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 OTCP...consider this about Ph.Ds... |
Aaron Scott |
We know that we can CLEP courses and receive credit for them. There are accredited universities that do something similar (though it is not called CLEP, but more like "knowledge-based" credit, etc.).
So, if someone receives a Ph.D from an accredited university (since "non-accredited" tends to mean, for you, fake) under similar circumstances--demonstrating suitable knowledge of the subject matter, etc.--would that be acceptable for you? If so, why? If not, why?
Further, what if they just did it for free? You didn't have to attend a single class, just either take the test AND/OR write a dissertation, or in some way show suitable knowledge of the topic? Would that work, too?
Breathlessly awaiting your reply. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
7/29/17 4:54 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| There are some undergrad programs where CLEP courses can be used. They is also a few school that will award a few hours in a undergrad program for life experience. However, no legit masters program, an certainly no legit docter's program will ever award life experience or CLEP hours. Schools advertising folk can git em a doctorate based on life experience/CLEP is a mill. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/29/17 5:53 pm
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| OTCP...ah, but WHY NOT? |
Aaron Scott |
Why won't they award those hours if a person truly knows the material?
Is it because a university wants money...or is it because no one truly could pass the test?
Look, I don't at all begrudge a university asking someone to actually show up and take the courses. I truly don't. What I DO begrudge (for some reason) is the notion that UNLESS ONE DOES SHOW UP AND TAKE THE COURSES (i.e., PAY for them!), then their education is somehow less legit than otherwise...when, in fact, their experience might far surpass all the education one could obtain in the classroom. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
7/29/17 6:40 pm
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| Re: OTCP...ah, but WHY NOT? |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | Why won't they award those hours if a person truly knows the material?
Is it because a university wants money...or is it because no one truly could pass the test?
Look, I don't at all begrudge a university asking someone to actually show up and take the courses. I truly don't. What I DO begrudge (for some reason) is the notion that UNLESS ONE DOES SHOW UP AND TAKE THE COURSES (i.e., PAY for them!), then their education is somehow less legit than otherwise...when, in fact, their experience might far surpass all the education one could obtain in the classroom. |
Aaron, sorry, but it aint about what either you or me begrudge, like or dislike. This is the way it works in academia. What I have shared with you are the accepted standards of academic protocol.
Now, lets take your position. A feller learns all the material in a given discipline outside the classroom or academic setting. This is wonderful. Nothin wrong. It is commendable an the feller should be honored for what he has learned. But if he has not earned the docterate via standard global protocol, he has not earned the right to be called Dr. This does not demean his accomplishments outside of academia. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
7/29/17 10:38 pm
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Link |
PhD programs do not usually allow people to take a little test and exempt out of coursework. As far as I know, that sort of thing is for the gen ed core for undergraduate degrees. The college or university is supposed to teach that actual coursework for the degree, be it undergraduate or graduate. Colleges require a certain number of course hours be exempted at that institution to grant a degree.
PhD seminars can be very intense. I did not study theology, so things may be a bit different in that field. But in my field, we took seminars where we might study 8 or 10 papers a week. A paper could be 50 pages with in depth theoretical argument combined with complicated statistical research. One paper per week could be rather overwhelming, and they make no sense before one has gained the knowledge of the introduction to quantitative methods. Even after several stats may not teach enough to understand the statistical model in a given paper. There are seminars in the subject area, in stats, and research methods.
In the seminars, the professor teaches about the theory, trends in the field, writings styles, research methods, etc. Other grad students present, and we learn from interaction with faculty and fellow grad students.
After the first year, for my qualifier for a given question, I had to memorize the contributions of a many, many papers including the citation, author(s) and years, and write a response to a question in the form of a paper, citing sources as I went. This was 'closed book'. After the second year, I basically had to spend a week in a room writing a research proposal, citing sources, and coming up with something new to research. That is not easy considering the seemingly near-infinite number of things that have been researched that are out there in the literature.
After the first two years, an ideal time-table would be to come up with something new to research and write up a proposal in year three, and to collect the data and write up the dissertation in year four. It is fairly typical for the whole process to take about five years, actually.
And it is pretty much a full-time job, like a full-time salary job in terms of hour, not a full-time 9 to 5 job. There were nights I would go to sleep at 2 or 3 AM.
My master's degree was very tough, too, and required lots and lots of reading. I'd go to bed at 12 or 1 at times and have to be at school at 6:45.
_________________
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
7/30/17 2:18 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron, this CLEP stuff hurts your/our argument. Please drop this line of nonsensical reasoning.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16633
7/31/17 8:20 am
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| NBF... |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Aaron, this CLEP stuff hurts your/our argument. Please drop this line of nonsensical reasoning. |
Actually, I think it makes the point that a person who COULD pass all the classes that a Ph.D passes, could do any of the coursework assigned, but doesn't (which could be due to CLEP or due to just not having enough time to actually or pay for all of these courses) should not be looked down on just because they didn't receive their Ph.D the standard way.
Either you have the chops or you don't. If you do, then an honorary degree can be a recognition that you do have all the necessary chops...and as such should not be looked down on just because someone decides to use the honorific. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
7/31/17 10:58 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Exactly my point.
The honorary degree has nothing to do with being able to perform classwork. That's what a regular degree is for. And when you confer a degree, an institution says we have prepared a student to be successful in this field. Clepping everything would give the institution no basis to confer a degree whatsoever.
An honorary degree simply says - this person has already accomplished greatly in a particular field - so much so - that we hope some or even one of our current students accomplishes as much in their lifetime.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16633
7/31/17 11:19 am
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| NBF... |
Aaron Scott |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Exactly my point.
The honorary degree has nothing to do with being able to perform classwork. That's what a regular degree is for. And when you confer a degree, an institution says we have prepared a student to be successful in this field. Clepping everything would give the institution no basis to confer a degree whatsoever.
An honorary degree simply says - this person has already accomplished greatly in a particular field - so much so - that we hope some or even one of our current students accomplishes as much in their lifetime. |
The argument that I have made a number of times is that if someone like Queen Elizabeth II were awarded an honorary degree, her actual abilities almost certainly far surpass any Ph.D in the field. That is, she has the actual/literal abilities of any Ph.D in, say, government.
I am trying to make the point (and apparently not doing so) that if someone could actually pass all the coursework for a Ph.D (whether we know that because we just know they are that smart or that take a CLEP-like test to demonstrate it), it STILL would not fly for OTCP. He views a person as worthy of a Ph.D ONLY if he/she actually sits in the desk, hears the lectures, takes each test, pays for the credit hours, etc.
I am saying that there are multiple paths to such mastery (even if we might not actually award a literal Ph.D). Further, I am saying that IF IF IF we could award a Ph.D based on actual knowledge of the content (i.e., via some sort of CLEP process), it seems that OTCP would contest that, as well. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
7/31/17 11:26 am
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| Here's an analogy for you. |
bonnie knox |
There was a toad that caught flies like nobody's business. We called him a toad 'cause that's what he was. Not much could catch flies like that toad. The flyswatter wasn't even a match. But then someone put up some flypaper. The flypaper caught more flies than the toad. However, we still could not call the flypaper a toad because it wasn't actually a toad even though it could catch flies just as well or better.
NOBODY was insulting the flypaper by not recognizing it as a toad. NOBODY was saying the flypaper couldn't catch flies as well as the toad. It's just that it wasn't a toad, so we didn't call it a toad. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
7/31/17 11:42 am
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| Re: Here's an analogy for you. |
Nature Boy Florida |
| bonnie knox wrote: | There was a toad that caught flies like nobody's business. We called him a toad 'cause that's what he was. Not much could catch flies like that toad. The flyswatter wasn't even a match. But then someone put up some flypaper. The flypaper caught more flies than the toad. However, we still could not call the flypaper a toad because it wasn't actually a toad even though it could catch flies just as well or better.
NOBODY was insulting the flypaper by not recognizing it as a toad. NOBODY was saying the flypaper couldn't catch flies as well as the toad. It's just that it wasn't a toad, so we didn't call it a toad. |
Not the same.
Toad can work in any weather - flypaper ruins unless it's dry.
So any accredited institution would not award an honorary doctorate to the flypaper.
Try again.
A doctorate in music is awarded to humans in the hopes that they will use the knowledge gained by the institutions rigorous studies - and by recommendation of the faculty of said prestigious university - to contribute greatly in the field of music.
However, the same institution wants to award George Gershwin an honorary doctorate in music.
No one can find fault with an institution showing their students and alumni what a successful lifetime contribution in music would look like by awarding a doctorate to Gershwin.
If he wants to use the title Doctor - he would be right in doing so - as the institution has conferred the doctorate and he is thus entitled to all the rights and privileges that go with such a document.
This is the proper usage of the honorary doctorate.
If I had a university and said university awarded doctorates in "waste of time argumentations ad infinitum" NBF would gladly award one to OTCP, Aaron and Brad as they have demonstrated uncanny skill in those endeavors.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16633
7/31/17 1:39 pm
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| NBF |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | | If I had a university and said university awarded doctorates in "waste of time argumentations ad infinitum" NBF would gladly award one to OTCP, Aaron and Brad as they have demonstrated uncanny skill in those endeavors. |
Sadly, you couldn't even get an honorary degree in this important field. Well, actually, UF would probably give you an actual doctorate, but no one else.
Have I mentioned lately how I loathe you? 
Love ya, bro. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
7/31/17 2:14 pm
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bonnie knox |
Hey, if you're not smart enough to hang the flypaper under the shed, on the porch, or in the barn, it's not the flypaper's fault. Besides that, the flypaper works night AND day.
| Quote: | | Toad can work in any weather - flypaper ruins unless it's dry. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
7/31/17 2:41 pm
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