quick to preach things about scripture when I haven't heard the type of revelation shared elsewhere, especially on popular scriptures that are often used (John versus Leviticus). We can help and encourage one another by giving constructive criticism or encouragement based upon our opinions about the interpretation of scripture. Therefore, I ask for your feedback on my interpretation of how the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

I was regularly teaching/preaching and we were doing Bible study discussions from John chapters 14-17. One morning while studying my message I had this thought-revelation about John 16:7-9 (NAS) But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [p]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

The thought came to me as to how the Holy Spirit will and does convict the world of sin. I never heard an unsaved guy say, "I was regularly flirting and messing around with this woman at the bar and then the Holy Ghost convicted me so strongly that I ran home and hugged my wife all night! Unsaved people I know bragg about how he or she can take things from the company of get paid while not putting out effort at work. However, I never heard an unsaved person say, "I was cutting corners at work and the Holy Ghost came all over me so I cried out in repentance.

When studying the context of this passage I believe Jesus shows us that the world is convicted through our lifestyle and word we share with them whether in personal evangelism or public preaching (the Word that is sharper than a 2 edged sword).

The reason I say this is because the context John 15:20-16:4 (NAS) Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have [j]sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have [k]sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’
26 “When the [l]Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 [m]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:1:  “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 [n]They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. 4 But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you [o]may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Notice Jesus warned the disciples that just as His works, lifestyle and words convicted the world of their sin ours works, lifestyle and anointed Word should do the same. I believe these passages show us that we need to realize that a friend of the world is an enemy of God. If we are really serving God in our lifestyle and sharing the truth of God's Word I believe these passages show us many unsaved people will be offended. The apostles were told they would be thrown out of the synagogues and beaten. Should we expect the unsaved to love us unconditionally? Are there times we compromise the truth to be accepted and liked on an individual basis and as a church when dealing with the community? Summing things up, could it be that Jesus told us being like Him could have people being angry with and hating us?
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10/7/17 7:57 am


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Post bradfreeman
Context is key. Who is "the world?" It's definitely not everyone. Here's what Jesus explained earlier in this John 14-16 message:

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

So who is "the world" that hated Jesus? It wasn't the drunkards, whores and tax collectors. It was the religious system, the Pharisees. His disciples were not "the world" the Spirit would be convicting.

John 16:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

What sin is He convicting "the world" of? It's definitely not every sin. Jesus said they wouldn't have this sin if He hadn't spoken to them the words and done the works of His Father. Surely, they had sin...all have sinned. This is a specific sin. A sin they would not have had if He hadn't come...UNBELIEF. He came and spoke the words and did the works so they would believe.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

So the Spirit convicts the religious world of its unbelief. The Law convicts people of transgressions of the Law.

Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

James 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Notice Paul doesn't say: "By the Spirit comes the knowledge of sin" or "I would not have known sin except by the Spirit."

James doesn't say: "If you show partiality, you are convicted by the Spirit."

If you harden your heart to what the Spirit says, you are convicted of unbelief.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

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Post Am I or Brad Right? Your Opinion? Preacher777
Brad, I really appreciate your input and the time you spent responding to my post. However, I disagree with your statement about Jesus responding to the religious leaders and not the sinners such as drunkards, whores and tax collectors. Jesus stated that the Holy Spirit would convict THE WORLD of sin. I believe the Bible teaches us that everybody is either a follower of Christ (believers) or of the world.

Even if I were to agree with you that the Law is what convicts the drunkard, whore and tax collector of sin how would they know apart from the Holy Spirit working through a believer? Has anyone ever heard of an unsaved person stealing from his/her company or being in an adulterous affair saying, "I was in this sin but the Law convicted me?"

Okay Bible readers out there I am open to other opinions. Whose.interpretation is correct, Brad or mine?
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10/10/17 12:40 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
To Brad, all prostitutes, drunkards, etc... are not sinners...unless they join the Jewish church and follow the law. You kind of need to hang out here a while to understand.
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10/10/17 3:37 pm


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Post Da Sheik
It's a shame that threads regarding scripture get so few replies, but such is the culture here. I certainly agree that our lifestyle is either the fragrance of death or life to this world. However, I do not in any way believe that this passage is suggesting that the Church is somehow doing something that only the Holy Spirit can do.

As Brad mentioned, the specific sin is that of unbelief. The only way a person can believe is if the Spirit opens their eyes and draws them to God.
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10/11/17 12:06 pm


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Post Preacher777
Da Sheik wrote: As Brad mentioned, the specific sin is that of unbelief. The only way a person can believe is if the Spirit opens their eyes and draws them to God.

Da Sheik, I tend to agree with a lot of your comments and.positions but not here. I don't see how one can separate the sin of unbelief as a different thing from the world Jesus referred to in this passage. The whoremonger, drunkard etc. act.out their sinful ways due to unbelief so they are one and the same. The Bible teaches repentance from sin as part of the salvation process. Those who do not believe have no need for repentance. Therefore, the Holy Ghost in us separates us, our words and actions from those in the world if we repent and believe in Jesus.
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10/12/17 9:15 am


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Post Re: Am I or Brad Right? Your Opinion? bradfreeman
Preacher777 wrote:
Brad, I really appreciate your input and the time you spent responding to my post. However, I disagree with your statement about Jesus responding to the religious leaders and not the sinners such as drunkards, whores and tax collectors. Jesus stated that the Holy Spirit would convict THE WORLD of sin. I believe the Bible teaches us that everybody is either a follower of Christ (believers) or of the world.

Even if I were to agree with you that the Law is what convicts the drunkard, whore and tax collector of sin how would they know apart from the Holy Spirit working through a believer? Has anyone ever heard of an unsaved person stealing from his/her company or being in an adulterous affair saying, "I was in this sin but the Law convicted me?"

Okay Bible readers out there I am open to other opinions. Whose.interpretation is correct, Brad or mine?


Jesus defines "the world" in his sermon from John 14-16. It's those who hate him. He ate with, drank with and was a friend of sinners. He was hated by religion. So which is "the world" he is referring to?

He clearly says His disciples were "not of the world" (Jn 15:18). Since the Spirit convicts "the world", does this mean the Spirit is not convicting them of sin?

I am curious to now your thoughts on John 16:22-24 at to what Jesus meant when He said "they would have no sin" if He hadn't come and spoken to them? He can't be saying they'd have been better off if Jesus hadn't come.
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Post Da Sheik
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (NIV)

This was my main point of emphasis in my earlier remarks. I think we are in agreement in substance, just not semantics.
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Post Re: John 16:7-9 Your Thoughts on This Interpretation Quiet Wyatt
Your interpretation is spot on, Preacher777. Jesus' reference to the Spirit as "the Helper," clearly points to the help He would give to believers when He (the Spirit) came in Acts 2, making them become living witnesses for Jesus' name. We know of course that the Spirit has been in the world/creation ever since creation, and we know the Spirit mightily anointed and convicted people via the prophets of old and even the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus prior to Acts 2. An entirely new order/covenant was coming though, in which the Spirit would be poured out on all flesh/mankind, and according to Jesus in Luke 24 and in Acts 1, the outpouring would start with the disciples, as we see occurring in Acts 2 and following. God may speak to mankind via creation and conscience, of course (see Romans 1 and 2), but ultimately He prefers to use human vessels to bear witness of the truth to mankind. As Paul said in Romans 10, how shall they hear without a preacher?

Preacher777 wrote:
I am not quick to preach things about scripture when I haven't heard the type of revelation shared elsewhere, especially on popular scriptures that are often used (John versus Leviticus). We can help and encourage one another by giving constructive criticism or encouragement based upon our opinions about the interpretation of scripture. Therefore, I ask for your feedback on my interpretation of how the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

I was regularly teaching/preaching and we were doing Bible study discussions from John chapters 14-17. One morning while studying my message I had this thought-revelation about John 16:7-9 (NAS) But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [p]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

The thought came to me as to how the Holy Spirit will and does convict the world of sin. I never heard an unsaved guy say, "I was regularly flirting and messing around with this woman at the bar and then the Holy Ghost convicted me so strongly that I ran home and hugged my wife all night! Unsaved people I know bragg about how he or she can take things from the company of get paid while not putting out effort at work. However, I never heard an unsaved person say, "I was cutting corners at work and the Holy Ghost came all over me so I cried out in repentance.

When studying the context of this passage I believe Jesus shows us that the world is convicted through our lifestyle and word we share with them whether in personal evangelism or public preaching (the Word that is sharper than a 2 edged sword).

The reason I say this is because the context John 15:20-16:4 (NAS) Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have [j]sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have [k]sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’
26 “When the [l]Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 [m]and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:1:  “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. 2 [n]They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. 4 But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you [o]may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Notice Jesus warned the disciples that just as His works, lifestyle and words convicted the world of their sin ours works, lifestyle and anointed Word should do the same. I believe these passages show us that we need to realize that a friend of the world is an enemy of God. If we are really serving God in our lifestyle and sharing the truth of God's Word I believe these passages show us many unsaved people will be offended. The apostles were told they would be thrown out of the synagogues and beaten. Should we expect the unsaved to love us unconditionally? Are there times we compromise the truth to be accepted and liked on an individual basis and as a church when dealing with the community? Summing things up, could it be that Jesus told us being like Him could have people being angry with and hating us?
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10/12/17 2:47 pm


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Post Cojak
Da Sheik wrote:
John 6:44 �No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (NIV)

This was my main point of emphasis in my earlier remarks. I think we are in agreement in substance, just not semantics.


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As I read it YES! I am not smart enough to give a written answer, but that is what I see in the post.

I also agree that questions on Scripture have very little input, for the sake of exposing oneself to castigation by someone else who 'STRONGLY' sees it different.

Interesting post by 777, one of the good guys! Cool
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10/14/17 10:21 pm


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Post Thanks for the Input on these Scriptures Preacher777
Brad Freeman wrote:

John 15:18 �If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

So who is "the world" that hated Jesus? It wasn't the drunkards, whores and tax collectors. It was the religious system, the Pharisees. His disciples were not "the world" the Spirit would be convicting.

John 16:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

What sin is He convicting "the world" of? It's definitely not every sin. Jesus said they wouldn't have this sin if He hadn't spoken to them the words and done the works of His Father. Surely, they had sin...all have sinned. This is a specific sin. A sin they would not have had if He hadn't come...UNBELIEF. He came and spoke the words and did the works so they would believe.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

So the Spirit convicts the religious world of its unbelief. The Law convicts people of transgressions of the Law.

Preacher 777 Response: I appreciate Brad and everybody else taking the time to discuss scripture in a loving, civil way. Sometimes I learn more by listening to opposing views and at times see that my original premise was wrong. At those times I am glad for those who steer me into the truth.

However, in this situation, after examining the scriptures presented in opposing views and studying more scripture I hold onto my original thoughts concerning this passage. I believe the Bible clearly teaches 2 classes of people, children of God and those whose father is the devil. Children of light and children of darkness. Those who repent from sin, accept Christ nd those who reject His blood and choose to live in darkness. Jesus and Paul were pretty direct in their conversations and I don't see hidden subsets of sinners with different techniques to reach them.

EVEN IF Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders only here with no further application to other unsaved people (the world) and the Law was the mechanism for sinners Jesus words here still speak of the Holy Ghost in us convicting the world of sin through his/her being under the Law and not able to fulfill it. How does the Holy Spirit work in and through us to convict the world of sin? BY our righteous lives being the light that exposes darkness (if the light never comes their darkness would not be exposed). Another way the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin is by anointing the Word whether in preaching, teaching or personal one on one conversations.

Therefore, I agree the Holy Spirit is the one who draws people to Himself. However, we as believers must be open to the fact that the Holy Spirit may want to use us to speak His words just as Jesus did when on the earth regardless of whether it is popular or causes us to be persecuted, disliked, have people offended and mad at us. I believe this scripture and John 14-16 in context teach that sometimes people get offended because our light which affects who we are, what we do and don't do and say will offend people.

Many times Jesus stated that AS LONG AS HE IS IN THE WORLD He is the light of the world. Paul later shared with believers who were in the world after the Holy Ghost came: Philippians 2:14-16: Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you ]appear as ]lights in the world, 16 holding [ah]fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
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10/19/17 8:18 am


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Post Re: Thanks for the Input on these Scriptures bradfreeman
Preacher777 wrote:
I appreciate Brad and everybody else taking the time to discuss scripture in a loving, civil way. Sometimes I learn more by listening to opposing views and at times see that my original premise was wrong. At those times I am glad for those who steer me into the truth.

However, in this situation, after examining the scriptures presented in opposing views and studying more scripture I hold onto my original thoughts concerning this passage. I believe the Bible clearly teaches 2 classes of people, children of God and those whose father is the devil. Children of light and children of darkness. Those who repent from sin, accept Christ nd those who reject His blood and choose to live in darkness. Jesus and Paul were pretty direct in their conversations and I don't see hidden subsets of sinners with different techniques to reach them.


I agree that there are no subsets of sinners. There are only 2 types of people in the world (with various labels)- believers and unbelievers, the righteous and the unrighteous, the children of light and the children of darkness, those whose Father is God and those whose Father is the devil

Quote:
EVEN IF Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders only here with no further application to other unsaved people (the world) and the Law was the mechanism for sinners Jesus words here still speak of the Holy Ghost in us convicting the world of sin through his/her being under the Law and not able to fulfill it. How does the Holy Spirit work in and through us to convict the world of sin? BY our righteous lives being the light that exposes darkness (if the light never comes their darkness would not be exposed). Another way the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin is by anointing the Word whether in preaching, teaching or personal one on one conversations.


The world doesn't get saved by seeing that their lifestyles are unacceptable and coming into agreement with us about what is and is not sin. The world gets saved by abandoning their efforts to save themselves and coming to faith in God.

Quote:
Therefore, I agree the Holy Spirit is the one who draws people to Himself. However, we as believers must be open to the fact that the Holy Spirit may want to use us to speak His words just as Jesus did when on the earth regardless of whether it is popular or causes us to be persecuted, disliked, have people offended and mad at us. I believe this scripture and John 14-16 in context teach that sometimes people get offended because our light which affects who we are, what we do and don't do and say will offend people.


Jesus message indeed offended some. It offended those who trusted in their own righteousness and looked down on others, those who exalted themselves, those who wore sheeps clothes, those who felt they didn't need a physician. His message didn't offend the drunkard, the whore and the tax collector. They loved Jesus, welcomed Him into their homes and shared their food and wine with Him. For the poor, the blind, those in prison, the Spirit anointed Him to preach Good News, recovery of sight and freedom. This is what Holy Ghost ministry looks like:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”
Luke 4:18

You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 10:38

Quote:
Many times Jesus stated that AS LONG AS HE IS IN THE WORLD He is the light of the world. Paul later shared with believers who were in the world after the Holy Ghost came: Philippians 2:14-16: Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you ]appear as ]lights in the world, 16 holding [ah]fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.


We are the light of the world. Jesus said those who hated Him would hate us. Let's allow the Holy Spirit to use us the same way He used Jesus:
To preach Good News to the poor. GOOD NEWS.
To proclaim release to the captives. RELEASE.
To proclaim recovery of sight to the blind. RECOVERY.
To set free those who are oppressed. FREEDOM.
To proclaim the year of God's favor. FAVOR.
To go about doing good and healing all who are oppressed by the devil.

Jesus came to show us a Father we could trust, a Father we could believe in.
The Holy Spirit does the same: Bringing Jesus words and works to our remembrance so we can believe; Bringing us to faith.
Hear what the Spirit says: Today if you hear His voice, don't harden your heart.[/b]
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10/21/17 5:58 am


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Post Repost from another thread...FWIW Tom Sterbens
Consider following the flow of the third person plural pronouns, which I have highlighted, throughout the text below.

John 15:18–16:2 (NASB95)
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19 ...., because of this the world hates you.
20 ... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 “But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.
22 “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, .....
23 “He who hates Me hates My Father also.
24 “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’
26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

1 “These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling.
2 “they will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

From Ben Witherington III - "John's Wisdom, pg 261:
Ben Witherington wrote:
"The fact that it is said to come from "their Law" reveals the world here is chiefly associated with the Jewish opposition to Jesus, as becomes abundantly clear by the reference to the synagogue in 16:2."


Although my opinion is that "the world" is NOT comprised solely of the Jewish "haters," yet a couple things seem to become clear to me:

In this passage the Jews, who regard themselves as "the chosen/elect" from out of the rest of the world, are simply thrown back in together with "the world," in terms of their mindset. The Jews would have perceived such a thing as a tremendous insult of course. Further, I think there is a subliminal message on a new "chosen" (if you will) who are distinct from both "the world" in general and the Jews in particular. (A lot more could be said here....)
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