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cogcia

Property Control makes Slaves

Friendly Face Posts: 122 **10/2/17 11:11 pm**

I was in a meeting today with 9 pastors all of main stream denominations. 3 different denominations represented. The conversation turned to the lack of effectiveness of their denominations. The question was ask why do we remain in our denomination. Resoundingly the pastors said the properties held them to the denomination. 7 of the 9 pastors said if they would not lose their building they would leave their denomination today. The oldest pastor said he had been a slave for the last 17 years to the UMC because his denomination controled thier assets that his members had paid for. Literally in tears he said I'm to old to do what is best for my church. Has property control helped the sinking Ship of denominations stay a float? If denominations said to the local churches do what ever your church voted to do would it change denominations as we know them? As 1 of the 2 that did not voice that I would leave if I could, it really has caused me ask myself are we loyal in the COG for the right reasons or for the wrong reason?

wayne

Am I missing something?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **10/3/17 7:24 am**

Our church just went through the process of purchasing our building. The Church of God did not underwrite us at all. In fact, my name and the name of several families are listed on the loan and all documents listed with the city, county and state. The only place the CoG is listed is if the MISSION Church of God goes down to nothing and their is no one to take on the liability of the property. Truly, this building is controlled by me and the trustees and this information has been verified by our attorney.

As far as feeling like a slave to the denomination, there are times when I wish the CoG was more involved in some of the operations of our churches. Probably, one of my biggest complaints is that the CoG is too slow in helping out some of our churches.

Sounds to me like this is a lose lose for denominations. They help it's bad, they don't help it's bad.....

Quiet Wyatt

Re: Property Control makes Slaves

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **10/3/17 9:11 am**

Cojak

Re: Property Control makes Slaves

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24275 **10/3/17 9:35 am**

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **10/3/17 10:00 am**

WELL!

What do you know? Cool

_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Aaron Scott

Consider the benefits of denominational leadership....

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/3/17 11:26 am**

First, when I heard that some of the pastors were saying they would leave the denomination today if the denomination didn't own their property, I realized that these men have already left in their heart. Was the denomination treating them badly? Do they disagree with church doctrine? On an on. I'm guessing that the REAL reason is almost certainly a less worthy reason....

Here is a scenario.... An independent church that hundreds of people attend goes off the rails doctrinally. Too bad. Either leave or shut up. Nothing you can do unless you have some sort of controlling interest in the church.

Another one.... The pastor of an independent church decides that he wants to have a mistress. The board of trustees are beholden to him and perhaps even agree with him. Either leave or shut up.

But in the Church of God you make a phone call to the regional or administrative bishop. Somebody is going to show up to see if there is a real issue. If there is, the Church of God has the legal authority to do what needs to be done.

I do believe that a church that pays for the property should own the property. HOWEVER, I also believe that there should be a couple of caveats that permit the Church of God to have LEGAL authority over a local church:

1) Moral Failure.

2) Doctrinal Infidelity

3) (?) Imminent financial ruin.

4) Failure to report and/or maintain obligations to the Church of God.
In all other cases, let the church do as they will.

In all other cases, let the church do as they wish. Build. Borrow. Etc. But if any of these triggers are pulled, the Church of God should have the authority to come in and do what needs to be done per the Minutes.

But guess what? THAT HAS NEVER BEEN WHAT IT IS ABOUT, HAS IT? The folks who want out of the Church of God and bemoan denominational leadership are very likely not to agree to even these exceptions. Why? Because they don't want the Church of God AT ALL (except, perhaps, for the connections it provides to them).

A big deal is that some pastors see a lot of money going to headquarters that they feel could be put to better use in the local church. Well, DUH! Of course we could do more things with 10% extra. But that is not what it's about! That 10% goes to do things at a much bigger level that what a local church can do.

Consider that if we all just skipped sending any money to the Church of God to help with Hurricane Harvey...and just found a church to send the money directly to. Nothing particular is wrong with that--I imagine most of us have done such things. But at the same time consider that the church with the best social media outreach, the church that is best known, the pastor that has the most connections...is likely to be the one that gets the lion's share of the monies sent. While some faithful but small church...is left out.

The denomination isn't perfect by a long shot. But far more than I fear the denomination, I fear those pastors that have "divorce" in their hearts...almost always because of MONEY.

Yes, there might be some other reasons here and there. But it often comes down to who has and controls the money.

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **10/3/17 2:15 pm**

Let's say you pastor an independent (Congregational governed) church.

You have a Church Constitution that protects the pastor and the members.

You have a Church Constitution that clearly defines your doctrinal positions.

The Church Conference posses the power to fire your sorry but if you go wacko.

It's called due process.

Since 1989 that's how we roll. Cool

_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Aaron Scott

Sheepdogandy...

Aaron Scott · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **10/3/17 3:16 pm**

I wouldn't doubt that Harvester/Earl Paulk, Jr. had "safeguards" in place. But here is the problem....

While we know that the church structure you mention CAN work and often DOES work, its weakness can be that is often executed by people VERY CLOSE to the issue (i.e., right in the same church). It might be a blood brother or sister to the pastor...close friends...etc.

Now, can that same thing happen in a denomination? Of course. But it is much less likely, I think, due to that overseer, or executives almost always being well-removed from the issue. This gives them a vantage point and an authority that would (if it had been reported) almost certainly stopped the Paulk fiasco.

An persuasive pastor might be able to swing the vote his way in an independent church. But in the Church of God (at least in theory!), he would not be able to have a vote to stop the executives from removing him (if that was needed). About the best that he could do would be to leave the church, take a big group with him, and start another church.

Sheepdogandy, if I may ask, what were the specific causes that caused your church to leave the Church of God?

Change Agent

Property Control

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **10/3/17 3:40 pm**

Don't under stand why Wayne in above post is in a COG where the Denomination does not own the property. I did not know that option was available in the COG. Will it have to be deeded to the COG if it is paid off?

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24275 **10/3/17 9:06 pm**

My understanding (from my dad who was a pioneer Pastor in the COG, that there has always been one or two churches in ever state who 'owned their church'. Nealsville, NC, a small mountain church, is one. The members have always owned the church. They are handled by the overseer with different rules (not written of course) but when the men of the church decide they need a change of pastors, it was always done. I am very familiar with the families there and they are absolutely wonderful folk, but they know they have a hand up on their sister churches on the district.

Denominational or independent the church lives or dies on the life of a faithful man of integrity who is a true man of God.

The independent churches I have known are good churches. I know two exceptions, Paulk was mentioned, then my cousin whom I will not name was the other. Both were COG and BOTH were wolves in sheeps clothing.

We can all name COG preachers who ruined good churches. I have no doubt some overseers have 'forced good men out', but in all my time in the COG as a pastor and a pew sitter, I have never been lied to or mislead by overseers and leadership. Thank God. really, THANK GOD.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

brotherjames

Well, in the AG we own our own property

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **10/3/17 9:20 pm**

And are in "fellowship" with tbe denomination. We subscrjbe to our tenets of faith, participate in and support our ministries, outreaches, benevolence and missions And are accountable for doctrine, finances and govt. If tbe church falls below 20 voting members the AG can step in to help the church until it again is strong enough to be on its own. But those churches above 20 voting members are sovereign in our local govt. Call our own pastors, elect our official boards of deacons/trustees And hold title to property, land and buildings as well as make mortgages etc. I call it the best of both worlds. Independent churches aren't accountable and some denominations make you a slave to their property. The AG model is imperfect but better tban most others imho.

sheepdogandy

Re: Sheepdogandy...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **10/4/17 8:21 am**

"Sheepdogandy, if I may ask, what were the specific causes that caused your church to leave the Church of God?"

Quite literally a lunatic state overseer.

He was called in by our pastor to address complaints.

His solution was to remove most of the duly elected Church officers and replace them without any due process.

He removed one lady who had taught the Ladies Sunday School class for forty years.

She had absolutely nothing to do with the situation.

Some of the replacements did not even attend our Church must less were members.

His demeanor was extremely brash and downright rude to say the least.

He informed us in no uncertain terms that the Church belonged to him and he would do whatever he pleased with it.

The members who paid the bills would have no say.

So, we left.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

Nature Boy Florida

Re: Well, in the AG we own our own property

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **10/4/17 4:46 pm**

JimmieDavis

Friendly Face Posts: 219 **10/4/17 5:19 pm**

Sounds like sour grapes. If a man works his whole life, prays, preaches truth grows a great church then has a moral failure, youn seriously think it's a good idea to kick him out, take his church, pass it to the state overseers buddy and call that spiritual discipline. You're crazy.

Cojak

Re: Sheepdogandy...

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24275 **10/4/17 10:38 pm**

sheepdogandy

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 7298 **10/5/17 8:02 am**

Of the four overseers I experienced only one possessed the integrity to hold the office.

J. Frank Culpepper, taught me in one evening everything I needed to know to do what I do now.

Pastor a Congregation.

Of the other three.

One lied, another didn't care and the last was a lunatic. imho

God did have a purpose in allowing the events that led to our leaving Cleveland.

Pentecost is not fading away.

Our recent Youth Conference proved that.
_________________
Charles A. Hutchins
Senior Pastor SPWC
Congregational Church of God

www.spwc.church

cogcia

Properties hold us

Friendly Face Posts: 122 **10/8/17 3:26 pm**

So the blessing of the denomination holding control over the property is
When you have a crazy overseer you still have to stay. Lol
My question is more about should the local church that paid the mortgage, replaced the roof and mowed the grass control the property. Or should an AB that is going to pass through your state hoping for a promotion control it. Sorry for the slight sarcasm. As much as I Respect the office, I am not crazy enough to believe an AB Cares more about our church, our building and our ministry as we do. I Love our denomination, but hate some things about it. I hate that you can’t express your concern without being told why don’t you just leave the denomination. I hate it that, that mentality is costing us our Sons. We can win the argument, but lose the fight. We may be content with an old school mentality and even spiritualize it, but it is not a strength in attracting planters or others to join us.

roughridercog

A retired pastors perspective

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **10/8/17 5:44 pm**

If I was going to start a work, I would rent a facility until the cows come home. If we needed our own building I would do it under the umbrella of a separate nonprofit organization and let the church rent it from that.

Just my two cents from my rocking chair. Very Happy

_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

viva_cleve_vegas

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viva_cleve_vegas · New Member Posts: 10 **10/9/17 11:19 pm**

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bonnie knox

This is very concerning

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **10/10/17 8:20 am**

This has been hinted at before on this board, and I find it very concerning. Obviously, it is hard for those of us reading to know exactly how things happened, but if it happened as suggested here, there are problems that haven't been dealt with.
It is certainly not unheard of for churches to try to cover up abuse. It happens frequently, and it's wrong. That situation fails to protect potential future victims.