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Quiet Wyatt |
| A believer is, by definition, not one who willfully persists in sin/disobedience. If one who was sanctified decides to go on willfully sinning, he then has become by definition an unbeliever. |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 11:16 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Eph. 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. NIV
God's wrath comes upon those who are disobedient. |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 12:03 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Rom. 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. NIV |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 12:14 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | A believer is, by definition, not one who willfully persists in sin/disobedience. If one who was sanctified decides to go on willfully sinning, he then has become by definition an unbeliever. |
What does "by definition" mean? Believers don't willfully sin?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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Posts: 9027
5/9/17 12:25 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Eph. 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. NIV
God's wrath comes upon those who are disobedient. |
I don't know that a better translation will help you. You don't seem understand some foundational truths. But I'll take a swing at for anyone reading the thread. First, here's a much more accurate translation of this verse.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
I don't know what the NIV translators did with the word "huios" in the Greek, which means "son, or descendant". But they totally omitted it and it matters. The sons of disobedience are "born of disobedience" or "fathered by disobedience." Whose disobedience fathered them?
Eph 5:7 Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
We are not idolaters, adulterers, liars...we are new creatures in Christ, children of Light. We've been re-fathered.
We are fathered by Light or born of Light.
There are 2 men - Jesus and Adam. We are either born "in" Adam or born again "in" Christ.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive... 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
Adam - disobedient one who "made" us sinners.
Jesus - obedient one who "made" us righteous.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous
When we were born in the flesh, we were born of Adam, the sons of disobedience. We weren't born of our disobedience, we were born of Adam's. We were the sons of disobedience.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
When we were born again in the Spirit, we were born of Christ, the sons of obedience, the children of Light. It wasn't our obedience that resulted in justification, it was His obedience we are born of, or are sons of. We are sons of God, children of Light.
As those who are born again, we have already inherited the kingdom. We are in the kingdom and the kingdom is in us.
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
This disobedience that brings God's wrath is unbelief...and only unbelief. This separates you from "life" (where you are in Christ and judged by His deeds - He is your life), puts you in "good and evil" and you will be judged by your deeds.
Heb 3:16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
What is the disobedience that keeps you out? Unbelief.
What is the obedience that takes you in? Faith.
Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
Unbelief is the disobedience that brings wrath.
Faith is the obedience that brings rest.
Our faith has given us a new birth, a new nature.
Eph 5:8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
We "are Light" even while we are "trying to learn" how to "walk as children of Light" and what pleases the Lord. That's how the just man lives...by faith.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 1:03 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Believers/those who are believing, by definition, don't willfully persist in sin. Unbelief is the fundamental sin to all other sins. If one who has been a believer does sin, the Lord chastens/disciplines them so that they may be partakers of His holiness, as Heb. 12 says. If such a one despises and rejects the discipline of the Lord, they demonstrate that they are not His children any longer.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 5/9/17 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 1:08 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
It is always somewhat amusing when you start to get up on your high horse and suppose you are some kind of enlightened teacher, brad. You seek to deceive people with VAIN WORDS, teaching that grace (as you define it) means the Christian need never fear sinning and backsliding, so long as one 'has faith' as you see it.
The sons of disobedience are those who PRACTICE sin/disobedience, just as the sons of righteousness are those who PRACTICE righteousness.
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:-10 NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203&version=NIV |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 1:15 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Believers/those who are believing, by definition, don't willfully persist in sin. Unbelief is the fundamental sin to all other sins. If one who has been a believer does sin, the Lord chastens/disciplines them so that they may be partakers of His holiness, as Heb. 12 says. If such a one despises and rejects the discipline of the Lord, they demonstrate that they are not His children any longer. |
What verse in Hebrews 12 says this?
"as Heb. 12 says. If such a one despises and rejects the discipline of the Lord, they demonstrate that they are not His children any longer."
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 1:49 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | It is always somewhat amusing when you start to get up on your high horse and suppose you are some kind of enlightened teacher, brad. You seek to deceive people with VAIN WORDS, teaching that grace (as you define it) means the Christian need never fear sinning and backsliding, so long as one 'has faith' as you see it.
The sons of disobedience are those who PRACTICE sin/disobedience, just as the sons of righteousness are those who PRACTICE righteousness.
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:-10 NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203&version=NIV |
Just stating my position and welcoming dialogue.
I will caution you that, while I enjoy reading the NIV, you should build your theology around a more accurate translation - NRSV, NASB and several others. Here's the passage you quoted:
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
A few questions on how you interpret this passage:
Do you practice lawlessness?
How do you practice righteousness?
Can you sin?
How did Abraham practice righteousness?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 5/9/17 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 9027
5/9/17 1:56 pm
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bradfreeman |
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Are we saved from wrath through our good behavior or "through Him?"
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 2:07 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| bradfreeman wrote: | Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Are we saved from wrath through our good behavior or "through Him?" |
Pitting good works against Christ is something the inspired writers of Scripture never did, and is simply begging the question. Christ died to sanctify a people unto himself. When Jesus is LORD, the Spirit of Christ within the believer leads such a one in sanctified, spiritually alive behavior.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 5/9/17 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 2:52 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| It is yet another smug, baseless assumption on your part for you to to say or imply that I build or have built my theology around the NIV. I am not a one-version only person at all. |
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Posts: 12792
5/9/17 2:54 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | It is yet another smug, baseless assumption on your part for you to to say or imply that I build or have built my theology around the NIV. I am not a one-version only person at all. |
I'm glad to hear that you use other versions. Let's get off the insults and back onto scripture:
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),
There are 2 ways to "practice righteousness", depending on which covenant you're under.
When you're in the flesh, practicing righteousness means not practicing lawlessness...it means behaving.
When you're in the spirit, practicing righteousness means believing...it's "righteousness based on faith"...it means believing.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 3:10 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Pitting good works against Christ is something the inspired writers of Scripture never did, and is simply begging the question. Christ died to sanctify a people unto himself. When Jesus is LORD, the Spirit of Christ within the believer leads such a one in sanctified, spiritually alive behavior. |
They did it all the time. They are simply 2 different ways to gain life. The idea that you can, by your good works, build a tower to Heaven, climb up some other way or earn righteousness is literally constantly put forth in scripture.
Here's a quick pitting:
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 3:13 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | When Jesus is LORD, the Spirit of Christ within the believer leads such a one in sanctified, spiritually alive behavior. |
Why do you say "when Jesus is LORD?"
Jesus is Lord!
We don't make Him Lord. His Father raised Him up and seated Him far above all rule and authority. His Father made Him Lord.
I certainly am not suggesting that the Spirit doesn't lead us into love, life, faith and freedom. The OP simply asks if believers, who are justified by faith, are really at peace with God or if that peace comes and goes based on your performance.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/9/17 3:19 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| bradfreeman wrote: |
I don't know that a better translation will help you. You don't seem understand some foundational truths. |
Ah, the Brad" belittle the guys he is talking to" strategy.
Why any of you guys try to have a discussion about biblical things with this guy is beyond me.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
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Posts: 16619
5/9/17 4:17 pm
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Link |
This is a passage where God gets vengance on those who commit a sin, written to an audience of believers to convince them not to commit the sin.
I Thessalonians
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
5/9/17 8:06 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: |
I don't know that a better translation will help you. You don't seem understand some foundational truths. |
Ah, the Brad" belittle the guys he is talking to" strategy.
Why any of you guys try to have a discussion about biblical things with this guy is beyond me.
|
Your comments are helpful...
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/10/17 6:49 am
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bradfreeman |
| Link wrote: | This is a passage where God gets vengance on those who commit a sin, written to an audience of believers to convince them not to commit the sin.
I Thessalonians
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. |
Avenge - ekdikos - avenging, subst: an avenger (the word occurs frequently in the sense of a special advocate [champion] of a city).
It is encouraging that we don't have to avenge ourselves.
If Paul is not simply the statement in other epistles that we should act like those Gentiles still under His wrath:
1. Is God at peace with the believing offender?
2. Is His correction a. proof of sonship and b. for our good?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
5/10/17 6:57 am
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Resident Skeptic |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Link wrote: | This is a passage where God gets vengance on those who commit a sin, written to an audience of believers to convince them not to commit the sin.
I Thessalonians
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. |
Avenge - ekdikos - avenging, subst: an avenger (the word occurs frequently in the sense of a special advocate [champion] of a city).
It is encouraging that we don't have to avenge ourselves.
If Paul is not simply the statement in other epistles that we should act like those Gentiles still under His wrath:
1. Is God at peace with the believing offender?
2. Is His correction a. proof of sonship and b. for our good? |
The whole purpose of receiving the Spirit is because without it, we are still in the flesh with a mind set on the things of the flesh ,and cannot please God (Romans 8).
| Quote: | 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. |
God's Spirit is given to bring a change in behavior. If one is living with their mind set on what the flesh desires, either they never received the Spirit, or they have relieved him of his authority as governor of their life, and are no longer submitted to the lordship of Jesus. They are at enmity with God and will be damned.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
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Posts: 8065
5/10/17 8:40 am
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