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Awkward scenario unfolding (happened here)
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Post Awkward scenario unfolding (happened here) Dean Steenburgh
**couldn't say anything earlier but it happened here at FCC - read post at the bottom.

Try to get to the point.

A friend of mine has a church where they need a facility manager to park an RV where they live permanently for free including all utilities & WiFi.
Long term facility mngr just moved away from his church last month so began the interview process for a new replacement.

Finally selected a young couple with small kids & the husband has a really good paying job close by.
Young mom is available to do all the facility work to maintain the premises where 4 churches who use the place.
They move their 42' long 2016 5th wheel into place ...nice & snug.
Less than 2 weeks goes by & pastor finds out they're having marital issues.
The lady takes the kids & leaves the property & moves in with a friend until the husband can decide to find his own apartment close by. She does continue to do the work needed in order to fulfill the requirements.
They spent time in the court system setting up custody arrangements for the kids while they're separated.
Then comes the bombshells.
She tells of a sordid past to which there are lots of unfortunate details.
Come to find out she is not only staying with the friend but she is romantically involved with her as well.
She wants to remain at the church as the facility mngr & the pastor is a little worried about possible legal ramifications.
Now she is offering to cut off the relationship in order to maintain the use of the RV spot.

My words were: better cut the losses now as diplomatically as possible to keep the injury as small as possible.

What say ye?
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Last edited by Dean Steenburgh on 6/21/17 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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6/9/17 7:47 pm


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Post Re: Awkward scenario unfolding Cojak
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Try to get to the point.

A friend of mine has a church where they need a facility manager to park an RV where they live permanently for free including all utilities & WiFi.
Long term facility mngr just moved away from his church last month so began the interview process for a new replacement.

Finally selected a young couple with small kids & the husband has a really good paying job close by.....

My words were: better cut the losses now as diplomatically as possible to keep the injury as small as possible.

What say ye?


What a sad situation. Yes, I agree using what is told. The RV should be moved and the agreement dissolved. It should not be done in anger but in love but business like.

so many situations come up today that were VERY rare in the past. Very stressful for any leader, especially a pastor is should always show love and understanding, but above all protect his flock. Sad
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6/9/17 8:31 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Another question is, "Do the pastor and the couple have a contract agreement signed?"

Often in church situations, there are verbal agreements that are sealed with a handshake and an amen. Perhaps things have changed in that realm, but my hubby & I were burned badly in a situation in which there was no written contract. We were verbally promised things that never happened, and we came out on the bad end of that deal. We promised ourselves that would never happen again. If there's no written agreement, the pastor can probably get out of the arrangement pretty easily. If there is a written agreement, he needs to check to see what his legal responsibility is, and if there is a moral clause in it that would give him an out.

This is an unfortunate situation, but I would agree that the pastor needs to protect his people and the churches involved. If he can minister to this young couple, they certainly need it, but I think it would be best not to be involved in a business relationship, since this sounds like a complicated situation that would time to work through and resolve.
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6/9/17 9:24 pm


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Post Re: Awkward scenario unfolding c6thplayer1
Cojak wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Try to get to the point.

A friend of mine has a church where they need a facility manager to park an RV where they live permanently for free including all utilities & WiFi.
Long term facility mngr just moved away from his church last month so began the interview process for a new replacement.

Finally selected a young couple with small kids & the husband has a really good paying job close by.....

My words were: better cut the losses now as diplomatically as possible to keep the injury as small as possible.

What say ye?


What a sad situation. Yes, I agree using what is told. The RV should be moved and the agreement dissolved. It should not be done in anger but in love but business like.

so many situations come up today that were VERY rare in the past. Very stressful for any leader, especially a pastor is should always show love and understanding, but above all protect his flock. Sad


Agreed..
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6/9/17 9:26 pm


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Post Focus on the job description Mat
As a pastor who had both church staff and large daycare (26 employees), I would focus on the job description. The caretaker is to live on the property (RV space) as a key part of the agreement (this speaks to availability due to the needs related to the facilities hosting four congregations). Secondly, has job performance suffered? As in the work is not being done to satisfaction or the hours required are not being met.

If you are a "right-to-work" (which covers more than union or not issues) state, you have some legal grounds for dismissal at will (the employers will that is). However, I would have an employee file that stated job related issues just in case, and before dismissal I would have an exit interview stating these issues.

Church is one thing, but dealing with employees is another. Do not document or discuss her sexuality or marriage in relation to her employment, and whatever you do, don't create documents, including council or board meetings, in which these issues are discussed.

That said, you never know when the former employee will get a lawyer or go to the EEOC (or whatever government agency it is in your state).

Remember, the employee misrepresented or failed to disclose all issues that would hinder them/her from meeting the requirements of the job. In the future, an employment background check, E-verify and a drug test at hiring can do wonders for you employment problems. Plus, call the reference on the application and document who called and the date.

Mat
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6/10/17 6:19 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
The caretaker is to live on the property (RV space) as a key part of the agreement (this speaks to availability due to the needs related to the facilities hosting four congregations). Secondly, has job performance suffered? As in the work is not being done to satisfaction or the hours required are not being met.


If she has continued to do the job well, what would be the grounds for dismissal unless there is a morality clause in the job description? Of course I don't know what the sordid background details are, but if she is not required to be a church member and is not a risk for theft of property, she might continue to do a good job. From her perspective, if she loses a place to stay and a job after having lost her marriage, she will feel pretty helpless.
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6/10/17 10:54 am


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Post The RV Cojak
The full hookup parking spot is a real incentive for an onsite employee if they are already living in the MH.

Moving the RV can be a major cost point. It may seem no big problem for those who are not familiar with parking costs for an RV. Even where we sit right now (MTS of NC), unless you you are with some discount group, the costs per night here is $60.

I am sure in that area of the USA there are many places to which the RV could be moved, but in many cases an apartment cheaper, but then one will have to pay $ to store the RV.

The RV actually complicates the problem unless the facility buys it to use as a supplied quarters for the next custodian.. BUT but a 5th wheel of that size can be mega bucks. Sad
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6/10/17 2:58 pm


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Post Re: The RV Mat
Cojak wrote:
The full hookup parking spot is a real incentive for an onsite employee if they are already living in the MH.

Moving the RV can be a major cost point. It may seem no big problem for those who are not familiar with parking costs for an RV. Even where we sit right now (MTS of NC), unless you you are with some discount group, the costs per night here is $60.

I am sure in that area of the USA there are many places to which the RV could be moved, but in many cases an apartment cheaper, but then one will have to pay $ to store the RV.

The RV actually complicates the problem unless the facility buys it to use as a supplied quarters for the next custodian.. BUT but a 5th wheel of that size can be mega bucks. Sad


My goodness, $60 a night (or more), $600 every 10 days and around $1,800 per month. Plus payments, plus insurance, plus a truck to pull it, plus gas. Give me a cabin in the corner of Gloryland, or a clean hotel room on the beach for a week's vacation. At the cost of an RV make it two weeks and upgrade the room.

You just upset my dreams of having an RV on the beach.

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6/10/17 4:03 pm


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Post Carolyn Smith
Can't you park at an RV park for a certain amount weekly or monthly, also, Cojak? That's the way it was when we traveled. Plus state parks and such were usually cheaper.
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6/10/17 6:13 pm


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Post oh yes on camping Carolyn Cojak
I know this is not on subject, but it is about the RV.

Yes, the State parks, Corps of Engineers and national parks are much more reasonable. How ever they are not full hook up, as a rule.

Also the idea of a 'club' has expanded. We are now in a Thousand Trails group that has 80 parks, we stay at any of them and pay $550 a year. The stays are no cost, but finding an opening is getting harder of course. They are as Space available.

PS NEVER buy the membership from the main provider. Our membership sold for $5000, we bought it on the internet for $400.

The parks we stay at in Florida charge the guy driving in off the street $45 a night. You can buy 4 months much cheaper.

I don't want to hijack the OP. But Mat is pointing out something I was saying, the full hook up site is very appealing to folks like us who live full time in the RV.
Wink
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Post Re: oh yes on camping Carolyn Carolyn Smith
Cojak wrote:
I know this is not on subject, but it is about the RV.

Yes, the State parks, Corps of Engineers and national parks are much more reasonable. How ever they are not full hook up, as a rule.

Also the idea of a 'club' has expanded. We are now in a Thousand Trails group that has 80 parks, we stay at any of them and pay $550 a year. The stays are no cost, but finding an opening is getting harder of course. They are as Space available.

PS NEVER buy the membership from the main provider. Our membership sold for $5000, we bought it on the internet for $400.

The parks we stay at in Florida charge the guy driving in off the street $45 a night. You can buy 4 months much cheaper.

I don't want to hijack the OP. But Mat is pointing out something I was saying, the full hook up site is very appealing to folks like us who live full time in the RV.
Wink


Thanks, Cojak. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread, either. But the cost of parking the RV is pertinent to the discussion, I think.

And Mat, the gas bill is very expensive too. Think 5-6 gallons per mile. Much cheaper to get a truck with a 5th wheel pull out.
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6/10/17 8:06 pm


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Post Re: oh yes on camping Carolyn Mat
Carolyn Smith wrote:
Cojak wrote:
I know this is not on subject, but it is about the RV.

Yes, the State parks, Corps of Engineers and national parks are much more reasonable. How ever they are not full hook up, as a rule.

Also the idea of a 'club' has expanded. We are now in a Thousand Trails group that has 80 parks, we stay at any of them and pay $550 a year. The stays are no cost, but finding an opening is getting harder of course. They are as Space available.

PS NEVER buy the membership from the main provider. Our membership sold for $5000, we bought it on the internet for $400.

The parks we stay at in Florida charge the guy driving in off the street $45 a night. You can buy 4 months much cheaper.

I don't want to hijack the OP. But Mat is pointing out something I was saying, the full hook up site is very appealing to folks like us who live full time in the RV.
Wink


Thanks, Cojak. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread, either. But the cost of parking the RV is pertinent to the discussion, I think.

And Mat, the gas bill is very expensive too. Think 5-6 gallons per mile. Much cheaper to get a truck with a 5th wheel pull out.


This really cuts into my "being a beach bum living in my RV parked at the beach" dream.

Mat
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6/11/17 7:19 am


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Post bonnie knox
Mat, a few weeks ago, I came across a YouTube channel that featured cheap RV living (or living out of a car). Hold onto your dreams! [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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6/11/17 7:37 am


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Where did the RV come from before it came to the church property?

Give them 3 months rent and send them back there.
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6/11/17 7:47 am


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Post Cojak
Knowing the RV would be a sticking point I re read the OP. This is a big dude and fairly new. Not every RV Park can park a 42' 5th wheel. Since it has been along time since we have been in Northern California (assuming the area) I copied this from the net:

Northern California RV Parks -
www.oakcreekrv.com/rv-park‎▼
 (866) 916-1318‎

Daily Rates Starting at $53. Pull Thru, Pool, Clubhouse, Spa & More. Book Now!‎
Barbecue Area‎ · Fitness Center‎ · Spas‎ · Laundry Facilities‎
Contact Us‎ - Resort Photos
*********** ********* *********

Of course longer leases, at a reduced rate, are available and most full timers use them.

But for a person living in an RV, the 'position' described in the OP is a definite plus. Many full time folk park for labor and maintenance in MOST parks, especially the State, Fed, and Corps parks but in our case we enjoy the moving so we haven't tied ourselves down for the long haul.

My prayers are the pastor can work this out painlessly for him and the worker (s). The offer of a free months (by NBF) as a last resort, may work. Sad Just a thought, maybe an offer of longer time 'storage' no hook ups (and no liability), if there is room would also be a good incentive. Cool
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6/11/17 10:12 am


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Post Re: Focus on the job description Cojak
Mat wrote:
As a pastor who had both church staff and large daycare (26 employees), I would focus on the job description. The caretaker is to live on the property (RV space) as a key part of the agreement (this speaks to availability due to the needs related to the facilities hosting four congregations). Secondly, has job performance suffered? As in the work is not being done to satisfaction or the hours required are not being met.

If you are a "right-to-work" (which covers more than union or not issues) state, you have some legal grounds for dismissal at will (the employers will that is). However, I would have an employee file that stated job related issues just in case, and before dismissal I would have an exit interview stating these issues.

Church is one thing, but dealing with employees is another. Do not document or discuss her sexuality or marriage in relation to her employment, and whatever you do, don't create documents, including council or board meetings, in which these issues are discussed.

That said, you never know when the former employee will get a lawyer or go to the EEOC (or whatever government agency it is in your state).

Remember, the employee misrepresented or failed to disclose all issues that would hinder them/her from meeting the requirements of the job. In the future, an employment background check, E-verify and a drug test at hiring can do wonders for you employment problems. Plus, call the reference on the application and document who called and the date.

Mat


I went back and re read the OP & Comments. Since I have never lived in any state other than a 'right to work' one, I do not know the ramifications pointed out by Mat. It seems his comment probably addresses the problem very well.

PS: Hey Mat, it wasn't meant to 'bust your dreams' lots of us still 'be gypsies' and enjoy the life. Smile Every month we send our tithe and offering back to the home church, it is signed 'your gypsy members'. Smile I am sure the pastor appreciates us, at least we can't give him any headaches from many miles away. Surprised
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6/11/17 10:38 am


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Post **UPDATE** Dean Steenburgh
California is an 'at will' state. You can be fired 'at will' of the employer w/out cause if needed.
The 5th wheel belongs to the couple who moved in almost 30 days ago.

More complications - the young woman who is supposed to do the cleaning wasn't available yesterday because her sick Gma died Sat. morning. She had to leave town to go spend time with family members.

There is no written contract for the people to fall back on & no signatures have been shared or transferred.

The young woman spoke to the pastor on Fri. afternoon stating that she is willing to cut off all relationship ties to the other woman in order to have a place to live & enroll her kids in a nearby school.
Little hard to believe her & take her at her word at this point I would say.
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6/11/17 10:56 am


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Post Re: **UPDATE** Mat
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
California is an 'at will' state. You can be fired 'at will' of the employer w/out cause if needed.
The 5th wheel belongs to the couple who moved in almost 30 days ago.

More complications - the young woman who is supposed to do the cleaning wasn't available yesterday because her sick Gma died Sat. morning. She had to leave town to go spend time with family members.

There is no written contract for the people to fall back on & no signatures have been shared or transferred.

The young woman spoke to the pastor on Fri. afternoon stating that she is willing to cut off all relationship ties to the other woman in order to have a place to live & enroll her kids in a nearby school.
Little hard to believe her & take her at her word at this point I would say.


Document absence in file. What is church bereavement policy? Number of days and letter from funeral home on deceased or other proof - obit in paper. Not trying to be hard, but she is not in a ministry position and the church has to be protected. What about libility for RV on property? Who's insurance? What if the husband comes and gets it while she is gone? Does someone call the police?

The church is/has now "paid" for services not provided - the RV there and the church was not cleaned (by her). Since no contract has been signed and she is not an hourly employee, there is no leverage as to when or how often she is to provide services. Rules regarding managing "contractors" are different from hourly and can be continuous.

Mat
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6/11/17 4:19 pm


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Post Cojak
WOW, It is really tough for a pastor to be compassionate and also handle the curve balls that are being thrown. OUCH. My prayers for them under stress.
Sad
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6/11/17 11:45 pm


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Post Re: oh yes on camping Carolyn Lonestar
Carolyn Smith wrote:
Think 5-6 gallons per mile. Much cheaper to get a truck with a 5th wheel pull out.


5 to 6 gallons per mile or 5 to 6 miles per gallon?
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