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Should a Pastor's Salary be Commensurate with His Level of Academic Training?
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Post No Education Please FG Minister
I have a cousin that attends as COG in WNC and she is so proud of the fact that her pastor has no formal education. She's proud that he doesn't use notes when preaching. Education has no place in the pulpit for her and her family.

That's what we need - more uneducated pastors.

Now to the question - of course a pastor should be paid more if he has advanced degrees, but only if he has the skills, calling, and passion necessary to pastor that local church.

BTW - I'm not sure the metrics of church growth are fair, however. Some churches need to lose a few people before they can grow. What if you're the guy who is pastor during the pruning?
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Post skinnybishop
I think the pastor's education should absolutely be taken into consideration, when determining his/her salary, along with other factors, already mentioned in this thread.

But in our area, I think for most churches, the salary is the salary. One pastoral candidate has a high school diploma and 5 years experience. The other has 20 years of experience and a D.Min. It makes no difference, the salary is $600 per week.

Its one of the reasons, I decided NOT to pursue a doctorate. I was going to spend anywhere from $30-60K to earn that degree. Then what? I wasn't going to suddenly get a raise, because I now had a doctorate.

I decided "I'm not investing 4 years of my life and $30K (minimum) for the fun of it".

"Well, why don't you go on and do it. You never know what the future might bring", someone said. True. But without SOME incentive, there is no point in going through all that trouble.

Relationships and Results (numbers) are far more influential in the Church of God than education.
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Post Cojak
I was sorta shocked when I saw this. I thought the OTCP had been resurrected!
It is nice to go back and read some of the 'former' commenters though. Cool
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Post Dr.Acts
Good points by Skinny Bishop
There is a fine line though - if you had a choice as a church would you invest the $600 a week in a person with education or a person with no education. It is the long term investment that counts and we should really rethink why our own trained MDivs and DMins dont take a $600 a week church but go to other denomination as a trend.

To the original poster and his not so difficult dilemma - 450 people over 15 years is 30 people per year and not the greatest of results. MDiv teaches theology and hardly any church growth skills so the proposed comparison is somewhat apples and oranges.

But if it was IRL situation, I would keep the no-ed pastor with his 500 ppl congregation as long as he can maintain it. Then give the MDiv/Dmin a small 20 ppl start up or failing church and watch it grow

BTW a PTSDmin does not cost $30K not even 20 Smile
2020 has proven that ministry is not all about face to face relational stuff
And the track record of the MDiv shows someone on state level did not match his training to the right church
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Last edited by Dr.Acts on 4/21/20 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Too much carnality autumn trees twice dead
This is just way too much worldliness for me. I read where some want to be "ignorant for Jesus" and others want to be "educated for a higher salary". The worse is that since, they won't be getting a higher paycheck they refuse to go into debt.

Stop it.

Did any go into the ministry to serve God as He directs? First of all nobody will advance in the spiritual calling without "gifts and graces". One of the gifts we were given is the ability to reason (think) Isaiah 1:18 tells. That deals with understanding the state of man and the salvation God supplies. We must learn to do whatever it takes to be able to convey the Gospel to all people. That may be a formal education or it may be an informal one, but we need to be educated the best we can be.

Instead of worrying about if you will get more pay, think and pray concerning what God desires from you as you serve. What gifts do you have. If He has given you a sound (ordered) mind with the ability to learn, He might want you to go into education at a deeper level in order best to serve Him and the entire body.

Paul says we all need one another and so there is the need for some to learn basic exegesis, administration sermon construction and other academics to go along with the anointing from God. Does this mean they should get more money just because God called them to a higher education. No as I see that as what the gentiles seek after.

We are guilty of having an ecclesiastical hierarchy already. This just leads too often in pride in position/accomplishments and not putting Jesus in His proper place. The place Jesus chose was washing the feet of His disciples while God placed Him at the Head of all. Keep your eyes on that fact.

I believe in a livable wage, but not jockeying for more. I don't think education is a risk taken for a higher salary nor something not to be attained because you may not recoup the cost of the education. Have you forgotten the One who supplies ALL your needs according to His riches in glory.

The determining factor must be "has God called you and empowered you to a higher education" and the only reason is to better serve Him and the church. In doing that you bring Glory to God. If He has, I believe walking in obedience is the most profitable thing there is. It is way more than money.

We are not in competition but according to Ephesians 4, we need to work together to bring all to the completion in the image and maturity of the Lord. I see that has being neglected, but that is another post.

Go and seek the Lord for what He will have you to do. If He calls you, He will make the way. But never make economic concerns the motivating factor. Isn't that idolatry and not showing satisfaction in how God is providing for you.

Remember no matter what God calls you to do, obedience to His call brings the peace of Jesus and contentment.

But godliness with contentment is great gain, 1 Timothy 6:6
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Post Re: Too much carnality skinnybishop
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
This is just way too much worldliness for me. I read where some want to be "ignorant for Jesus" and others want to be "educated for a higher salary". The worse is that since, they won't be getting a higher paycheck they refuse to go into debt.

Stop it.

Did any go into the ministry to serve God as He directs? First of all nobody will advance in the spiritual calling without "gifts and graces". One of the gifts we were given is the ability to reason (think) Isaiah 1:18 tells. That deals with understanding the state of man and the salvation God supplies. We must learn to do whatever it takes to be able to convey the Gospel to all people. That may be a formal education or it may be an informal one, but we need to be educated the best we can be.

Instead of worrying about if you will get more pay, think and pray concerning what God desires from you as you serve. What gifts do you have. If He has given you a sound (ordered) mind with the ability to learn, He might want you to go into education at a deeper level in order best to serve Him and the entire body.

Paul says we all need one another and so there is the need for some to learn basic exegesis, administration sermon construction and other academics to go along with the anointing from God. Does this mean they should get more money just because God called them to a higher education. No as I see that as what the gentiles seek after.

We are guilty of having an ecclesiastical hierarchy already. This just leads too often in pride in position/accomplishments and not putting Jesus in His proper place. The place Jesus chose was washing the feet of His disciples while God placed Him at the Head of all. Keep your eyes on that fact.

I believe in a livable wage, but not jockeying for more. I don't think education is a risk taken for a higher salary nor something not to be attained because you may not recoup the cost of the education. Have you forgotten the One who supplies ALL your needs according to His riches in glory.

The determining factor must be "has God called you and empowered you to a higher education" and the only reason is to better serve Him and the church. In doing that you bring Glory to God. If He has, I believe walking in obedience is the most profitable thing there is. It is way more than money.

We are not in competition but according to Ephesians 4, we need to work together to bring all to the completion in the image and maturity of the Lord. I see that has being neglected, but that is another post.

Go and seek the Lord for what He will have you to do. If He calls you, He will make the way. But never make economic concerns the motivating factor. Isn't that idolatry and not showing satisfaction in how God is providing for you.

Remember no matter what God calls you to do, obedience to His call brings the peace of Jesus and contentment.

But godliness with contentment is great gain, 1 Timothy 6:6


I think you are overreacting to a simple discussion. I also think you are making assumptions about people's motivations for ministry, when you don't know their backgrounds.

No one has said, "If I'm not paid, I won't preach". My first pastorate paid ZERO. Nothing, nadda, zip. I initially drove 45 miles, one way, to pastor that congregation.


What I said is, there is no purpose in ME going into debt, to obtain a doctorate, to then pastor the same church, for the same salary. At this point in my life, that isn't idolatry, that's intelligence.

For me, education isn't a God issue. I went to back to school in 2011 because I wanted to.....not because God called me to.

God called me to pastor. I'm doing that. So the decision to further my education, or not, has nothing to do with fulfilling my calling.

Education is a practical matter to me. It is an optional activity, not a divine assignment.

Pastoring is my calling
Education is my choice.
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Post Too easy autumn trees twice dead
of a deflection and justification. Each person must follow the Lord and are accountable for it.- For me, it is trusting in God knowing He has my best interest at heart and blesses me when I am obedient to seeking and trusting in Him. We all chose for ourselves. God bless

32 For the Gentiles strive after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you. John 6
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Post Believers autumn trees twice dead
One more thought if you think I am overreacting or being too serious. I doubt seriously that when I get up to heaven if jesus will admonish me for taking Him or His word too seriously. God bless.
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Post ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Aaron Scott
I can hardly believe we're even discussing this!

When it comes to divine things, we should pay no premium on ignorance...or education. Why? Because if we truly believe in the supernatural and the spiritual realm, we know that divine empowerment is a BILLION TIMES more important than one's degrees or lack thereof!

Do you not recall how the apostle were understood to be unlearned men? Regardless of what it was that gave them away, the disciples made no claim to education. Even Paul, who was educated, counted all of those things as DUNG.

If your purpose as a pastor is to impress your flock and dazzle them with your theological prowess, then maybe you better get an education. However, if you understand that your purpose as a pastor is to speak with the authority of heaven, as oracles of God, and to love and shepherd, etc., then education is well down the list.

Further--and being an educated man, I think this is indeed the case--the more THEOLOGICAL education you receive, the more likely you are to have reduced spiritual power. Let me explain....

The more educated you are, the more you are exposed to viewpoints that invite doubt, invite synthesis, etc. Now, it may very well be the case that such exposure actually benefits you--it has benefited me over the years. But let me give you an example....

You are called to preach. You are hot under the collar with zeal and fire. You have read your Bible and prayed diligently for each service. Then you go out and study theology....

Well, along with a lot of wasted time having to learn Greek (since, apparently none of the prior Greek scholars, with DECADES of personal experiences, can be trusted to properly translate the Greek into English, so you need to take a couple of years of Greek just to keep them straight), you also are exposed to textual criticism and, depending on the professor, are left with doubts about the validity of scripture, etc..

There is another issue.... The professors may have been educated in non-Pentecostal, liberal seminaries. This often causes them to have a very liberal viewpoint (you might recall a while back, on Facebook, Travis Johnson took a lot of heat for pointing out one professor's somewhat condescending view of Church of God folks, declaring, if I recall right, that she somehow didn't feel safe around such Trump supporters). This can infect students.

I love education. I am learning every single day, if possible. But ask yourself a very simply question: Would you rather have the unlearned Apostle John as your pastor...or John MacArthur...or, for that matter, the best educated pastor in the Church of God?

We do have men who came through the education process still filled with Pentecostal fire. We have Paul L. Walker, Paul Conn, Ray H. Hughes, and on and on. But I dare say that this current generation of up-and-coming ministers did not come up in the same soil and conditions as these men, and as such, being hit hard by liberal theology or politics, it might have a greater effect on them.

Here's how you pay your pastor....

You have a minimum (that meets the pastor's needs for himself and his family) that any pastor who comes will receive.

If that person has strong experience, then tack on some percentage more.

Then, as you observe their ministry, as you observe whether the church is growing (in maturity, if not in numbers), THEN you add more (or do not add anything more), as necessary.

Consider that a well-educated preacher who comes to pastor a church...might have been getting his education, while the other contender for the position was out preaching revivals during those years.

Consider that the educated man may have never pastored before, while the uneducated man (this does not mean he is ignorant or unable!) has successfully pastored elsewhere.

Education is important. It is not nearly, remotely as important being an anointed minister. It's not even close!

In fact, I dare say that the whole question of whether to pay an educated pastor more than the uneducated pastor arises from when people think that earthly education even compares with a God-given touch.

Give me a pastor that has immersed himself in the WORD...and not in commentaries ABOUT the Word. HUGE DIFFERENCE!


Last edited by Aaron Scott on 4/22/20 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Dr.Acts
Aaron Scott wrote:
the more THEOLOGICAL education you receive, the more likely you are to have reduced spiritual power.


True, education did not make me a preacher
But education did make me a better preacher
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Post What Do They Preach? FG Minister
What do the un-schooled preachers preach? I heard lots of them growing up in the COG. They preached their favorites. Then they re=preached them. There were lots of sermons on the rapture, heaven, hell, salvation, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Ghost at my home church).

Did we ever hear an expose on the differences between Calvinism and Wesley/Arminianism? Nope. Did we ever learn the theological positions of women in the pulpit V men only? Nope. What about a sermon making a strong case for the Trinity? Nope.

We heard one side of all issues because those pastors didn't know the other side of the issue. They couldn't teach us how to stand our ground and refute arguments that were being debated in Christianity.

Would I rather have a guy who is called and un-schooled as opposed to one who is schooled and not called? Yes. But please don't extol the virtues of the unschooled pastor. It makes those who do so look dumb.
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Post Of course autumn trees twice dead
The anointing is what counts in preaching, but I have heard too many emotional off the top of the head rantings trying to pose as the anointing. The flock didn't get fed, but an emotional fix.

As far as Paul counting it all dung, as everything is in comparison to our new life, he was comparing. He did tell us in

2 Timothy 2 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

He saw the benefit of studying.

Study is an old english word that today would mean "do your best" or "make every effort" or "be diligent".

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (ESV)

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)

We are approved by God because we have worked hard by both prayer and study to get the meaning from the scripture that God intended. God gives us the approval because we passed the test and came up with the right answer/meaning of the scriptures.

I believe it is a joint effort between the Holy Spirit and ourselves. I just wonder if many make excuses not to do their best, be diligent or make every effort to get the right meaning. Peter said Paul was often hard to understand yet He commended Paul.

15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.…2 Peter 3

The writer of the Hebrews said his readers were too dull for him to teach them the advanced doctrines and they needed to go back to be re-educated (Hebrews 5:).

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing..For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

They hadn't done their best.

Yes God used two unlearned and ignorant men in Peter and John
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.Acts 4

, but being unlearned and ignorant that the strict rule/requirement to be used of God. In my first post, I said we were all part of the Body of Christ and each one has their job to do. Sometimes, the job calls for a high degree of education. I can think of two more men who God used to write the majority of the New Testament - Paul and Luke. They were most likely the two best educated men in the early church. God used that to bless us with His word.

While Paul called everything as dung when comparing his life with salvation, he did say how highly educated he was, and especially in the Old Testament. He used that knowledge in so much of his writings in order to do his best to get the correct doctrine. :

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal. 1:14

Yes Paul conferred with no man, but his vast knowledge of the scriptures were there as the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning. He had to know them first. Read the NT and it is loaded with references to the OT. Better still read-

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
Beale, G. K and D. A. Carson, eds
.
Paul wrote to Timothy about how Timothy was taught and it made him wise for the things of salvation. It wasn't mechanical dictation although every word in the bible is God breathed. Paul spoke about Timothy's heritage from a godly mother and grandmother. I suspect Timothy was homeschooled on the OT, but with his father, being a greek, he had formal education. God used that as Timothy was both a Pastor and missionary.

luke was a doctor so you know that he had formal training.

Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colossians 4:14

We know that both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both leaders and as such, highly educated.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3

Joseph had a meeting with Pilate and no ordinary person could do that.

They were also highly used of God

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 19

WHAT AN HONOR TO TOUCH THE SLAIN , BEATEn AND BLOODIED BODY OF THE SAVIOR.

So you see God will use all for the betterment of the Body. The question I have are you offering yourself up to God in doing your best for the betterment of the Body?

Doing what we are called to do is not means for gain, but it is our reasonable service.
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Post Dr.Acts
ATTD's and others comments remind of a 2016 PEW article on
The most and least educated U.S. religious groups
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/
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Post You missed my point or I missed yours autumn trees twice dead
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Cor. 12

We all need each other, but we are all to do our best in serving the Lord and each other. We are to use our gifts and graces to the best we can

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Matt. 25 has an interesting view on this, but it is important that the talents we have are given from the Lord and He expects increase. Each of the 3 in Matt 25 were given different amounts of talents, but God blessed the one who used them, not for personal gain, but for the benefit and glory of God.
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Post we are one house and holy nation autumn trees twice dead
Peter tells in 1 Peter 2:
4As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone,

a chosen and precious cornerstone;

and the one who believes in Him

will never be put to shame.”a

7To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”b

8and,

“A stone of stumbling

and a rock of offense.”c

They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.d --------------------------------------------------------

We are all pieces of the whole, we all have been given gifts and graces, we are to use them for the glory of God and not for ourselves.

This is all I am saying. Do our best and do it selflessly.

Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 1 Cor. 14:2
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Post FG Minister... Aaron Scott
FG Minister wrote:
What do the un-schooled preachers preach? I heard lots of them growing up in the COG. They preached their favorites. Then they re=preached them. There were lots of sermons on the rapture, heaven, hell, salvation, sanctification, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Ghost at my home church).


First, all the great preachers in the Church of God tended to have their sure-fire stable of sermons. For instance, Ray H. Hughes preached his "keeper" sermons multiple times.

Let's see: rapture, heaven, hell, salvation, sanctification, and the Baptism of the Holy Ghost are the topics? AND THAT'S A BAD THING?

Don't you recall that Paul DETERMINED not to know anything but "Christ and Him crucified"?

These are THE sermons that make a difference in eternity. The rest is may be about things that are related to the gospel...BUT THEY ARE NOT THE GOSPEL.





Did we ever hear an expose on the differences between Calvinism and Wesley/Arminianism? Nope. Did we ever learn the theological positions of women in the pulpit V men only? Nope. What about a sermon making a strong case for the Trinity? Nope.

Friend, we have never settled the matter for OURSELVES, let alone preach a sermon that tries to come down on one side or the other of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Unless you KNOW the answer, you shouldn't be preaching it as truth. Because as anyone who studies the matter knows, you can make a good case either way!

The trinity? Friend, we can't adequately defend the case for the trinity ourselves, let alone remotely prepare our members to do so! In fact, I imagine a significant percentage of our members can't choose the correct statement about the trinity from a group of statements about the trinity--nor can some ministers. BUT WHY WOULD WE CARE? It's not a heaven or hell issue, nor can it be shown with significant certainty from the Bible.

Yes, these things are good to know. But what people NEED is divine insight, not academic knowledge about this or that position. Make sense?




We heard one side of all issues because those pastors didn't know the other side of the issue. They couldn't teach us how to stand our ground and refute arguments that were being debated in Christianity.

At one time (back in college), I was probably in the top tier of those who understood apologetics. Over time, I learned that if you go that road, you wind up having to argue all the time, because for every argument you win, there are 20 more that will pop up...and by the time you get done, they will have invented new arguments against Christianity.

Ultimately, it all boils down to this: Did Jesus rise from the dead? If not, then the other side wins. If so, then NOTHING. ELSE. MATTERS. If it happened, then they must, perforce, either heed His message...or deny it.

I'm good, but I can't win an argument about the trinity...I can't win an argument about free will vs. predestination...I can't win an argument about women vs. men in the pulpit.

Yes, I believe I can make the stronger case for my positions, but nothing is really settled by that.

Those preachers who are uneducated and just preach the same ol' stuff over and over? Those are the sermons that gave the Church of God its greatest growth and evangelical fire. Those are the sermons of REVIVAL.




Would I rather have a guy who is called and un-schooled as opposed to one who is schooled and not called? Yes. But please don't extol the virtues of the unschooled pastor. It makes those who do so look dumb.

I have not read of anyone extolling the virtues of ignorance. But the question was, in a sense, about which situation was preferable: an educated pastor vs. an uneducated one. And the answer is: The one with the touch of God. And that doesn't come from education...except in the things of God.





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Post Re: Of course Aaron Scott
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
The anointing is what counts in preaching, but I have heard too many emotional off the top of the head rantings trying to pose as the anointing. The flock didn't get fed, but an emotional fix.

As far as Paul counting it all dung, as everything is in comparison to our new life, he was comparing. He did tell us in

2 Timothy 2 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

He saw the benefit of studying.

Study is an old english word that today would mean "do your best" or "make every effort" or "be diligent".

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (ESV)

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)

We are approved by God because we have worked hard by both prayer and study to get the meaning from the scripture that God intended. God gives us the approval because we passed the test and came up with the right answer/meaning of the scriptures.

God did not send us a coded message. We don't have to have a significant education to "decode" the scriptures. Certainly, an advanced education might allow you to tease out cool things, but it is ONLY the anointing that gives you the POWER of the scripture and the illumination of the deeper truth.

Otherwise, it's ink on paper, words on a page.






I believe it is a joint effort between the Holy Spirit and ourselves. I just wonder if many make excuses not to do their best, be diligent or make every effort to get the right meaning. Peter said Paul was often hard to understand yet He commended Paul.

Certainly it is true that God blesses an effort. But I don't know of ANYONE who doesn't WANT to do their best (even if it is different than how you or I would envision it).

Every pastor I know of wants to bring an anointed, insightful, meaningful word from the Lord. Some may pursue that through academic studies and consulting commentaries, but it has virtually never come that way.

Yes, commentaries and the such can enrich, but they cannot enable your sermon. You can give a number of facts and historical applications, but the only way for it to work of God is to get God's insight. And that seldom, if ever, comes in a classroom or in a commentary. It would be nice (Saul's armor), it may even enhance your sermon, but the deeper truth must come from God.






15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.…2 Peter 3

This is NOT AT ALL about academic education. It is EVERYTHING about spiritual maturity.



The writer of the Hebrews said his readers were too dull for him to teach them the advanced doctrines and they needed to go back to be re-educated (Hebrews 5:).

Yes, but not at school--IN THE WORD.


Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing..For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

They hadn't done their best.

Again, you are conflating spiritual maturity with academic achievement. You could spend a LIFETIME in seminary and not "get" the whole Melchisidek thing. So, it's not academic education that is the issue. Rather, the readers had not spend adequate time in the Word and spiritual pursuit.


Yes God used two unlearned and ignorant men in Peter and John
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.Acts 4

Two? Andrew and James were fishermen too. I dare say that many of them were uneducated. In fact, the Bible lets us know that God chooses the weaker, baser folks for His service, to set at naught the things of the world.


, but being unlearned and ignorant that the strict rule/requirement to be used of God. In my first post, I said we were all part of the Body of Christ and each one has their job to do. Sometimes, the job calls for a high degree of education. I can think of two more men who God used to write the majority of the New Testament - Paul and Luke. They were most likely the two best educated men in the early church. God used that to bless us with His word.

Being unlearned and ignorant is, of course, not necessary to be used of God. But sometimes it helps if someone is simply an open vessel, and not one filled with preconceived notions that were installed by academic learning. Then again, being educated and brilliant isn't necessary either.

You might remember that Watson thought Sherlock Holmes was very ignorant because he didn't know about the opera or politics, etc. This is fictional, of course, but the point stands that filling you head with what you NEED is better than filling it willy-nilly with anything you can learn. Further, anyone who comes and preaches with the anointing and power doesn't get judged by their grammatically correct English.

The WORST sermon I remember hearing--and by worst, I mean powerless--was by a Church of God minister (now deceased) who was HIGHLY educated. Now, this was a good man, and he surely could preach much better than I heard, else I can't imagine him having had a significant of a church as he had. But the sermon simply had NOTHING on it (at least that night).

Yes, if you pastor doctors and lawyers, you certainly want to have the ability to speak at an educated level. But do you think a doctor would be more impressed with one's theological ability...or seeing a miracle? Exactly.

Most of Paul's disputes just wound up in a big fuss. But when they preached and performed miracles...yeah.





While Paul called everything as dung when comparing his life with salvation, he did say how highly educated he was, and especially in the Old Testament. He used that knowledge in so much of his writings in order to do his best to get the correct doctrine. :

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal. 1:14

Yes Paul conferred with no man, but his vast knowledge of the scriptures were there as the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning. He had to know them first. Read the NT and it is loaded with references to the OT. Better still read-

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
Beale, G. K and D. A. Carson, eds


That goes right back to the truth: A man who immerses himself in the Word of God and in the Spirit of God is the one that does the things of God. I don't know of ANY preacher that has been preaching for more than five years, say, that doesn't know scripture after OT scripture that relates to the NT.

So Paul had this vast education that God used? Great. But Peter didn't...and God used Him also. In fact, Peter was the one who helped usher in the gospel to the gentiles that Paul later focused on.


.
Paul wrote to Timothy about how Timothy was taught and it made him wise for the things of salvation. It wasn't mechanical dictation although every word in the bible is God breathed. Paul spoke about Timothy's heritage from a godly mother and grandmother. I suspect Timothy was homeschooled on the OT, but with his father, being a greek, he had formal education. God used that as Timothy was both a Pastor and missionary.

Luke was a doctor so you know that he had formal training.

John wrote a pretty good book...or two...or three...or four, and he didn't have any significant formal training, it appears.


Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colossians 4:14

We know that both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both leaders and as such, highly educated.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3

Joseph had a meeting with Pilate and no ordinary person could do that.

They were also highly used of God

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 19

WHAT AN HONOR TO TOUCH THE SLAIN , BEATEn AND BLOODIED BODY OF THE SAVIOR.

So you see God will use all for the betterment of the Body. The question I have are you offering yourself up to God in doing your best for the betterment of the Body?

If you mean studying the Word, I imagine most pastors are. If you mean going to college and getting an education, then....

Psalm 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Doing what we are called to do is not means for gain, but it is our reasonable service.
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Posts: 5608
4/22/20 10:28 am


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Post Re: Of course autumn trees twice dead
Aaron Scott wrote:
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
The anointing is what counts in preaching, but I have heard too many emotional off the top of the head rantings trying to pose as the anointing. The flock didn't get fed, but an emotional fix.

As far as Paul counting it all dung, as everything is in comparison to our new life, he was comparing. He did tell us in

2 Timothy 2 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

He saw the benefit of studying.

Study is an old english word that today would mean "do your best" or "make every effort" or "be diligent".

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (ESV)

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)

We are approved by God because we have worked hard by both prayer and study to get the meaning from the scripture that God intended. God gives us the approval because we passed the test and came up with the right answer/meaning of the scriptures.

God did not send us a coded message. We don't have to have a significant education to "decode" the scriptures. Certainly, an advanced education might allow you to tease out cool things, but it is ONLY the anointing that gives you the POWER of the scripture and the illumination of the deeper truth.

Otherwise, it's ink on paper, words on a page.






I believe it is a joint effort between the Holy Spirit and ourselves. I just wonder if many make excuses not to do their best, be diligent or make every effort to get the right meaning. Peter said Paul was often hard to understand yet He commended Paul.

Certainly it is true that God blesses an effort. But I don't know of ANYONE who doesn't WANT to do their best (even if it is different than how you or I would envision it).

Every pastor I know of wants to bring an anointed, insightful, meaningful word from the Lord. Some may pursue that through academic studies and consulting commentaries, but it has virtually never come that way.

Yes, commentaries and the such can enrich, but they cannot enable your sermon. You can give a number of facts and historical applications, but the only way for it to work of God is to get God's insight. And that seldom, if ever, comes in a classroom or in a commentary. It would be nice (Saul's armor), it may even enhance your sermon, but the deeper truth must come from God.






15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.…2 Peter 3

This is NOT AT ALL about academic education. It is EVERYTHING about spiritual maturity.



The writer of the Hebrews said his readers were too dull for him to teach them the advanced doctrines and they needed to go back to be re-educated (Hebrews 5:).

Yes, but not at school--IN THE WORD.


Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing..For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

They hadn't done their best.

Again, you are conflating spiritual maturity with academic achievement. You could spend a LIFETIME in seminary and not "get" the whole Melchisidek thing. So, it's not academic education that is the issue. Rather, the readers had not spend adequate time in the Word and spiritual pursuit.


Yes God used two unlearned and ignorant men in Peter and John
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.Acts 4

Two? Andrew and James were fishermen too. I dare say that many of them were uneducated. In fact, the Bible lets us know that God chooses the weaker, baser folks for His service, to set at naught the things of the world.


, but being unlearned and ignorant that the strict rule/requirement to be used of God. In my first post, I said we were all part of the Body of Christ and each one has their job to do. Sometimes, the job calls for a high degree of education. I can think of two more men who God used to write the majority of the New Testament - Paul and Luke. They were most likely the two best educated men in the early church. God used that to bless us with His word.

Being unlearned and ignorant is, of course, not necessary to be used of God. But sometimes it helps if someone is simply an open vessel, and not one filled with preconceived notions that were installed by academic learning. Then again, being educated and brilliant isn't necessary either.

You might remember that Watson thought Sherlock Holmes was very ignorant because he didn't know about the opera or politics, etc. This is fictional, of course, but the point stands that filling you head with what you NEED is better than filling it willy-nilly with anything you can learn. Further, anyone who comes and preaches with the anointing and power doesn't get judged by their grammatically correct English.

The WORST sermon I remember hearing--and by worst, I mean powerless--was by a Church of God minister (now deceased) who was HIGHLY educated. Now, this was a good man, and he surely could preach much better than I heard, else I can't imagine him having had a significant of a church as he had. But the sermon simply had NOTHING on it (at least that night).

Yes, if you pastor doctors and lawyers, you certainly want to have the ability to speak at an educated level. But do you think a doctor would be more impressed with one's theological ability...or seeing a miracle? Exactly.

Most of Paul's disputes just wound up in a big fuss. But when they preached and performed miracles...yeah.





While Paul called everything as dung when comparing his life with salvation, he did say how highly educated he was, and especially in the Old Testament. He used that knowledge in so much of his writings in order to do his best to get the correct doctrine. :

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal. 1:14

Yes Paul conferred with no man, but his vast knowledge of the scriptures were there as the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning. He had to know them first. Read the NT and it is loaded with references to the OT. Better still read-

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
Beale, G. K and D. A. Carson, eds


That goes right back to the truth: A man who immerses himself in the Word of God and in the Spirit of God is the one that does the things of God. I don't know of ANY preacher that has been preaching for more than five years, say, that doesn't know scripture after OT scripture that relates to the NT.

So Paul had this vast education that God used? Great. But Peter didn't...and God used Him also. In fact, Peter was the one who helped usher in the gospel to the gentiles that Paul later focused on.


.
Paul wrote to Timothy about how Timothy was taught and it made him wise for the things of salvation. It wasn't mechanical dictation although every word in the bible is God breathed. Paul spoke about Timothy's heritage from a godly mother and grandmother. I suspect Timothy was homeschooled on the OT, but with his father, being a greek, he had formal education. God used that as Timothy was both a Pastor and missionary.

Luke was a doctor so you know that he had formal training.

John wrote a pretty good book...or two...or three...or four, and he didn't have any significant formal training, it appears.


Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colossians 4:14

We know that both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both leaders and as such, highly educated.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3

Joseph had a meeting with Pilate and no ordinary person could do that.

They were also highly used of God

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 19

WHAT AN HONOR TO TOUCH THE SLAIN , BEATEn AND BLOODIED BODY OF THE SAVIOR.

So you see God will use all for the betterment of the Body. The question I have are you offering yourself up to God in doing your best for the betterment of the Body?

If you mean studying the Word, I imagine most pastors are. If you mean going to college and getting an education, then....

Psalm 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Doing what we are called to do is not means for gain, but it is our reasonable service.


Brother I didn't read much as you said that you didn't know any who didn't want to do their best. Even in these other posts some said they were not going on with an education because the return of=n their investment was bad. That isn't doing your best. It is very hard to explain something when many are comfortable where they are at. God bless
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4/22/20 10:58 am


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Post Autumn.... Aaron Scott
Quote:
Brother I didn't read much as you said that you didn't know any who didn't want to do their best. Even in these other posts some said they were not going on with an education because the return of=n their investment was bad. That isn't doing your best. It is very hard to explain something when many are comfortable where they are at. God bless





It seems that you have defined "doing your best" to mean advancing your formal education. Friend, I study WAY MORE in my informal education than I ever did in my formal education.

I read now because I'm hungry, not because I have to in order to pass a course. A person who is getting more formal education may not be studying NEAR as much as the person who is just devouring all they can find on a subject. Yet it would seem that you would think the former to be the one in the superior position.

I DON'T know any that aren't doing their best. It is foolhardy to place your family in a tight financial situation to achieve some false notion of what it means to "do your best."

Doing your best. That can mean many things besides "go back to school." For ME, it means more prayer time. For ME, it means more family time. It in no way means more education, since I'm not using but a portion of all the good things I have received from the Lord NOW! I have scores of sermons in the pipeline that I have not yet fleshed out. THAT is the endeavor I must take, not going back to school and spending my son's inheritance for the sub-optimal benefit such would give me.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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4/22/20 11:46 am


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Post Re: Of course skinnybishop
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
Aaron Scott wrote:
autumn trees twice dead wrote:
The anointing is what counts in preaching, but I have heard too many emotional off the top of the head rantings trying to pose as the anointing. The flock didn't get fed, but an emotional fix.

As far as Paul counting it all dung, as everything is in comparison to our new life, he was comparing. He did tell us in

2 Timothy 2 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

He saw the benefit of studying.

Study is an old english word that today would mean "do your best" or "make every effort" or "be diligent".

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (ESV)

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (NKJV)

We are approved by God because we have worked hard by both prayer and study to get the meaning from the scripture that God intended. God gives us the approval because we passed the test and came up with the right answer/meaning of the scriptures.

God did not send us a coded message. We don't have to have a significant education to "decode" the scriptures. Certainly, an advanced education might allow you to tease out cool things, but it is ONLY the anointing that gives you the POWER of the scripture and the illumination of the deeper truth.

Otherwise, it's ink on paper, words on a page.






I believe it is a joint effort between the Holy Spirit and ourselves. I just wonder if many make excuses not to do their best, be diligent or make every effort to get the right meaning. Peter said Paul was often hard to understand yet He commended Paul.

Certainly it is true that God blesses an effort. But I don't know of ANYONE who doesn't WANT to do their best (even if it is different than how you or I would envision it).

Every pastor I know of wants to bring an anointed, insightful, meaningful word from the Lord. Some may pursue that through academic studies and consulting commentaries, but it has virtually never come that way.

Yes, commentaries and the such can enrich, but they cannot enable your sermon. You can give a number of facts and historical applications, but the only way for it to work of God is to get God's insight. And that seldom, if ever, comes in a classroom or in a commentary. It would be nice (Saul's armor), it may even enhance your sermon, but the deeper truth must come from God.






15 Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.…2 Peter 3

This is NOT AT ALL about academic education. It is EVERYTHING about spiritual maturity.



The writer of the Hebrews said his readers were too dull for him to teach them the advanced doctrines and they needed to go back to be re-educated (Hebrews 5:).

Yes, but not at school--IN THE WORD.


Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing..For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

They hadn't done their best.

Again, you are conflating spiritual maturity with academic achievement. You could spend a LIFETIME in seminary and not "get" the whole Melchisidek thing. So, it's not academic education that is the issue. Rather, the readers had not spend adequate time in the Word and spiritual pursuit.


Yes God used two unlearned and ignorant men in Peter and John
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.Acts 4

Two? Andrew and James were fishermen too. I dare say that many of them were uneducated. In fact, the Bible lets us know that God chooses the weaker, baser folks for His service, to set at naught the things of the world.


, but being unlearned and ignorant that the strict rule/requirement to be used of God. In my first post, I said we were all part of the Body of Christ and each one has their job to do. Sometimes, the job calls for a high degree of education. I can think of two more men who God used to write the majority of the New Testament - Paul and Luke. They were most likely the two best educated men in the early church. God used that to bless us with His word.

Being unlearned and ignorant is, of course, not necessary to be used of God. But sometimes it helps if someone is simply an open vessel, and not one filled with preconceived notions that were installed by academic learning. Then again, being educated and brilliant isn't necessary either.

You might remember that Watson thought Sherlock Holmes was very ignorant because he didn't know about the opera or politics, etc. This is fictional, of course, but the point stands that filling you head with what you NEED is better than filling it willy-nilly with anything you can learn. Further, anyone who comes and preaches with the anointing and power doesn't get judged by their grammatically correct English.

The WORST sermon I remember hearing--and by worst, I mean powerless--was by a Church of God minister (now deceased) who was HIGHLY educated. Now, this was a good man, and he surely could preach much better than I heard, else I can't imagine him having had a significant of a church as he had. But the sermon simply had NOTHING on it (at least that night).

Yes, if you pastor doctors and lawyers, you certainly want to have the ability to speak at an educated level. But do you think a doctor would be more impressed with one's theological ability...or seeing a miracle? Exactly.

Most of Paul's disputes just wound up in a big fuss. But when they preached and performed miracles...yeah.





While Paul called everything as dung when comparing his life with salvation, he did say how highly educated he was, and especially in the Old Testament. He used that knowledge in so much of his writings in order to do his best to get the correct doctrine. :

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal. 1:14

Yes Paul conferred with no man, but his vast knowledge of the scriptures were there as the Holy Spirit revealed the meaning. He had to know them first. Read the NT and it is loaded with references to the OT. Better still read-

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament
Beale, G. K and D. A. Carson, eds


That goes right back to the truth: A man who immerses himself in the Word of God and in the Spirit of God is the one that does the things of God. I don't know of ANY preacher that has been preaching for more than five years, say, that doesn't know scripture after OT scripture that relates to the NT.

So Paul had this vast education that God used? Great. But Peter didn't...and God used Him also. In fact, Peter was the one who helped usher in the gospel to the gentiles that Paul later focused on.


.
Paul wrote to Timothy about how Timothy was taught and it made him wise for the things of salvation. It wasn't mechanical dictation although every word in the bible is God breathed. Paul spoke about Timothy's heritage from a godly mother and grandmother. I suspect Timothy was homeschooled on the OT, but with his father, being a greek, he had formal education. God used that as Timothy was both a Pastor and missionary.

Luke was a doctor so you know that he had formal training.

John wrote a pretty good book...or two...or three...or four, and he didn't have any significant formal training, it appears.


Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you. Colossians 4:14

We know that both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both leaders and as such, highly educated.

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
John 3

Joseph had a meeting with Pilate and no ordinary person could do that.

They were also highly used of God

38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 19

WHAT AN HONOR TO TOUCH THE SLAIN , BEATEn AND BLOODIED BODY OF THE SAVIOR.

So you see God will use all for the betterment of the Body. The question I have are you offering yourself up to God in doing your best for the betterment of the Body?

If you mean studying the Word, I imagine most pastors are. If you mean going to college and getting an education, then....

Psalm 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Doing what we are called to do is not means for gain, but it is our reasonable service.


Brother I didn't read much as you said that you didn't know any who didn't want to do their best. Even in these other posts some said they were not going on with an education because the return of=n their investment was bad. That isn't doing your best. It is very hard to explain something when many are comfortable where they are at. God bless


I dont know any kind way to say this, so here goes: You don't what you are talking about.
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