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A (sad) thought about healing....
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Post A (sad) thought about healing.... Aaron Scott
There are some very thoughtful and reasonable arguments in support of it not always being God's will to heal. But one thing that troubles me when we start thinking about it is this....

It seems that it is not God's will to heal in a manner that is statistically different from a random, coincidental pattern. If we saw more healings, say, at an Oral Roberts revival, might that not simply be because there were so many sick folks there who had come to receive healing?

If we randomly picked, say, 200 sick people and half of them went to a healing revival...and the other half went to a medicine man (or a doctor--or did nothing at all--for that matter)...but the rate of "getting better" was about equal, and the rate of a "miraculous recovery" was also about equal, then do we dare continue our claim that God is in the healing business?

Now, it could be claimed that, yes, God does heal. That even if it is no better than any other method, it is, at the same time, no worse than any other method. But I can't imagine that any of us think that a good "selling point" about healing is "Hey, it's no worse than doing nothing."

But in the Bible, we can't seem to find a single failure when the apostles prayed for the sick--and certainly none when Jesus prayed. Why the big difference? Is it because advances in medicine have made it unnecessary for God to intervene much? Do we depend too much on other avenues of healing (is that a bad thing?). Has our faith faltered? WHAT???

I cannot imagine that those who sit in our pews, even though I am sure they are appreciative of our prayers, are unaware that, well, not much really happens, does it. Yes, if you have a cold and get prayer, I can almost guarantee you that "God" is going to help you get better. And if you are an atheist...I can also pretty much guarantee you that you're going to get better.

I am reminded of Granny's sure-fire potion for the cold on the Beverly Hillbillies. Everyone was enthralled that she might have some near-magic elixir that would heal this problem. Eventually, it was revealed that, "Yep, take a good does of Granny's medicine and in about a week, that cold will be GONE!"

Is anyone else bummed out that the Pentecostal rate of healing success looks about the same as any method of "healing"?

If you are bummed out about it, how do we respond to this? Do we just keep praying, almost "pretending" that God is going to do something? Or what?

Your thoughts appreciated.
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Post Aaron, if you leave America brotherjames
And American ways of thinking and travel with me to South America and Africa you will experience a different reality. Your comments, while perhaps well intentioned musings, are not only unscriptural but lacking in faith because of your limited experiences in this realm.

It has nothing to do with how many might be in a crowd, And chance. God still heals. He is not capricious nor is He whimsical. He has declared to us His Name Jehovah Rapha, the Lord our Healer. He who changes not revealed His nature in His Son as well. How many did Jesus heal, ALL who came to Him, with or without faith.

I Have seen multiplied miracles over the years all over the world, the most amazing things I Have beheld but I will freely admit America is harder. Why? We are skeptical, we Have great medical treatments at our beck And call and God's wisdom from medicine is available to all. In most places, it is not. So people come with a different attitude. Some come expecting And receive but some do not. Some come with no expectation And receive some do not. I don't understand it all but this I know it is more than chance or randomness. It is God. What are the odds a deaf boy could be made to hear by merely speaking words he cannot hear over Him? Pretty impossible by any known standard And yet it has, And continues to happen everywhere I go And not to just me. My friends who travel the third world preaching Jesus experience it too because Jesus said these signs would occur to confirm the words we are speaking about Jesus - the Gospel. And, Aaron He will do it for you or anyone who dares to speak And declare Jesus. America is sometimes difficult but if you chalk it up to randomness I guarantee that's what you will get. Have faith in God, His revealed nature, Hus unchanging Son And His Word. You shall See it, in His mighty Name that is above every Name.
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10/7/17 12:07 pm


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Post BrotherJames... Aaron Scott
brotherjames wrote:
And American ways of thinking and travel with me to South America and Africa you will experience a different reality. Your comments, while perhaps well intentioned musings, are not only unscriptural but lacking in faith because of your limited experiences in this realm.

It has nothing to do with how many might be in a crowd, And chance. God still heals. He is not capricious nor is He whimsical. He has declared to us His Name Jehovah Rapha, the Lord our Healer. He who changes not revealed His nature in His Son as well. How many did Jesus heal, ALL who came to Him, with or without faith.

I Have seen multiplied miracles over the years all over the world, the most amazing things I Have beheld but I will freely admit America is harder. Why? We are skeptical, we Have great medical treatments at our beck And call and God's wisdom from medicine is available to all. In most places, it is not. So people come with a different attitude. Some come expecting And receive but some do not. Some come with no expectation And receive some do not. I don't understand it all but this I know it is more than chance or randomness. It is God. What are the odds a deaf boy could be made to hear by merely speaking words he cannot hear over Him? Pretty impossible by any known standard And yet it has, And continues to happen everywhere I go And not to just me. My friends who travel the third world preaching Jesus experience it too because Jesus said these signs would occur to confirm the words we are speaking about Jesus - the Gospel. And, Aaron He will do it for you or anyone who dares to speak And declare Jesus. America is sometimes difficult but if you chalk it up to randomness I guarantee that's what you will get. Have faith in God, His revealed nature, Hus unchanging Son And His Word. You shall See it, in His mighty Name that is above every Name.


My brother, I hear you. My deep concern is not that there are no miracles happening...but that so precious few seem to happen here.

It bothers me because, well, it smacks of the notion that, apparently, miracles typically happen not only a long way from America (where we get to hear about it, but not see it), but that it seemingly CANNOT happen in America, due to our "intelligence," etc.

I like to think that if unbelievers saw miracles, that would help them to see that God is real, etc.

I like to think that of all the places on earth that NEED miracles, surely America is in need of seeing them.

If someone told you that 90 people were raised from the dead at the same time in a graveyard, but that it happened in some remote place where there were no cameras, etc., that's going to be a bit of a bother.

I like to believe! I want to believe even more! But just as Gideon asked about the miracles that seemed to have vanished in his day, I, too, am questioning why they seem to have vanished in OUR day?

It is not a lack of faith (I don't think). It is "exhausted faith," perhaps. To believe, to pray, to do all you know to do...only to find out that God is apparently showing Himself alive on the other side of the world to people who are not even (yet) believers, but will not do that same here for people who have served Him for decades...yeah, that's tough.

I am simply trying to get my head around the matter of why it doesn't happen for us like we hear it USED to happen...and like we hear it is still happening (in places far from here).

But here is the crux of it all.... We ALL believe (I trust) that God USED to perform great miracles. I imaging that most of us still believe He DOES perform great miracles. But if God is not performing great miracles for us or through us--but is instead doing it elsewhere (anywhere but here, it seems)--then that is very close to being effectively the same as those who believe miracles have ceased...because, in a sense, they will have ceased...for us.

I hear all sorts of things that happen around the world. I believe quite a bit of them. I am also convinced that many of them are scams to some degree.

Here is something from the Church of God Sunday School Commentary:

Quote:

The Lord seems to be saying to naturally ignorant, rather than willfully ignorant, hearers of the Gospel, “Witness My miraculous work among you and trust in the redemptive power of My Son to set you free from sin and to set you on a victorious spiritual journey.”


“Miracles are the swaddling clothes of infant churches.”—Thomas Fuller



Apparently, churches seem to outgrow the need for miracles. But I still feel the need for miracles. After all, people are still dying of disease right here in America. People still need divine intervention, don't they?
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Post Quiet Wyatt
I have often thought that we would have more miracles if we were truly apostolic-evangelistic in thrust like the church in the Book of Acts was. I also think you have to factor in the overall lukewarmness or even spiritual deadness that exists today in many so-called Pentecostal churches in the USA. And then there is the rather obvious fact that miracles, by definition, must be the exception rather than the rule itself.

Also, regarding the apostles, Paul said he left Trophimus sick at Miletus, and Epaphroditus had been sick for an extended time, almost to the point of death, so the idea is shown to be quite false, that the apostles and those they ministered among basically walked in perpetual divine health, as the WoFers claim is the Christian's right.
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10/7/17 5:32 pm


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Post Cojak
Stepping out here. I personally think in the 30-40-50's eras in all fundamental healing believing churches the average member COULD NOT afford a doctor or hospital bill and were more will to PUT IT IN THE LORD'S HANDS..... really.

Now that we have insurance or gov't assistance Less folk ACTUALLY TRUST in the LORD. Right now I am sick. I have asked one person to pray for me, and that incidental to answering an IM. I & my wife prayed but I also did everything I could think of to ease my problem. Just now it is Green tea and Honey.

OF COURSE I believe it is GOD's Will to heal. at the same time we know something is gonna take us out of here. And Paul's thorn in the flesh that with all the preaching and dissertations on the subject could have been every thing from bad eye sight to a penchant to desire WOMEN illicitly.

I want to say lack of personal commitment and faith. But then I am bunching myself with a lot of losers, well at best losers of faith!
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Post diakoneo
As a believing Christian there is at least one good result when we are not instantly healed miraculously: we keep praying...but that in itself is pretty good.

Jesus told Peter that, "Satan desired to have him and sift him like wheat" That doesn't sound too fun. Jesus didn't tell Peter he wouldn't have to go through some stuff. He said, "I prayed for you..." that should be enough.

What was His prayer that Peter wouldn't have to go through it? No but that Peter's faith not fail. Having enough faith is not always that you have enough faith to not go through it but faith that Jesus is there and that we trust that He is, even when we don't get it. Do we stop praying? Stop believing? Well if you believe some WoFers, you pray one time and that is all. Anymore shows your lack of faith. I remember the first church I pastored I followed a Church of God Lee University graduate who taught that. Some of the folks were afraid to come to the altar and pray for certain things because they had already asked for it. It took a while to unravel some of this and to be honest I think most NEVER believed differently. Their faith was in their faith and not a whole lot I could the short time I was there.

These kind of negative experiences with WoF teachers lead many of us to be very much anti-Wof.

If everything went our way just simply by rebuking or speaking a word many of us would weaken in true faith. But we fast and pray and dig in and are still beaten up on the threshing floor. Was Job lacking in faith? I don't think so!
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Post I certainly didn't mean for you to misunderstand me brotherjames
While America is different and harder in many ways than foreign fields, nonetheless we ARE experiencing miracles here too, today. But, you missed what I said. If you have not been overseas, especially to South or central america and Africa you will not understand how God moves in those places. It is NOT hyperbole to say there are many, many more miracles experienced there than here in the US. Believe it, no scams, I have many videos of people actually being healed before your eyes and the videos represent a fraction of what we have seen ovdr the years. As to why these things aren't happening here to the same degree (they do happen though), I refer you to my previous post. Our reliance upon good medical help and the ease we have in getting that, complicates the problem. Many people including Pentecostals, only turn to prayer AFTER they have exhausted every OTHER way. The attitudinal differences of people in third world countries vs America is astounding and while I don't think faith is the only issue, God still is a rewarder of people who seek Him First and in faith. All I know is that I have had much greater success praying for people when I leave the US. It's the same me, same prayer, same Jesus but different results. Only difference I can see is different people and different attitudes about it all. I don't know. Very confusing sometimes especially when the needs are the same in both places. It frustrates me to no end. Acts-celerater
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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
Only difference I can see is different people and different attitudes about it all.


Are healings and miracles an end in themselves or a means to confirm the gospel?
After Jesus healed the man born blind and then claimed to be doing the work of his Father, the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Yet Jesus said to them, (John 10:37-38)
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


The healings Jesus performed weren't just for the individual healed; they were to show that Jesus was the Son of God.


When an imprisoned John the Baptist asked if Jesus was really the One, look at the response: (Matthew 11:3-5)
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
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10/8/17 8:17 am


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Post Cojak
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
Only difference I can see is different people and different attitudes about it all.


Are healings and miracles an end in themselves or a means to confirm the gospel?
After Jesus healed the man born blind and then claimed to be doing the work of his Father, the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Yet Jesus said to them, (John 10:37-38)
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.


The healings Jesus performed weren't just for the individual healed; they were to show that Jesus was the Son of God.


When an imprisoned John the Baptist asked if Jesus was really the One, look at the response: (Matthew 11:3-5)
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

SWEET! Cool
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Post Miracles serve at least a Dual purpose brotherjames
Primarily Bonnie is correct in that miracles serve to either confirm the preached Word

Mark 16: 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

or open a door for the Word to be proclaimed. Miracles also show the supernatural God exists. And, also the other reason is to bless the recipient. Jesus looked with compassion upon the people. He cared about their suffering and He still does.

Luke 7: 12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.

13 And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not.
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Aaron,

Would it be better for you WOFFERS to just say - yes God always heals when you have enough faith - but that amount of faith doesn't exist today?

Isn't that what you are saying?

Of course there are those that have been unusually blessed with health - and they credit that to their superior faith - but you are saying that for all the people that actually do get sick - the rate of healing of Christians that get prayed for = the rate of healing for athiests.

I haven't seen a study like that - the ones I have seen show that to not be true...although it in no way approaches 100% healing.
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Post NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron,

Would it be better for you WOFFERS to just say - yes God always heals when you have enough faith - but that amount of faith doesn't exist today?

Isn't that what you are saying?

Of course there are those that have been unusually blessed with health - and they credit that to their superior faith - but you are saying that for all the people that actually do get sick - the rate of healing of Christians that get prayed for = the rate of healing for athiests.

I haven't seen a study like that - the ones I have seen show that to not be true...although it in no way approaches 100% healing.


I wouldn't know what WOFfers say...I'm not a WOFfer.

I have seen some studies--TRIPLE blind ones--where even animals were prayed for. Sometimes prayers were more effective...sometimes LESS effective than any other method (including doing nothing). Go figure.
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Post Nature Boy Florida
I thought you believed that if you had enough faith - you would have everything you asked? Is that not correct?
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Post NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
I thought you believed that if you had enough faith - you would have everything you asked? Is that not correct?


That IS what I believe.

But at the same time, I don't believe you can have faith for something that is contrary to God's will. I believe too many folks, however, claim that things are not God's will, when instead it is a matter of insufficient faith.

It may seem like six of one, half-dozen of another, but I think that there are many things we do not receive, NOT because God is not willing, but because we do not have sufficient faith. No wonder Jesus at times asked "Where is your faith?" or said, "Oh, ye of little faith."
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Post Re: NBF... Nature Boy Florida
Aaron Scott wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
I thought you believed that if you had enough faith - you would have everything you asked? Is that not correct?


That IS what I believe.

But at the same time, I don't believe you can have faith for something that is contrary to God's will. I believe too many folks, however, claim that things are not God's will, when instead it is a matter of insufficient faith.

It may seem like six of one, half-dozen of another, but I think that there are many things we do not receive, NOT because God is not willing, but because we do not have sufficient faith. No wonder Jesus at times asked "Where is your faith?" or said, "Oh, ye of little faith."


So - that really is the word of faith belief, right - since God has promised to always heal - you never have to worry if that is his will, right?
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Post Re: NBF... Aaron Scott
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
I thought you believed that if you had enough faith - you would have everything you asked? Is that not correct?


That IS what I believe.

But at the same time, I don't believe you can have faith for something that is contrary to God's will. I believe too many folks, however, claim that things are not God's will, when instead it is a matter of insufficient faith.

It may seem like six of one, half-dozen of another, but I think that there are many things we do not receive, NOT because God is not willing, but because we do not have sufficient faith. No wonder Jesus at times asked "Where is your faith?" or said, "Oh, ye of little faith."


So - that really is the word of faith belief, right - since God has promised to always heal - you never have to worry if that is his will, right?


Well, that is why I started this thread. I DO believe it is always God's will to heal. I could be wrong. Or, I could be right, but simply don't have sufficient faith to see it happen.

Consider, as I have said many times here, that not a single person that came to Jesus failed to be healed (or have a request for healing fulfilled). Were all of those people some sort of super-saints that got an automatic "YES" from God? I cannot at all believe that. I believe that just about every stripe of person--from godly to ungodly (demon possessed even)--they were all healed or delivered.

Was that something ONLY for Jesus? Or is that something that we, too, could see, if only we had the faith? It seems Jesus often took His disciples to task for not having sufficient faith. It seems He was implying that if only they had had faith, they, too, could have done what He had done.

Possible?
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Post Carolyn Smith
God still heals today, but there are several factors that can influence healing. First, we must have faith that it can happen. The Word tells us He is our healer. And the accounts in the NT do tell us that Jesus healed ALL. But He was Jesus! Even though the Word says "Greater works than these shall ye do..." But not many of us do...

I believe what's been said here re: our having readily available medical access causes us to rely less on God. As Cojak said, 50 years ago people didn't have the $ to run to the dr. all the time. People have more faith in their doctors now than they do in God.

I think our food choices also can influence whether we are healed or not.

Most people I know and hear of that see healing occur in their ministries are also given to fasting and prayer. I believe this can make a big difference in seeing miracles happen.

I don't believe in a demon behind every door, but I do believe some sickness is caused because of demonic influence. If this is true, it must be dealt with in the spiritual realm for healing to occur. Perry Stone's dad testified that a younger brother was sick, and the Lord showed him the boy was being tormented by an evil spirit. His parents were unsaved at the time, and when his dad (Fred) came around, he would pray for the boy & he would get better. But when he would leave, the tormenting spirit would return. The Lord told him to tell his parents that if they would turn their lives over to the Lord, He would heal the child, but they did not. The younger brother eventually died at a young age, and if I'm remembering correctly, he said the reason the Lord showed him he died so the child would not continue to be tormented.

As has also been mentioned, what is the purpose of a miracle? Most notably, to point people to Jesus or to confirm the Word spoken.

Madelyn Murray O'Hare's son was healed of some major problem with his leg when he was an agnostic. Totally healed by the power of God to show forth His power. He got saved and became a minister because of the miracle that occurred in his life.

When my husband had kidney disease (before the transplant 4 years ago), he became very ill once because his kidneys totally shut down and the docs were talking about starting him on dialysis (which he had not had at this point in time.) His kidneys had not worked in about 36 hours, but my pastor came to see him, laid hands on him, and prayed the prayer of faith. About an hour later, his kidneys started working again. The docs had no explanation for it, but we knew the Lord had healed him miraculously. Some might say, why didn't He heal him completely of the kidney disease? My answer is...I don't know. He is God and He can do things however He wants to. That does not take away from the fact that the Lord healed him of that circumstance that was quickly becoming a dire need.

When my husband was put on dialysis some time later, I was very discouraged because I had been believing for healing for years. God gave me a word many years ago that "this sickness is not unto death, but unto the glory of God." I stood on that word for over 20 years, and I didn't understand it. But I finally decided that God could heal him any way He pleased! A total miracle or a transplant - both would bring healing.

John went through 4 1/2 years of dialysis, and he was in very bad shape the last year. I began to doubt - not really God's word, but in my ability to discern what He had spoken to me. I KNEW what God had said and when everything else failed, I returned to what He had said and continued to pray and remind the Lord of what He had said.

John had a kidney transplant 4 years ago, and the kidney started working as soon as they did the surgery. He still has health problems, but the kidney is in great shape. It was done with medical intervention, but it is still a miracle to me. If he had not received the kidney, I have no doubt he would no longer be here. Sometimes God doesn't deliver us FROM the problem, He delivers us THROUGH it. And I believe He has gotten glory from all that we have been through in this process as we have continued to pray and believe and look to Him for answers.

I read once that sometimes God heals us and sometimes He heals the circumstances. Such as with Joni Eareckson Tada - would God have gotten more glory from a physical healing or through her inspirational life that has encouraged millions? Sometimes God heals temporarily - does that make the healing any less miraculous?

There are also gifts of the Spirit - working of miracles, the gift of faith, the gift of healing. These are available to those filled with the Spirit - but it is up to God who He uses with these gifts. Some people seem to operate in them more than others.

I know some of you don't like Benny Hinn (and I haven't watched him in years) but I attended a few services of his, and the thing that struck me is that the services had an atmosphere of two things - worship and faith. Every segment of the service pointed back to worship. Whether it was a testimony, offering, preaching - whatever - the focus went right back to worship through song in between each segment. The focus was pointed back to worshiping the Lord and creating an environment of worship and faith. And when those things happen, miracles happen. People were often healed before they ever even got in the meetings because THEY BELIEVED! They believed if they could get to that service, they would be healed. They had seen others healed, and their faith was that if they got there, God would touch them too. We come to church most of the time expecting NOTHING...and that's what we get.

I also heard an Oral Roberts story in which it was said that when Oral went to pray for people - such as the ones in the tent that were not brought before the audience, he looked for someone who was showing signs of having faith. There was one instance where a young woman couldn't move anything but her eyes, but he sensed she was ready to be healed. He told her to do what she could do, and she frantically began to move her eyes back and forth. Her mother began to state reasons she couldn't be healed, and he had her removed from the tent. (LOL) I don't remember all the details except this young woman was totally healed by the power of God and got up and ran around the tent. She had the faith to believe God could do anything - and He did! Sometimes the faith comes from the preacher or someone else there, and sometimes it comes from the person being prayed for. But we must have faith in God (not faith in faith) to see miracles happen.

One more story...Oral Roberts also told about a man who worked for him for many years that had a heart attack and was not doing well. The doctors didn't really expect him to make it. The man's daughter requested that Oral come and pray for him. Oral Roberts came to the hospital and prayed kind of an ordinary prayer over him. His daughter got up and said, "No, Brother Roberts, we need a TENT prayer! We don't have time for you to pray a prayer that doesn't have any power." So Oral Roberts prayed for the man again, this time with power and unction, and the man was healed by the power of God. There is a total difference in an unction to pray and a prayer of agreement. There is power attached when a person has an unction to pray, and things happen when believers pray with an unction of the Holy Spirit.

OK, more than you asked for. Smile My two cents, for what it's worth.
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Post Carolyn--outstanding. Aaron Scott
That was a wonderful testimony and description of how we should proceed, I believe. Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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Post Re: Carolyn--outstanding. Carolyn Smith
Aaron Scott wrote:
That was a wonderful testimony and description of how we should proceed, I believe.


Thanks
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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10/10/17 5:58 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Agreed Carolyn.

Thank you.
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10/10/17 7:48 am


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