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 Re: This is very concerning |
Cojak |
| bonnie knox wrote: | This has been hinted at before on this board, and I find it very concerning. Obviously, it is hard for those of us reading to know exactly how things happened, but if it happened as suggested here, there are problems that haven't been dealt with.
It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it's wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims.
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jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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10/10/17 9:27 pm
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| Re: This is very concerning |
wayne |
| bonnie knox wrote: | This has been hinted at before on this board, and I find it very concerning. Obviously, it is hard for those of us reading to know exactly how things happened, but if it happened as suggested here, there are problems that haven't been dealt with.
It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it's wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims.
| Quote: | | I remember one incident where an overseer said I only deal with lead pastors. Well later on an associate in his state came forward to the state office that his very “connected” lead Pastor and some elders was in involved a child abuse cover up and had violated the states child abuse reporting laws. This guy was being harassed by the perps family who was on the pastors council. The overseer would not even meet with him. The response of staff at that office was how much money do you have saved up you will lose your job for coming forward and to just leave “unharmed.” In less then a week that overseer or someone the overseer alerted told his lead Pastor that the guy came forward with concerns and they immediately fired him. They did nothing to the lead Pastor and since the incident officials from Cleveland who know full well what has happened has spoken at the church. Unofficial response is nothing is going to happen unless police get involved. The Associate was even denied access to a trial board by cleveland response was aren’t going on a “witchhunt” even with member witnesses and a half the elders board knows and was told the person who committed the crime was senial and the victims family was not pressing charges. |
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Viva Cleve Vegas, "I remember 1 incident"? When did this happen? Was it recent? Do you have first hand knowledge of this? Did you contact the authorities regarding this abuse? If this associate pastor was truly an employee of the church, government employment rules were broken. Did this associate pastor go to the authorites?
Bonnie,
Do you have first hand knowledge of these incidents? With out facts you are attaching this to other supposed incidents in the CoG. Great way to build on the gossip. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/11/17 7:38 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | Bonnie,
Do you have first hand knowledge of these incidents? With out facts you are attaching this to other supposed incidents in the CoG. Great way to build on the gossip. |
I am not attaching this to other "supposed" incidents in the COG.
I am talking about child abuse in the church, and not just the COG. Are you aware that the number one reason churches are sued is over child sexual abuse? (And I'm not saying this alleged abuse was sexual abuse, but I'm saying cover ups are very common.)
RE-READ what I have written!! I believe I've worded things in a wise and discreet way. And I'm also aware that the word "gossip" is quite often employed to suppress uncovering the truth about abuse.
If we become more concerned about image/brand/reputation than victims, we have a problem. |
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Posts: 14803
10/11/17 8:40 am
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| Is it truth? |
wayne |
"And I'm also aware that the word "gossip" is quite often employed to suppress uncovering the truth about abuse." I could care less about someone's reputation and I am not trying to suppress anything. If it is fact, you have proof then take it to the authorities.
"It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it's wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims" This is an accusatory statement and lumps all churches together.
What are the actual numbers on this statement? "Are you aware that the number one reason churches are sued is over child sexual abuse?"
Sounds to me like you are using raw data to justify your comments. Do you have facts, do you have first hand knowledge on this rumor? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/11/17 12:05 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Do you want to know the truth about the situation? For me, that's the bottom line. Let the chips fall where they may. |
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Posts: 14803
10/11/17 1:06 pm
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Cojak |
This subject of child abuse was brought up months or a year ago. My memory says it was an associate pastor who KNEW of the abuse and wanted to get something done about it and was in affect, black balled. Or that is how I read it. No names, state, or locations were discussed, to my recollection.
I think the fact is , if Cleveland owns the property they are 'responsible' in the end as the catholic church was (is). That is the implication given in the original post about this situation. I could be wrong.
But like Bonnie if something that 'SICK' happens in MY HOME church, I want the chips to fall where the guilt is found, and I want it done by civil authorities because no churchman/woman is above the law of abuse of a child. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
10/11/17 11:57 pm
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| In regards to child abuse, I echo Cojak .. |
Mat |
| Cojak wrote: | This subject of child abuse was brought up months or a year ago. My memory says it was an associate pastor who KNEW of the abuse and wanted to get something done about it and was in affect, black balled. Or that is how I read it. No names, state, or locations were discussed, to my recollection.
I think the fact is , if Cleveland owns the property they are 'responsible' in the end as the catholic church was (is). That is the implication given in the original post about this situation. I could be wrong.
But like Bonnie if something that 'SICK' happens in MY HOME church, I want the chips to fall where the guilt is found, and I want it done by civil authorities because no churchman/woman is above the law of abuse of a child. |
After twenty plus years as Senior Pastor of churches with licensed daycare/preschool ministries (business), when it comes to child abuse, calling the overseer is the last on the list. First, and always, a minister, childcare worker, teacher, etc, is mandated to call the authorities - Child Protective Services or the police. Failure to so makes you as guilty as those you accuse of "covering-up" said abuse. From key leadership, to large donors, to church staff and especially lead pastors and overseers, any delay in reporting child abuse, especially of a sexual nature, is a crime.
If a staff member goes to the overseer instead of the authorities with allegations against the senior pastor, one must conclude the staff member has not been properly trained and may not be qualified to be on church staff. Or, in taking it to the overseer first, they are playing church politics instead of caring for the welfare of the the child. God can always raise up another Senior Pastor or State Overseer if they should fail to follow the law and try to manage (cover-up) child abuse. They have written their own resignation and by not following the law.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
10/12/17 7:03 am
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| Re: In regards to child abuse, I echo Cojak .. |
wayne |
| Mat wrote: | | Cojak wrote: | This subject of child abuse was brought up months or a year ago. My memory says it was an associate pastor who KNEW of the abuse and wanted to get something done about it and was in affect, black balled. Or that is how I read it. No names, state, or locations were discussed, to my recollection.
I think the fact is , if Cleveland owns the property they are 'responsible' in the end as the catholic church was (is). That is the implication given in the original post about this situation. I could be wrong.
But like Bonnie if something that 'SICK' happens in MY HOME church, I want the chips to fall where the guilt is found, and I want it done by civil authorities because no churchman/woman is above the law of abuse of a child. |
After twenty plus years as Senior Pastor of churches with licensed daycare/preschool ministries (business), when it comes to child abuse, calling the overseer is the last on the list. First, and always, a minister, childcare worker, teacher, etc, is mandated to call the authorities - Child Protective Services or the police. Failure to so makes you as guilty as those you accuse of "covering-up" said abuse. From key leadership, to large donors, to church staff and especially lead pastors and overseers, any delay in reporting child abuse, especially of a sexual nature, is a crime.
If a staff member goes to the overseer instead of the authorities with allegations against the senior pastor, one must conclude the staff member has not been properly trained and may not be qualified to be on church staff. Or, in taking it to the overseer first, they are playing church politics instead of caring for the welfare of the the child. God can always raise up another Senior Pastor or State Overseer if they should fail to follow the law and try to manage (cover-up) child abuse. They have written their own resignation and by not following the law.
Mat |
This is the law. I've had to deal with this in the past and believe me, I did not call the overseer first - I called the police first and then called the overseer just to keep him in the loop. The authorities did what they had to do without any interference from me.
If you know facts about abuse and you do not report it, you are in trouble if the authorities find out.
To assume or insinuate that all or other churches/church leadership cover up things like this is simply wrong.
How is church building ownership tied to child abuse? What a leap.  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/12/17 1:33 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Do you want to know the truth about the situation? To me that's the bottom line. Let the chips fall where they may. |
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Posts: 14803
10/12/17 3:35 pm
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| Bonnie |
wayne |
If this matter is being dealt with by the proper authorities and all measures have been taken to care for those harmed - that's all that matters.
If this has not been resolved and you have facts, take it to the proper authorities and have them look into it. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/13/17 7:58 am
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viva_cleve_vegas |
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Last edited by viva_cleve_vegas on 3/26/18 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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10/13/17 6:38 pm
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Cojak |
One doesn't have to always look for the sinister. If the problem wastaken car of to all the satisfaction of all the injured parties, in my opinion it is better that no authorities be involved. If the abuse was more involved such as indecent personal contact, then authorities should be involved. I think a wise pastor could decide this.
I have a jaundiced view from two close personal cases. One where an adult divorced man touched 'in appropriately' a neighbors 17 yr old daughter in a swimming pool. He agreed immediately he was guilty and did not get an attorney. Even thought the girl told authorities later she had over blown the incident, the man had to register and jump thru the same hoops as the child molester who rapes a 2 yr old.
The other case a son of a friend has spent 8 months in jail in Gaston Co. awaiting trial for statutory rape. He swears he did not do this. There are no witnesses of course, no evidence other than the girls word. He declared he would never take a plea deal, but he did last week. He says he cannot spend more time in jail with this over his head, it is driving him crazy h is 20 yrs old' He still declares he never had sex with the girl. THE CHILD ABUSE, SEX OFFENDER LAWS ARE SCARY. They do not define to neighbors the 'nature of a crime' Just that the person is a sex offender. Being close to this type of charge is SCARY, many suicides are involved in trying to comply with the law. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
10/15/17 11:19 pm
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wayne |
| viva_cleve_vegas wrote: | | From what I understand. |
Not first hand knowledge. Gossip. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/16/17 7:49 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | They do not define to neighbors the 'nature of a crime' Just that the person is a sex offender. |
Actually, they do to an extent. We have had registered sex offenders in our neighborhood, one living as close as next door. The age of the victim was listed on the registry list. On the NC registry, the charge and statute are listed whether it's sexual battery, child pornography, indecent liberty with minor, etc.
The offender that lived next door let me know he was on parole (and he didn't specify what kind of crime at all) for something "not that bad." I guess "not that bad" is relative -- a 49 year-old married man having sex with a 14 year old. |
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Posts: 14803
10/16/17 8:27 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | From what I understand contact was made to state office after the employee made appropriate contact to authorities. He did so out of rightful fear of retaliation by the churches staff and family members of the accused. What I understand was the staff of the church this happened at tried to negotiate the end of thier lease with his land lord directly without letting him know he was gone. |
Was the lease part of the employee's compensation?
What do you feel the denomination should do to rectify the injustice to the employee? |
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Posts: 14803
10/16/17 8:34 am
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bonnie knox |
Wayne, the phrase "from what I understand" does not necessarily mean it is not first hand knowledge. The key is that "viva_cleve_vegas" is a pen name. There could be various reasons for that, and I know some people will dismiss any accusation coming from an anonymous source, and I can appreciate that when someone puts his or her actual name on an accusation, there is more credibility that comes with a person sticking out his or her neck.
However, since the person making the accusation hasn't named anyone either, it's hard to imagine the motivation is "gossip."
| wayne wrote: | | viva_cleve_vegas wrote: | | From what I understand. |
Not first hand knowledge. Gossip. |
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Posts: 14803
10/16/17 8:49 am
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viva_cleve_vegas |
| ...... |
New Member
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10/16/17 10:30 am
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