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Ronald |
| Onions cannot save anyone! For a sacrifice to be accepted there must be the shedding of blood. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 405
3/9/17 3:51 pm
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| Re: Because: |
bonnie knox |
What about the grain offerings in Leviticus 2:1-3?
Why do you assume the voluntary offerings of Cain and Abel were meant to "save" them?
Leviticus 2:1-3 NKJV
‘When anyone offers a grain offering to the Lord, his offering shall be of fine flour. And he shall pour oil on it, and put frankincense on it. 2 He shall bring it to Aaron’s sons, the priests, one of whom shall take from it his handful of fine flour and oil with all the frankincense. And the priest shall burn it as a memorial on the altar, an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the Lord. 3 The rest of the grain offering shall be Aaron’s and his sons’. It is most holy of the offerings to the Lord made by fire.
| Ronald wrote: | | Onions cannot save anyone! For a sacrifice to be accepted there must be the shedding of blood. |
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Posts: 14803
3/9/17 3:58 pm
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| Re: Semantics: "of" or "from" |
Nature Boy Florida |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | The Hebrew renders the word "from"; therefore
Cain brought from the fruit of the ground while the passage emphasizes Abel brought an offering from the firstlings of the sheep/goats as well as the "fat from them."
The detail is significant. |
Is the word blood mentioned?
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Posts: 16633
3/9/17 4:09 pm
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| NBF, |
Mark Ledbetter |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | Mark Ledbetter wrote: | The Hebrew renders the word "from"; therefore
Cain brought from the fruit of the ground while the passage emphasizes Abel brought an offering from the firstlings of the sheep/goats as well as the "fat from them."
The detail is significant. |
Is the word blood mentioned? |
No, no direct reference to the word "blood"
By inference, however, it can be assumed blood was shed with the slaughter of the sheep/goats. I don't believe the fat can be retrieved without the shedding of blood.
It is difficult not to read into a passage that which is written afterwards regarding the law of blood sacrifices and burnt offerings.
What we find taking place is the inference, including blood being shed when God presented Adam and Eve with "garments of skin [hide]."
We assume it is so.
Perhaps what we have a foreshadowing, a projection of things to come.
The sacrifice Abel provided, however, should not be projected as a "type" of Jesus' sacrifice; there can be an analogy drawn, though.
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Posts: 2109
3/9/17 4:47 pm
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| Re: Why was Cain's sacrifice rejected? |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | The most common answer I've heard is that Cain's offering wasn't a blood sacrifice. But I am not convinced that that is the truth of the matter. God said that his sacrifice was rejected because sin lay at the door.
What do you think? |
I know in his debate with Pence he came across as being very creepy.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/11/17 1:16 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Were first fruits required of Cain or Abel? Was blood sacrifice required?
The scripture doesn't indicate that either of these were requirements for the offerings of Cain or Abel.
One Wednesday night, our pastor asked the class about Cain's sacrifice. Apparently the woman who answered had heard the same teaching the pastor had because she gave the answer he wanted. She said that when the Bible said Cain took OF the fruit of the ground that meant he just haphazardly took some and not the best part. Who knew "OF" meant all that? I can only guess they had been listening to the same radio or TV preacher who must have come up with that (probably before asking people to send their best offering).
Once the law was instituted, there were various offerings. Some offerings were not blood sacrifices, so I don't see a reason God would have rejected an offering of the fruit of the ground if Cain's heart had been in the right place. |
Just like the scripture does not indicate that Abraham was required by God to tithe a tenth of other people's property to Melchizedek, or that he ever repeated the practice. Yet look at what outrageous doctrine is invented and instituted in the church based on that story.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
3/11/17 1:21 pm
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diakoneo |
I am still trying to figure out how Cain knew it was rejected???
It is certain that he knew it and that Abel knew his was accepted.
I don't believe this was the first time they had seen this (acceptance or rejection of sacrifice) happen and they were probably doing as they had seen their parents do.
It appears that God did not make it some kind of mystery when He was pleased with a sacrifice. |
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Posts: 3382
3/11/17 2:23 pm
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Therefore, I concluded that the metaphor of the produce growing out of the earth as being a work of the flesh uncalled for. |
Wood, hay and stubble (growing out of the earth, works of the flesh) won't hold up. But gold, silver and precious stones (the treasure in the earthen vessel) will. See 1 Cor. 3.
Heb 11 tells us why Abel's sacrifice was accepted. I think we can reasonably infer why Cain's wasn't. If you think that inference is "uncalled for", then don't teach it.
Abel's pictured faith in Christ and produced righteousness.
Cain's pictured faith in the sweat of Cain's brow.
Now if you'd like to discuss the picture painted by first-fruits offerings under the Law, we can.
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Posts: 9027
3/12/17 7:29 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I think we can reasonably infer why Cain's wasn't. |
That depends on our bias. You are saying that because Cain's offering was not a blood sacrifice it is a picture of works of the flesh. I'm saying that is an uncalled for metaphor when you consider the other things that are "pictures of faith" (all from Hebrews ch. 11):
Noah built an ark
Abraham wandered as a nomad in a strange land
Sarah had a baby when she was naturally too old
Amram and Jochebed hid Moses in a basket |
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Posts: 14803
3/12/17 8:21 am
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Bro Bob |
I would agree that Noah's faith motivated him to do some work. Did his faith matter? Yep. The notion that his work was un-necessary fails the truth test. Without Noah's work we wouldn't be here.
BB |
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3/12/17 8:36 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Quote: | | I think we can reasonably infer why Cain's wasn't. |
That depends on our bias. You are saying that because Cain's offering was not a blood sacrifice it is a picture of works of the flesh. I'm saying that is an uncalled for metaphor when you consider the other things that are "pictures of faith" (all from Hebrews ch. 11):
Noah built an ark
Abraham wandered as a nomad in a strange land
Sarah had a baby when she was naturally too old
Amram and Jochebed hid Moses in a basket |
Gen 4:2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground.
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Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/12/17 8:49 am
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bradfreeman |
| Bro Bob wrote: | I would agree that Noah's faith motivated him to do some work. Did his faith matter? Yep. The notion that his work was un-necessary fails the truth test. Without Noah's work we wouldn't be here.
BB |
John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Heb. 10:7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Whether it's an ark, a lamb, bread from Heaven, a giant-slayer...when we see Christ pictured, foreshadowed, written of, we see it correctly. When we see ourselves, we miss it.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
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Posts: 9027
3/12/17 8:53 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Whether it's an ark, a lamb, bread from Heaven, a giant-slayer...when we see Christ pictured, foreshadowed, written of, we see it correctly. When we see ourselves, we miss it. |
If this is true, you make my case that it was NOT the lack of blood, i.e. that is was produce of the ground, that caused the sacrifice not to be accepted. |
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Posts: 14803
3/12/17 1:49 pm
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Bro Bob |
| Quote: | | John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; |
That is an interesting proof text.
The thing about lawyers is this: They are trained to choose the result they want to see, then select "evidence" they say leads to that result.
The thing about those who seek truth is this: They love it, trust it, and follow it wherever it leads.
My words are worthless, but you will never see me teach salvation by works, because that, too, is false doctrine. The three verses that precede verse 39 reveal truth.
How can anyone claim to believe Jesus if they will not hear his words?
John 5:36-38
36 I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish ~ the very works that I am doing ~ testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
I see 3 things.
1) Jesus says his testimony is weightier than John's.
2) His actions (works) are his testimony, and add weight to his testimony. Jesus (truth) said his works testified heavily. Truth says our works testify.
3) The Father himself testified of His approval of what the Son came to do and was doing. (This is my beloved son...)
Let's make that 4 things.
4) There were those in that day that did not believe the Father or the Son. They are still with us.
There were some in that day, and there are some still today, who say let God be true, (Father, Spirit, Son) and every man a liar.
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Posts: 3945
3/12/17 3:32 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Bro Bob wrote: |
2) His actions (works) are his testimony, and add weight to his testimony. Jesus (truth) said his works testified heavily. Truth says our works testify. |
You got really, really close.
The Father worked. The Son worked.
We enter into that finished work by faith.
Truth says His works testify.
Apart from Him, we do nothing.
When we labor, more abundantly, it's not us but the grace of God working with us.
When we love, it's the fruit His Spirit produces in us.
When living water flows out of us, it's His Spirit.
When light shines out of us, it's the treasure inside.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/13/17 6:44 am
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Bro Bob |
John 14:12
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." |
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Posts: 3945
3/13/17 10:56 am
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Da Sheik |
| One of my favorite aspects of the whole narrative is how God interacts with Cain. Cain is angry and rebellious and God is gracious enough to dialogue with him, even offering another chance. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1861
3/13/17 12:57 pm
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Bro Bob |
| I couldn't agree more Da Sheik. |
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Posts: 3945
3/13/17 3:06 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | Cain's sacrifice grew out of the earth, the flesh - works.
Abel's pictured Christ - faith. |
BY FAITH Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain...
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Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
3/14/17 3:00 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Da Sheik wrote: | | One of my favorite aspects of the whole narrative is how God interacts with Cain. Cain is angry and rebellious and God is gracious enough to dialogue with him, even offering another chance. |
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why is your expression downcast? 7 Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it.” Gen 4:6-7 NET
One thing that has always stood out to me in the above portion of Scripture is that here the Lord reveals that after the Fall, mankind in fact retained free moral ability to do right or wrong, contrary to what Augustine, Calvin and most Western Christian theologians after Augustine would claim. |
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3/14/17 3:11 pm
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