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"Should Members Keep Giving Money to a Church That Refuses to Disclose the Pastor's Salary?" (L)
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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Dean, the lady who posted the article doesn't had the bad attitude you think she does. You should look at her bio on her website. She's a pretty level-headed and generous person.
Neither do I have the attitude that you apparently think I have.
Also, your notion that people who say they pay in cash is hogwash is interesting. I helped count the money at our church for 7 years and every week there was a generous wad of cash that was easily enough to be someone's tithes. I never knew who it was. Maybe it's different here than in your church.
In the churches I grew up in, I doubt the pastor made very much, but at the Baptist church, we did at one point vote for him to go full time so that he could quit his job at the mill. I was ignorant enough at the time I thought "full time" meant we got to keep him forever. I loved him so I was all for that. But even when it was explained to me, I still thought it was a grand idea.
No, if the church helps me financially, I'm fine with full disclosure.


I think her attitude stinks honestly. If you come into my church as an observer you will find flaws guaranteed. I had a visitor last month who came two Sundays in a row & she didn't like the fact I used humor in my sermons, I can only imagine what she will write about.
As far as the money in the offering is concerned, I don't know how big of a church you attended so the theory may not apply when the crowd is huge. What I'm saying is we can't have 12 families claiming they only place cash in the plate & claim it to be generous tithe, not when the total cash is about $200.
Now if the 12 families are all on social assistance & giving all that they can sacrificially give ...sure I concede the point. But when people of solid means claim this it doesn't hold water.
Church isn't cookie cutter & that's why there are so many parts to the body of Christ ...thankfully!

.
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3/11/17 8:49 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
When you first mentioned my remark your first defense was that he was the one guilty of name calling ...very akin to our kids ministry where they use the same logic ...not calling you a child just using the kids for the analogy.
You may not see it but your comments often come across as crass & very snippy.
Just because you're on a talk board doesn't mean we lower the bar & treat people as we want to treat them.


Dean, that was not to defend myself, that was to point out YOUR hypocrisy!!! You claimed my tone was condescending but were seemingly not bothered at all at the name calling brotherjames had done.
You are carrying on and on and on about my tone and you are trying to condemn the way I "come across."
I don't have an issue with what I've written here.
I don't consider myself crass & snippy. I'm more scrappy than snippy. I am not crass, nope not my style. I am candid and frank and willing to be confrontational. But to be confrontational does not mean disrespectful. When someone sees confrontational as disrespectful, that could be an arrogance problem.
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3/12/17 8:34 am


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Post Dean says this about this lady (L) bonnie knox
Quote:
I think her attitude stinks honestly.


http://thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-dee/

This lady is more than I could ever aspire to, and Dean thinks her attitude stinks. Rolling Eyes
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3/12/17 8:39 am


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Post bonnie knox
Oh, and thanks, Dean, for keeping the thread count moving up here. I'm trying to make sure this thread gets as many hits as aprilmay's. Wink [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/12/17 8:43 am


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Post c6thplayer1
Quote:
They trust their board & they trust this pastor to not be greedy & ridiculous with the finances.



I wonder if that trust would remain if the salaries were published?

I too once trusted an admission clerk at one of my events until an audit was done and published for all to see. We were being clipped big time by the clerk.


Last edited by c6thplayer1 on 3/12/17 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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3/12/17 11:38 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
When you first mentioned my remark your first defense was that he was the one guilty of name calling ...very akin to our kids ministry where they use the same logic ...not calling you a child just using the kids for the analogy.
You may not see it but your comments often come across as crass & very snippy.
Just because you're on a talk board doesn't mean we lower the bar & treat people as we want to treat them.


Dean, that was not to defend myself, that was to point out YOUR hypocrisy!!! You claimed my tone was condescending but were seemingly not bothered at all at the name calling brotherjames had done.
You are carrying on and on and on about my tone and you are trying to condemn the way I "come across."
I don't have an issue with what I've written here.
I don't consider myself crass & snippy. I'm more scrappy than snippy. I am not crass, nope not my style. I am candid and frank and willing to be confrontational. But to be confrontational does not mean disrespectful. When someone sees confrontational as disrespectful, that could be an arrogance problem.


scrappy, snippy, crass ...it all begins to blend in with every negative comment you make regarding some of our nations largest churches. You used the author in the OP as some sort of church expert. She's not a church expert!
Anybody who looks at Pastor Furtick & others & finds faults as a way to write an article for the sole purpose of gaining readers is a carnival act at best.

I asked you a simple question in one post. I asked you if you believe every single word she writes & do you believe every single story she illustrates?
I asked for a simple YES or NO ...you didn't bother to respond. Why? Because you know for a fact there are holes in this woman's opinion & her story.

bonnie, I pointed out that you were playing a little rough with the attitude & in typical bonnie style you responded defensively.
You're oh so careful with your words about how you bring others to 'account' but boy you sure don't like it when you are brought to account.
I've asked you a few questions & you refuse to respond ...ok ...typical, but ...ok.
You won't respond to stuff I say but you'll go to the trouble to post a link & make a remark about me & what I say about the woman who wrote the goofy stuff about some of our largest & best churches & their pastors.
Have you ever given thought to the notion that God has placed His blessing on these churches that she writes so negatively about?
You even use her remarks in another thread to bolster your post as if the comment sounds more well thought out.

Quote:
Well, I wonder who their "ministry partners" are. The pastor Steve Furtick of Elevation Church lives in a 16,000 sq. ft. house and has his salary set by a selected group of mega pastors (such as Ed Young Jr.).


Quote:
I could say a lot more about Steve Furtick.
I'm saying I would not hold up the model of Elevation Church as a model of what is right with the evangelical church in the US and as a model of growth. In order to address the issue of overall church decline in the US, you would have to know if the people who are attending Elevation are the previously "unchurched" or if they've moved from other churches.
(We had a nice young couple in our church who moved there to be on staff.)
As far as making a salary from books and speaking engagements, yes, mega church pastors can do that once they've benefitted from their position enough to get the name recognition. The church buys enough books to get them on the New York Times Best Sellers list, their mega church pastor friends invite them to speak and they return the favor, with the congregation footing the bill.
Honestly, if you are looking at the big picture, I think you will find people who are done or at least disillusioned with the institutionalized church because of celebrity pastors who are living luxurious lifestyles and seemingly unconcerned with tending sheep.
"Am I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"


Are you some sort of a self appointed "church growth - quality control" supervisor who knows the best way to pastor a church?

Your issue with Furtick living in a 16,000 sq. foot home sounds like jealousy ...who cares what size his house is. Do you sound off when a pastor has to live in a 500 sq. foot apartment behind the church building because they can't afford anything better?

I think you stuck your neck out on this thread & you think you can make a point that all pastors need to follow the model of financial transparency set forth by this author you appear to adore.
Our church uses a model of transparency that works well for us.
The CoG has ministers sign off & agree to keep private the things we have access to in terms of financial reports, many of which are mere summaries lacking intimate detail. I don't hear anybody calling them deceptive.
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3/12/17 11:39 am


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Post c6thplayer1
Dean , Is there a lot of displeasure in your life ? Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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3/12/17 11:45 am


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Post Dean, you are pretty hard on Bonnie! COGLayman
Dean I think you should lighten up a bit. I agree with Bonnie and think full disclosure is the best policy. Secrecy breeds a lack of trust. I think the lack of HQ being willing to make a full disclosure on how the TOT was used led to the funds being cut.

I really do not think some leaders get how important this is to many people to have full disclosure of how the church monies are spent. It IS important to many people.

I have been in leadership positions in non-profit organizations where there had not been full disclosure. Many people were unhappy. We changed the policy to full disclosure and gave regular reports to whoever wanted them. Any issues people had disappeared and giving increased.
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3/12/17 1:24 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
I asked you a simple question in one post. I asked you if you believe every single word she writes & do you believe every single story she illustrates?
I asked for a simple YES or NO ...you didn't bother to respond. Why? Because you know for a fact there are holes in this woman's opinion & her story.


Fake news! I DID respond. I didn't use a simple yes or no because it sounds like you are trying to put words in my mouth, but this is what I said.
Quote:
I didn't come across anything in the article that stood out to me as being inauthentic, though some sources linked to were more serious than others.

You are using ad hominem attacks not only against me but against the author of the piece in the OP. You are skirting the issue of full transparency by posting salaries.
If I were to play your game, I would say, Dean, are you afraid of what people in your church would do or say if they knew your salary--a simple YES or NO. (But I'm not asking that.)
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3/12/17 1:37 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
Your issue with Furtick living in a 16,000 sq. foot home sounds like jealousy ...who cares what size his house is.


That's another thread.
(No, I'm not jealous--I've never wanted a 16,000 sq. foot home nor even one half that size.)
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3/12/17 1:42 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
I think you stuck your neck out on this thread & you think you can make a point that all pastors need to follow the model of financial transparency set forth by this author you appear to adore.


Actually I linked to a post as a springboard for discussion. You can put forth pros and cons in the discussion, hopefully.
As far as the author, I would say I admire her, not "adore." I don't always agree with her, but I thought she made a good point in this particular article.
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3/12/17 1:45 pm


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Post c6thplayer1
A simple question ;

Why should we know the salaries of Congress but not our pastors?

I find it strange and appalling that the salary of the president of the United States is made public; the salaries of the members of the Senate and the House of Representatives are made public; the salaries of every state governor are made public; but the salaries of pastors and church employees are kept confidential and top secret.
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3/12/17 2:57 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Dean , Is there a lot of displeasure in your life ?

Not at all ...why would you even think to ask that?
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3/12/17 7:44 pm


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Post Re: Dean, you are pretty hard on Bonnie! Dean Steenburgh
COGLayman wrote:
Dean I think you should lighten up a bit. I agree with Bonnie and think full disclosure is the best policy. Secrecy breeds a lack of trust. I think the lack of HQ being willing to make a full disclosure on how the TOT was used led to the funds being cut.

I really do not think some leaders get how important this is to many people to have full disclosure of how the church monies are spent. It IS important to many people.

I have been in leadership positions in non-profit organizations where there had not been full disclosure. Many people were unhappy. We changed the policy to full disclosure and gave regular reports to whoever wanted them. Any issues people had disappeared and giving increased.


Did you happen to read one of the post above where she posted a link about the author and stated & posted (paraphrased), " Dean says this about the author, she is more than I could aspire towards her & Dean thinks her attitude stinks."
And I'm the one being hard on her?
I haven't personally attacked her.
I didn't even respond to her attempt to gather others on her side, as if me having an opposing opinion about this author is wrong some how.
Different than her ...yes, but wrong, no.


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3/12/17 8:08 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
I asked you a simple question in one post. I asked you if you believe every single word she writes & do you believe every single story she illustrates?
I asked for a simple YES or NO ...you didn't bother to respond. Why? Because you know for a fact there are holes in this woman's opinion & her story.


Fake news! I DID respond. I didn't use a simple yes or no because it sounds like you are trying to put words in my mouth, but this is what I said.
Quote:
I didn't come across anything in the article that stood out to me as being inauthentic, though some sources linked to were more serious than others.

You are using ad hominem attacks not only against me but against the author of the piece in the OP. You are skirting the issue of full transparency by posting salaries.
If I were to play your game, I would say, Dean, are you afraid of what people in your church would do or say if they knew your salary--a simple YES or NO. (But I'm not asking that.)


You call that your answer in response to me asking for a simple yes or no?
I'm not attacking you bonnie but it sounds like you're getting very defensive ...why?
Not playing games here with you bonnie because I think you would only be happy with all of us pastors if we complied with your version of transparency. In my denomination, Church of God, we strive to provide as much transparency as we can. Our church provides more info to our members & attenders than our national HQ provide our GC at the General Assembly.

Not once have I suggested a lack of full disclosure, in fact I have explained how my board & I provide a thorough explanation every year regarding the finances at FCC. I'm sure our method does not measure up to your standards but I don't answer to you & I feel it wouldn't take much for a comment to be made that would suggest or possibly accuse me of wrong doing. The hints are in the air in between the lines of the discussion.
Keep in mind, I don't sign checks for payroll nor do I pay the bills. This church pays my salary determined by it's board & we have thorough finance meetings every month.
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3/12/17 8:19 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
Your issue with Furtick living in a 16,000 sq. foot home sounds like jealousy ...who cares what size his house is.


That's another thread.
(No, I'm not jealous--I've never wanted a 16,000 sq. foot home nor even one half that size.)


You're the one who brought it up first so start the thread & I'll comment over there lol


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3/12/17 8:22 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Full disclosure.

I like Bonnie and Dean and wish they would apologize to each other for any offenses, real or imagined.'

And as a good faith token, they should both share their current salaries.

Fair enough? Twisted Evil
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3/12/17 8:24 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Full disclosure.

I like Bonnie and Dean and wish they would apologize to each other for any offenses, real or imagined.'

And as a good faith token, they should both share their current salaries.

Fair enough? Twisted Evil


Fair enough!
I apologize to bonnie for any offense, real or otherwise. She is entitled to her opinion & I respect that.
Even though it sounds a bit humorous I will share my salary. My gross salary is $784 a week before taxes & I receive a housing allowance at the 1st of the month.
I do not get any retirement benefits of any kind nor does the church provide health insurance.


.
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3/12/17 8:35 pm


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Post c6thplayer1
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Full disclosure.

I like Bonnie and Dean and wish they would apologize to each other for any offenses, real or imagined.'

And as a good faith token, they should both share their current salaries.

Fair enough? Twisted Evil


Fair enough!
I apologize to bonnie for any offense, real or otherwise. She is entitled to her opinion & I respect that.
Even though it sounds a bit humorous I will share my salary. My gross salary is $784 a week before taxes & I receive a housing allowance at the 1st of the month.
I do not get any retirement benefits of any kind nor does the church provide health insurance.


.


Dean you dont have to that here. But now that you have I will be the first to say that you are underpaid as a pastor of a church your size.

Your stock just went up. Thank you for the apology to bonnie.
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3/12/17 9:14 pm


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Post More Fake News! bonnie knox
Dean, are your eyes playing tricks on you?
When I say it's another thread, I'm talking about a literal other thread! Like this one here which is where I responded to someone else bringing up that particular pastor as a model of church growth.
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=86888

So, no, in this thread about full disclosure of church salaries, I had not brought up Steve Furtick AT ALL. Please, go back and look at my responses in this thread if you don't believe me.


Dean Steenburgh wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
Your issue with Furtick living in a 16,000 sq. foot home sounds like jealousy ...who cares what size his house is.


That's another thread.
(No, I'm not jealous--I've never wanted a 16,000 sq. foot home nor even one half that size.)


You're the one who brought it up first so start the thread & I'll comment over there lol


.
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3/13/17 9:40 am


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