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 Why Not? |
renewal |
I have been reading this topic for some time...
So I have a suggestion...For those who believe it is ok to drink than prove it to be true...
Have a beer bust next Sunday in your church after service..Why not? If it is good to drink than drink everywhere? Why not?
But if you cannot do what was just suggested Why not?
It is all the way or it is not at all...while you are at it, invite the Holy Spirit to be in your midst. Why not? If it is ok to drink one should be able to invite the Lord into the house..
Why not? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
9/19/17 5:09 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
The COG based their holiness standards on what they learned from the Method-ists - where living a Christian life is better accomplished by following a method. |
Brother...
I have watched you for years defend people on this forum against legalistic individuals who would seek to choke the joy out of our faith over such issues as clothing and attire...and musical styles, preaching styles, etc. My point in mentioning that is that legalism by any other definition is most certainly a "method" or system of thought.
The article presented by the polity committee does indeed (as you said) represent a "method" or a system of thought. I would ask you rhetorically if every method was equally legitimate just because it was a "method," but I am confident of your answer to that question. I appreciate methods and systems of thought and paths to righteousness...but where I get lost on this issue is when people speak definitively concerning scripture where it appears scripture itself does not speak definitively. Again - this kind of thing has hurt the church for centuries.
You and I know each other...you know of my respect for you.
That has not changed.
But as with Dr Arrington - I guess so it is with you, I humbly, yet passionately disagree.
Nothing but love for you brother... |
No offense taken.
And thank you for letting me clarify why this is different than other "legalistic" issues.
Wearing a wedding ring, or pants, or long hair, short hair, tattoos, etc... those things don't really affect anyone else...or your self really.
Not so with alcohol.
Feel free to pull up the statistics on alcohol related deaths, abuse, and sexuality - compare it to tattoo related deaths, abuse, etc...
Are they remotely equivalent?
Alcohol is in a class of items that Christians should abstain from in America. Romans indicates that we shouldn't cause other folks to stumble. I believe alcoholic beverages in America rises to that level of stumbling block BECAUSE it can affect us AND OTHERS negatively - and when it affects us negatively - the damage is often PERMANENT.
How many jobs lost, marriages ruined, deadly auto accidents, livers damaged does it take for a denomination to take a stand against an item that can creep up on many? Are we so weak a people that we don't want to take a stand against anything that is destroying us? Are we that timid anymore?
Sure (I know this isn't you Tom) - there are those of you that have a beer and a glass of wine and never have a problem with it - that is what you have done for the last 40 years and you handled it easily. You have done it for 40 years and never became enslaved by it. I get it. And if you lived on an island by yourself - I would agree it is not a sin to drink your fill of anything you want.
But are there any family members that admire your liberty - and are not doing as well with it? Can everyone limit themselves as you have - or is this item in a separate class - where often folks can't limit themselves?
Bottomline:
Has culture and the world changed in 2000 years and should scripture be interpreted in light of today's culture? I say yes. (as with women being granted leadership in the church - but that is another thread)
Should Christians be able to use God given intelligence and point out things that are destroying folks all around us? I say yes.
Are there things that Christians ought to give up for the good of all the Christians and unbelievers around us who watch how we live? I say yes there are.
And alcoholic beverages are on that list.
I say as leaders, as a denomination, we ought to share those things with new Christians and show them a better way...which is why I am in total agreement on this.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
9/19/17 5:27 pm
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| Re: Why Not? |
Dave Dorsey |
| renewal wrote: | I have been reading this topic for some time...
So I have a suggestion...For those who believe it is ok to drink than prove it to be true...
Have a beer bust next Sunday in your church after service..Why not? If it is good to drink than drink everywhere? Why not?
But if you cannot do what was just suggested Why not?
It is all the way or it is not at all...while you are at it, invite the Holy Spirit to be in your midst. Why not? If it is ok to drink one should be able to invite the Lord into the house..
Why not? |
The Reformation happened in large part as a result of theological conversations held at pubs. I think it's safe to say the Holy Spirit was involved in those conversations! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
9/19/17 7:38 pm
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Cojak |
Someone said check the statistics.
It ain't good for the family or you to die of obesity or in a car. Killed by stupidity or drunk is still dead. I'm agin both, but you are two or three times more likely to be killed by stupid than drunk. Laws and teaching don't seem to stop either. To have your family killed either way is terrible.
An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity, some folk say over eating ain't as bad as drinking.
I mean there are statistics to support about any position. Just sayin'
 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
9/19/17 8:19 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| Cojak wrote: | Someone said check the statistics.
It ain't good for the family or you to die of obesity or in a car. Killed by stupidity or drunk is still dead. I'm agin both, but you are two or three times more likely to be killed by stupid than drunk. Laws and teaching don't seem to stop either. To have your family killed either way is terrible.
An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity, some folk say over eating ain't as bad as drinking.
I mean there are statistics to support about any position. Just sayin'
|
Agreed cojak - you can add that to the list if you want. There is scriptural support for it.
But - I don't think its at the same level - I think alcohol is in its on special category - because if you eat too much - it usually doesn't have any affect on me - unless I am at the same table and get nothing to eat.
However, you drink too much, your car might kill me on the way home - or someone else.
Wisdom on today's perils are what I am advocating - and we ought to share that. Things are different today - drinking wine does not have the same ramifications today as drinking it 2000 years ago. It's a lot worse. Lots more issues with it today than back then.
How about how to treat your slave? Shouldn't we teach that subject a little different today than 2000 years ago?
Things are different today than 2000 years ago. We should study the scriptures and teach our disciples practical commitments that are needed for today. Paul dishes out lots of practical commitments for their day to Timothy. We need to do the same. Not frivolous stuff that doesn't truly affect anyone - but the necessary evils of our day.
Paul would probably be drummed off of Acts for his legalistic interpretation about choosing associates. "From such turn away...shun". Come on - how are those guys going to get the gospel if we turn away from them?
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
9/20/17 7:52 am
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Cojak |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | ...
Wisdom on today's perils are what I am advocating - and we ought to share that. Things are different today - drinking wine does not have the same ramifications today as drinking it 2000 years ago. It's a lot worse. Lots more issues with it today than back then.
'''
Things are different today than 2000 years ago. We should study the scriptures and teach our disciples practical commitments that are needed for today. Paul dishes out lots of practical commitments for their day to Timothy. We need to do the same. Not frivolous stuff that doesn't truly affect anyone - but the necessary evils of our day.
Paul would probably be drummed off of Acts for his legalistic interpretation about choosing associates. "From such turn away...shun". Come on - how are those guys going to get the gospel if we turn away from them? |
I agree with your comment and the spirit of it, but in my opinion it is wrong to TEACH AS FACT that the Bible teaches abstinence.
Just a note on obesity. When someone in the family must take care of an obese person who is bed fast, it can ruin the health and even kill a family member. (Been there, done that). Hopefully in this day folks can afford home health care 24/7.
I talked to a fellow PK whose dad was a BIG preacher. They were caring for him as we were my mom. in the course of the conversation I said, "At least he still has his mind."
She said, "Jack, he is as crazy as a bed-bug and it is killing mama, and the rest of us, to roll, bath and clean him." 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
9/20/17 9:50 am
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Tom Sterbens |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: |
....thank you for letting me clarify why this is different than other "legalistic" issues.
Wearing a wedding ring, or pants, or long hair, short hair, tattoos, etc... those things don't really affect anyone else...or your self really.
Not so with alcohol.
Feel free to pull up the statistics on alcohol related deaths, abuse, and sexuality - compare it to tattoo related deaths, abuse, etc...
Are they remotely equivalent?
Alcohol is in a class of items that Christians should abstain from in America. Romans indicates that we shouldn't cause other folks to stumble. I believe alcoholic beverages in America rises to that level of stumbling block BECAUSE it can affect us AND OTHERS negatively - and when it affects us negatively - the damage is often PERMANENT.
How many jobs lost, marriages ruined, deadly auto accidents, livers damaged does it take for a denomination to take a stand against an item that can creep up on many? Are we so weak a people that we don't want to take a stand against anything that is destroying us? Are we that timid anymore?
Sure (I know this isn't you Tom) - there are those of you that have a beer and a glass of wine and never have a problem with it - that is what you have done for the last 40 years and you handled it easily. You have done it for 40 years and never became enslaved by it. I get it. And if you lived on an island by yourself - I would agree it is not a sin to drink your fill of anything you want.
But are there any family members that admire your liberty - and are not doing as well with it? Can everyone limit themselves as you have - or is this item in a separate class - where often folks can't limit themselves?
Bottomline:
Has culture and the world changed in 2000 years and should scripture be interpreted in light of today's culture? I say yes. (as with women being granted leadership in the church - but that is another thread)
Should Christians be able to use God given intelligence and point out things that are destroying folks all around us? I say yes.
Are there things that Christians ought to give up for the good of all the Christians and unbelievers around us who watch how we live? I say yes there are.
And alcoholic beverages are on that list.
I say as leaders, as a denomination, we ought to share those things with new Christians and show them a better way...which is why I am in total agreement on this. |
NBF - I posted this on another forum, but I think it will work here for our dialog as well... In fact, reading your response probably helped me understand things I need to clarify for myself, if not for others with whom I am engage in dialog on this matter. So.........
#1 - I teach/preach of the destructive threat of addiction/drunkenness...period.
#2 - I teach/preach of the destructive threat of licensed liberty found in the, "Because-I-Can-The-I-Will" ideology...period.
So the fair question that has come to me via text message, phone call, and Facebook messenger is, "Then what is your problem with the position paper? Does it not meet the issues that YOU see as critical?"
ANSWER: Yes...and no.
Trying to articulate my core concern: The definitive statements and inferences fracture the foundation of the basis of my faith in that is seeks to inform my understanding of everything from salvation to sanctification to the validity of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Just read the other surrounding threads on this forum...and listen...)
THE EXPECTED REPLY: "Tom, nowhere in the paper does it say 'You are not saved or you are not sanctified if you do...or don't do..."
TOM'S REPLY: (Please hear my heart...)
I agree that a trajectory that starts in a flaunting of liberty lands squarely in the potential for us to be at worst "enslaved," or at a minimum "loveless" and selfish. (I didn't invent that, Paul said it - very clearly...)
SO....I DO GET IT....
HOWEVER...there is another implied "trajectory" that we also cannot ignore and the language is contained in the paper that is presented. IT FEEDS THE ATTITUDE of: "I can tell you exactly at what point you are saved...at what point you are sanctified...and at what point you a baptized in the Holy Spirit!"
And "FOR ME" (again, "FOR TOM") that scares the poop out of me.
At what point do we have to confess to ourselves that we have crossed the line of the warning of the prophet that, "YOU HAVE DONE EVIL...YOU CAME TO A FOUNTAIN THAT IS GOD AND TAKEN A PIECE OF HIM...PUT HIM IN A BOX (cistern) AND SAID 'I KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH OF GOD THERE IS AND EXACTLY HOW HE WORKS!' " (Jeremiah 2:13 - Tom's paraphrase).
I am concerned once we start that trajectory it also lands squarely in an expressed Pentecost that no longer holds our faith in the amazing grip of a Holy hesitation that prepares us for the wonderfully uncertain encounter of our next Upper Room moment. Or simply put, as the prophet said, "At some point you will discover your God-box is empty!"
But that's me...
In the end - I think it is logically, if not spiritually, inconsistent to passionately warn of the trajectory (slippery slope - often used) of flirting with the unnecessary liberty of addictive substances AND THEN fail to notice the even more dangerous trajectory of flirting with speaking definitively in matters of God's grace and the work of the Holy Spirit in each life.
Unfortunately - there are no statistics for the latter... |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
9/20/17 10:21 am
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| Some final thoughts... |
Aaron Scott |
There is nothing in the world wrong with the Church of God requiring abstinence in members.
There is EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD WRONG with claiming that abstinence is demanded by scripture.
I believe the Church has grown over the centuries to the place where we realize that alcohol is a greater danger. As the Church, we can make certain statements about what we believe is best, what is required for membership, etc.
What we cannot do is claim that the scriptures state that abstinence is required.
The paper mentioned was NOT a theological paper, but a position paper written by theologians. That's a good idea. But while our DENOMINATIONAL stance is that alcohol and tobacco are to be abstained from (in any shape, form, or fashion, as they used to say), we cannot state that the scriptures tell us that we cannot drink AT ALL.
I do not drink at all, as I imagine most on here are also teetotalers. But while we have a bomb-proof scripture against fornication, adultery, lying, etc., we cannot say the same of drinking...and so we shouldn't make any claim that the scriptures command abstinence, when instead it is the denomination, based on the very highest intentions, that requires abstinence. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
9/20/17 10:41 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron,
Thanks.
I think you are closer to what I wanted to say than I was.
I simply think there are things that a denomination can and should ask of it's members if we truly want to help them. Practical commitments are ok imho...but they are not a condition of salvation. I believe Paul dished out a bunch of these practical commitments in his writings - which we can copy the intent of them - while making modifications regarding 2017 realities.
I lived through the slippery slope where my pastor had me sit on the back row because my hair was too long - and called my name out from the pulpit to get saved because my hair was on my ear. I even had disagreements with my mother regarding it - thanks to an idiot pastor. All while I lived closer to God than I ever did.
I have lived legalism - and I hate it. I don't want it in any way.
BUT - I think it is a disservice to our members to not warn them in the strongest possible manner available to a church - that there are things we should not do to be representative members of our church. It need not be a long list - but it should include those things that have a high probability of lasting, severe consequences. Abortion would be another one.
I understand there are others with Tom's position that agree with the warning - but are afraid it is a slippery slope to have a denomination ask its members to make a commitment not to do certain things. Where does it end? I get the argument.
I have no doubt I might be wrong - especially when I am on the opposite side of folks I respect a lot.
However, right now I am convinced that this particular type of evil rises to the highest level of warning a church can give.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
9/20/17 11:52 am
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Da Sheik |
Nothing like a good debate on the dangers / merits of alcohol to resurrect the forum like a Phoenix rising from the ashes; if only for a season. Well played OTCP. I'll drink to that !  |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/20/17 12:54 pm
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Mat |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | Nothing like a good debate on the dangers / merits of alcohol to resurrect the forum like a Phoenix rising from the ashes; if only for a season. Well played OTCP. I'll drink to that ! |
Since we have the liberty, let's light one and chill! Maybe get some tacos later.
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
9/20/17 1:45 pm
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Tom Sterbens |
| Mat wrote: |
Since we have the liberty, let's light one and chill! Maybe get some tacos later.
Mat |
I take it then you didn't read what I posted previously in response to you.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
9/20/17 2:10 pm
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Da Sheik |
Tom, I appreciate your contributions in this thread. Good to see you posting again. I often wonder how relevant this discussion is outside of the United States. America definitely has a culture of drunkenness. In my city, they recently did a DWI checkpoint in the middle of the day. I was astounded at the number of arrests that yielded at that time of day.
What makes this discussion even more polarizing is that it seems there are only two options given : abstinence or drunkenness. Romans 14 refers to these discussions as "disputable matters". That means there should be some room in between for discussion |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/20/17 3:14 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Actually Shiek - there is a 3rd option - Tom's position.
He favors abstinence - just not as a COG commitment - since he doesn't see the Bible as dogmatic in an alcohol prohibition.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
9/20/17 3:27 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| Can one a you fellers hand the ole timer another 6-Pack a Miller Light, I got to study fer ma SS lesson. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
9/20/17 3:38 pm
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| Dave.. |
renewal |
If the Spirit was involved in the Reformation then he should be involved today..
So what has been suggested should happen without a problem...Right?
Again after Sunday service, the entire church should be invited to a beer bust.
If not why not?
Waiting on an answer..If a pastor thinks it is ok to drink than he should be able to drink in front of and with the entire church...If not why not?
He should be able to drink to the glory of God....If not why not?
I will wait for an invitation to drink from a pastor who will publish it to their church....It will never arrive...
Will it? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
9/20/17 4:05 pm
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Da Sheik |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Actually Shiek - there is a 3rd option - Tom's position.
He favors abstinence - just not as a COG commitment - since he doesn't see the Bible as dogmatic in an alcohol prohibition. |
This is my position as well. I just happen to think we are in the minority. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
9/20/17 4:09 pm
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| I should have put a smiley face |
Mat |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Mat wrote: |
Since we have the liberty, let's light one and chill! Maybe get some tacos later.
Mat |
I take it then you didn't read what I posted previously in response to you. |
Tom,
I'm going with Brad answer, but I should have put a smiley face. As to where it stops, as they say 'one man's ceiling is another man's floor."
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
9/20/17 4:18 pm
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| One More Observation, To Stir the Pot |
mytwocents |
The paper says: "Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances . ."
Sooooo, what are we gonna do about Coffee?  |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 813
9/20/17 9:23 pm
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| Re: I should have put a smiley face |
Tom Sterbens |
| Mat wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Mat wrote: |
Since we have the liberty, let's light one and chill! Maybe get some tacos later.
Mat |
I take it then you didn't read what I posted previously in response to you. |
Tom,
I'm going with Brad answer, but I should have put a smiley face. As to where it stops, as they say 'one man's ceiling is another man's floor."
Mat |
Two things:
1 - Please don't stomp on your floor too loudly - it might keep me awake.
2 - Please pray for the rest of us.
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4507
9/20/17 11:16 pm
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