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"Should Members Keep Giving Money to a Church That Refuses to Disclose the Pastor's Salary?" (L)
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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
What do you gain by knowing such things?


It's not about what one individual gains by knowing the pastor's salary. (By the way, our church is transparent about the pastor's salary.)
It's about an organization which is funded by volunteer giving being transparent about what is done with the money that is given. It is about what is gained by the organization in terms of accountability.
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3/2/17 7:37 pm


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Post bonnie knox
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I don't agree with some of his antics but I do feel he has been mis-represented & usually it's church folks who can't wait to shred such ministers apart ...no wonder the world looks at christians with contempt.


Ummm, no. The world looks at contempt with televangelists who are begging for money from poor widows while living in multimillion dollar houses and flying around in private jets. I've never heard a sinner speak contemptuously of any Christian who was critical of such things.
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3/2/17 7:47 pm


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Post my responses in red bonnie knox
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
You know, I don't think I asked for your budget. But quite a ways back in this thread, I understood you to say you didn't believe it was any of the members' business what your salary was. (And you also said you were done." I frankly have NO IDEA what you mean when you say that.)
You've been quite consistent with the view point that it is no one's business what your salary is. What you've done with your numbers is reiterate that. I don't know if you think I'm dense or what, but I understand that you do not want to nor do you think you should disclose your salary.


You know bonnie, there comes a time during a discussion on most topics that we try to maintain a civil accord & maybe even go out of our way to explain ourselves.
When I read your post above I found myself thinking, 'what kind of Christian talks to a Pastor like this?

Do you ever ask yourself what kind of pastor talks to other ministers like this:
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=86142
I could list several names brotherjames has called some of us such as cynics, cessationists, nosy nit pickers (sic), thin skinned nit pickers (sic), worse than someone who has thrown literal rocks.
And this?
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=86116&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc
Do I call people names or do I just call them to account?


Pastors are men who have a unique calling on their life & the word says they are worthy of double honor for their labor in the Word & doctrine (I Tim. 5).

Don't leave out the part about the elders "who rule well."


I didn't take brotherjames partial posting of his church budget as a way to make you feel dense but you sound like you can't wait to pounce on somebody if their opinion is not shared by you. Are you sensitive about being treated as though you are dense?
It's you & c6th who can't seem to accept the fact that not all churches function the way you want them to & you both keep making comments on every poster as if we're the dense one's who don't get YOUR point ...but we do get it ...we just have a different way of going about church business & our salaries are considered private.

Have you yet read the link which makes up the entirety of the OP?

So if he felt like providing you with a few intimate details about his church budget, it appears as though he wanted you to get a little better view as to how they describe the details of their financial structure.
Your words were harsh & condescending as though he had no more to share since he said he was 'done'.

He has on more than one occasion claimed he was going to leave Acts or not be posting much longer or that he was done with a thread only to keep posting (at least once claiming he was sticking around just to annoy me). These men that you say have a unique calling and should be given double honor should have more self control than to say they are through posting when they are not. If I call that out, does that make me harsh and condescending?


He probably felt 'done' as in trying to share his opinion with you.

Were that the case, great!

We all seem to get a healthy dose of your opinion on just about every single thread that is posted, but not too many people would try to talk down to you.

It's an open forum. Opinions and criticisms are in order according to the Terms of Use, but name calling is not.

You like to use a biblical model with your life & your choices? How about the biblical principle that we are to treat God's anointed with double honor?
Do you feel like the tone of your condescending remarks were showing honor?

Why don't you stop trying to worry about my tone and look at the words I say.

His church budget shows $176,000.00 for 9 employees ...do you think there is room in that expenditure for a pastor to be "over-paid when he shares that amount with 8 other people?"

I mean correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm sure you'll do) but isn't the basis for wanting to know your pastor's salary somewhat based on whether or not YOU think he is over-paid or that he isn't "Hiding" his income?

I KNOW what my pastor makes. If you'll read the link in the OP, you'll get an idea of the basis for wanting to know the pastor's salary.

For the most part our churches are set up to where the members vote for the Pastor's Council or Board of Elders. These men have varying responsibilities one of which is to help oversee church finances. In that financial arena is the difficult discussion regarding compensation for church employees. If your church members elect a board that they trust then it is only common sense that the same board members will do what is right by determining the salary of church employees & the senior pastor.
You remind me of former members in our church who had trust issues.

This is not the first time you compared me unfavorably to someone you know personally. Please try not to do that since you don't know me personally.


We've had emergencies in the church before where members could not pay their mortgage, I didn't put their name in the annual report at the end of the year because I felt it would embarrass them. So if you were facing a huge issue & your church was able to help you, would you want the annual report to show that the Knox family received $$$ amount of help this past year to pay their bills?
I don't think you would want that known about your family & your personal financial hardship. Some things are private.

If you want to start a thread about details of a church's benevolence fund, go ahead. This thread is about pastors' salaries.

My salary is private but any individual can look at our overall budget & staff expenditure & determine for themselves that the pastor is def not over paid.


.
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3/2/17 8:31 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
What do you gain by knowing such things?


It's not about what one individual gains by knowing the pastor's salary. (By the way, our church is transparent about the pastor's salary.)
It's about an organization which is funded by volunteer giving being transparent about what is done with the money that is given. It is about what is gained by the organization in terms of accountability.


We are transparent as well but we use discretion because apparently there are some folks who can't handle knowing the actually dollar amount their pastor receives ...again ...if it's not about knowing the pastor's salary (your words) then why is his salary attached to your definition of transparency?
I mean why can't the financial report be transparent w/out everybody knowing how much the pastor earns? You see ...it is about people just want to be nosey & they tell themselves that their pastor makes up a financial report that shows his salary & therefore they are transparent.

I'm ever more grateful that my church doesn't expect me to perform in order to prove that we operate in a transparent model. They trust their board & they trust this pastor to not be greedy & ridiculous with the finances.

Always keep in mind bonnie that there is only so much money that comes in & every church has huge expenses ...your local church nowadays rarely has the option to over pay their humble pastor. Ask your pastor how much the church spends in all of their insurance coverage combined; our's is enough to create full time positions in ministry if we didn't have to pay it.


.
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3/2/17 8:37 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
We are transparent as well but we use discretion because apparently there are some folks who can't handle knowing the actually dollar amount their pastor receives ...again ...if it's not about knowing the pastor's salary (your words) then why is his salary attached to your definition of transparency?
I mean why can't the financial report be transparent w/out everybody knowing how much the pastor earns? You see ...it is about people just want to be nosey & they tell themselves that their pastor makes up a financial report that shows his salary & therefore they are transparent.


No, it's not about nosiness; read the link in the OP.
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3/2/17 8:42 pm


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Post First of all bonnie i did read the "Hit Job" link Dean Steenburgh
So let me start by asking, do you believe everything this author said & accept his accounting as factual in every example & story he told?
Simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice, because if you do then we're at that place where you go your way & I go mine.

bonnie knox wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
You know, I don't think I asked for your budget. But quite a ways back in this thread, I understood you to say you didn't believe it was any of the members' business what your salary was. (And you also said you were done." I frankly have NO IDEA what you mean when you say that.)
You've been quite consistent with the view point that it is no one's business what your salary is. What you've done with your numbers is reiterate that. I don't know if you think I'm dense or what, but I understand that you do not want to nor do you think you should disclose your salary.


You know bonnie, there comes a time during a discussion on most topics that we try to maintain a civil accord & maybe even go out of our way to explain ourselves.
When I read your post above I found myself thinking, 'what kind of Christian talks to a Pastor like this?

Do you ever ask yourself what kind of pastor talks to other ministers like this:
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=86142
I could list several names brotherjames has called some of us such as cynics, cessationists, nosy nit pickers (sic), thin skinned nit pickers (sic), worse than someone who has thrown literal rocks.
And this?
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=86116&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc
Do I call people names or do I just call them to account?

So in your opinion if he calls you names then you are all fired up & you have to correct him? What happened to just explaining to him word for word why his characterization of you is incorrect? If he's supposedly taken the low road why do you follow suit?

Pastors are men who have a unique calling on their life & the word says they are worthy of double honor for their labor in the Word & doctrine (I Tim. 5).

Don't leave out the part about the elders "who rule well."

The article is only talking about pastors so I purposely omitted.


So if he felt like providing you with a few intimate details about his church budget, it appears as though he wanted you to get a little better view as to how they describe the details of their financial structure.
Your words were harsh & condescending as though he had no more to share since he said he was 'done'.

He has on more than one occasion claimed he was going to leave Acts or not be posting much longer or that he was done with a thread only to keep posting (at least once claiming he was sticking around just to annoy me). These men that you say have a unique calling and should be given double honor should have more self control than to say they are through posting when they are not. If I call that out, does that make me harsh and condescending?
YES it does, it's a free board to discuss opinions & to criticize, remember?. You shouldn't take it so personal just because he claims he's leaving - so if they have better self control you won't call them out ...on what???? You do love to call people out bonnie ...it's in your typing DNA lol

We all seem to get a healthy dose of your opinion on just about every single thread that is posted, but not too many people would try to talk down to you.

It's an open forum. Opinions and criticisms are in order according to the Terms of Use, but name calling is not.
I'll give you the name calling issue but are we talking about insults here? I mean he isn't violating the rules of the board in terms of the spirit of the actual conduct. There is a difference between calling you a name (insult) & telling you you're anti-Wof ...actually sounds more like his opinion.
Are you anti Word of Faith?

You like to use a biblical model with your life & your choices? How about the biblical principle that we are to treat God's anointed with double honor?
Do you feel like the tone of your condescending remarks were showing honor?

Why don't you stop trying to worry about my tone and look at the words I say.
Your words carry tones when you use words in capitals. You also know when you're typing what you mean to say with a little attitude ...be honest we all do it.

His church budget shows $176,000.00 for 9 employees ...do you think there is room in that expenditure for a pastor to be "over-paid when he shares that amount with 8 other people?"

I mean correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm sure you'll do) but isn't the basis for wanting to know your pastor's salary somewhat based on whether or not YOU think he is over-paid or that he isn't "Hiding" his income?

I KNOW what my pastor makes. If you'll read the link in the OP, you'll get an idea of the basis for wanting to know the pastor's salary.
Again, as I've already said I did read the article, some of it the other day & I read the rest recently. You still didn't answer my question regarding bj budget & 9 people sharing $176K - far cry from the OP & his fascination on Young, Furtick & getting mobbed if you ask for details from your own church.
Fortunately I have already stated that we allow any member in good standing full access if they ask for it. In all these years I've only been asked 3 times to open the books. The worst one was a millionaire who joined our church & promised to give hundreds of thousands & in fact even went as far as to ask what would be the best way to allocate the funds. Just before he was to give the big check (the 1st time) he wanted to see the books cause he heard the staff was under paid (big huge laugh there) & according to his own critique all the books were in perfect order. The following year he decided his wife wasn't in love with him & he needed to divorce her ...what a joke!


For the most part our churches are set up to where the members vote for the Pastor's Council or Board of Elders. These men have varying responsibilities one of which is to help oversee church finances. In that financial arena is the difficult discussion regarding compensation for church employees. If your church members elect a board that they trust then it is only common sense that the same board members will do what is right by determining the salary of church employees & the senior pastor.
You remind me of former members in our church who had trust issues.

This is not the first time you compared me unfavorably to someone you know personally. Please try not to do that since you don't know me personally.

And again you skirted the comment about the church voting for trustworthy elders. Like you said bonnie, I can't use your tone so I only have your words! In the 40 years I've been a pastor I have had people who use your exact words in my church many time & unfortunately they create division amongst the members because their is a problem often times with narcissism ...not calling you a name just bearing out a 40 year trend.

We've had emergencies in the church before where members could not pay their mortgage, I didn't put their name in the annual report at the end of the year because I felt it would embarrass them. So if you were facing a huge issue & your church was able to help you, would you want the annual report to show that the Knox family received $$$ amount of help this past year to pay their bills?
I don't think you would want that known about your family & your personal financial hardship. Some things are private.
If you want to start a thread about details of a church's benevolence fund, go ahead. This thread is about pastors' salaries.
Once again you're avoiding a direct question & skirting the issue at hand.


.



The OP is flawed because it tries to lump everybody into one big under-performing over-paid church balance sheet & you're supposed to be treated like a 3rd class citizen if you ask your pastor for clarification regarding salaries.
I don't have an issue sharing mine with members in good standing but don't be shocked if I ask you what your salary is also.

And just for the sake of it all,
As a CoG Bishop who has access to Cleveland's financial info, I have to sign off on a non-disclosure that I will not share or reproduce in any form the information I learn by these reports. Here it is in black & white & I guarantee you that my denominational leaders are not trying to pull something on anybody & they're not trying to hide anything as the OP suggested.



.
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3/2/17 10:05 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Dean, you've asked a lot of questions and said I'm skirting the issue. I could answer those questions, but I doubt it's going to advance the dialogue. It would probably just annoy you even more.
For example, I don't know how I would feel about the church helping me out and then disclosing it all. If it were, for example, a hospital bill, I can't imagine having a problem with disclosing the exact amount. If it were to bail a close relative out of jail, I might be more embarrassed about the amount, but who knows since it's entirely hypothetical scenario that I've never been in and not related to the thread topic. As the saying goes, I don't know how I would react since I haven't been there, but if it ever becomes a big issue for transparency in the church, I'll try to give it some thought.
As to brotherjames and his staff, I can't say if he's overpaid since I don't know how much of the salary is his and how much is his staff's, lol.
Cut the junk about me taking the low road. I have not mischaracterized brotherjames the way he has mischaracterized and name called other posters. Show me where I have. And calling someone to account is not the low road. Please!
But maybe it's progress for you to admit he's taken the low road, lol.
Dean, the "double honor" you are referring to in 1 Timothy 5:17 is about the elders who rule well. So, if you want to bring up the double honor, you have to bring up the first part--the elders who rule well.
Quote:
I'll give you the name calling issue but are we talking about insults here? I mean he isn't violating the rules of the board in terms of the spirit of the actual conduct. There is a difference between calling you a name (insult) & telling you you're anti-Wof ...actually sounds more like his opinion.

Brotherjames claims he doesn't agree with the entire Word of Faith doctrine, himself. But he most certainly didn't stop there in describing fellow posters. When you call someone a cessationist and a cynic and a deep dark doubter and a nosy nit picker (sic), that's way beyond saying someone doesn't adhere to Word of Faith doctrine.
If he had better self control and actually left when he said he would, I wouldn't have to call him out on anything, then! See how nicely that works?
I'm not trying to disguise what I've said or how I've said it, but I get a little sick of you trying to tell me how I meant it and who I remind you of who has a supposedly similar attitude.
The question about trustworthy elders is a red herring. They could be a panel of yes men selected by the pastor or they could be honest but inept or they could be perfectly capable and perfectly honest. I don't see saying the elders are trustworthy as a reason not to have full transparency.
Stop comparing me to people in your past. I'm not them.
As far as the article, I don't know why you keep saying "he" when you refer to the author. The author of the article is a "she" with an MBA. I didn't come across anything in the article that stood out to me as being inauthentic, though some sources linked to were more serious than others.
Stop saying I'm skirting issues. I'm trying to keep this focused. You can bring up all kinds of questions and demand that I answer. I might or might not answer them depending on whether or not I think they're relevant. If I want to, I might answer an irrelevant question, but don't think that just because you ask a question, I'm going to feel compelled to answer.
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3/2/17 11:33 pm


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Post Dean brotherjames
I appreciate the support. Bonnie and I go way back. She has issues with me and I suppose I egg her on a bit. We had this very discussion a few years ago. You were right when I said I was done, I meant with this thread as you rightly suspected. I have threatened to leave in the past and because I haven't Bonnie somehow thinks I'm a liar. I'll go eventually. For the record, my annual income as Sr. Pastor is $200 per month. I took a major, major cut a number of years ago to facilitate taking on more staff so we could grow to our next level. I have other income and don't depend on the church at this time. In the eighties I worked for a major Corp and was making 6 figures a yr then. And have invested well. My church has no idea what I make nor do they need to know. Nor their business. Pastors should be well paid not subjected to the overwhelming scrutiny and suspicion which Bonnie and others emulate. The OP deals with the big boys but it is hardlt fair to lump the average pastors in this world to those standards and accusations.

I left big money to pursue God's calling but my income is my business and my Board's. That's how we operate. Not wrong, not un-transparent just different.

As to her attacks at my "name calling (sic) (I saw that evidently nit-picking was the correct descriptive)
You were correct. It's my opinion as to hers and others on this Board regarding their opinions on WOF et al.
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3/3/17 10:12 am


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Post c6thplayer1
Quote:
It's you & c6th who can't seem to accept the fact that not all churches function the way you want them to & you both keep making comments on every poster as if we're the dense one's who don't get YOUR point ...but we do get it ...we just have a different way of going about church business & our salaries are considered private.


Hey , I could care less if you elect to hid your salaries. In my opinion it is a shame. Also Your reading something into my post thats not there. In no way do I think those reading the post are dense or just cant comprehend my post.
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3/3/17 10:30 am


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Post c6thplayer1
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
c6thplayer1 wrote:
Dean , how do you feel about Benny Hinn , Copeland etc. Lumping their salaries into one category of the entire organization. Regardless whether you give to them or not. Do you see anything wrong with that? And what is your opinion of them receiving millions in compensation?


First of all I don't know for sure that they lump their salaries into one category. Do you have some sort of diagram or chart that shows this as a fact?
Funny that you ask this because I have met Benny & found him to be quite interesting. I don't agree with some of his antics but I do feel he has been mis-represented & usually it's church folks who can't wait to shred such ministers apart ...no wonder the world looks at christians with contempt.
I do not give to any of these tele-evangelist but not because I don't trust them. We focus our giving towards missions & mission projects.
I don't know the salary of pastors from most of our larger churches & I'm fine with that.
I don't know the salary of huge mega churches & I'm fine with that.
My daughter & her husband attend a church in San Diego where they serve on staff full time & she tells me they don't know the salary of their lead pastor. They see the same annual report that all the members see & the staff budget is one portion of the overall budget & it's split among about 330 employees. She says she has never even thought to ask what the lead pastors salary is because its private & personal.
What do you gain by knowing such things?


.



Well as I said before , I could care less how you administer your church.
Let me ask you this;

Why do reputable charitable organizations such as the Red Cross and others publish their salaries?

If you answer this honestly then you will find your answer as to why salaries should be published.
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3/3/17 10:34 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
You were right when I said I was done, I meant with this thread as you rightly suspected.


That would have been what I thought, too, if anyone else had said it, but you obviously weren't through with the thread just as you weren't done with the forum. Therefore, I said I had NO IDEA what you meant. Dean apparently didn't like my capitals.
Essentially, it means nothing if you say you are done with something, then decide to post more.
And actually, Dean didn't say he thought you were done with the thread, he said
Quote:
He probably felt 'done' as in trying to share his opinion with you.


As far as the name calling--having the opinion that someone is a cessationist does not give you justification for saying he is, especially when he demonstrably is not. The use of "nosy nitpicker," "deep dark doubter," and saying that I am "worse than someone who has thrown literal rocks at him" is against the terms of use of this board. It is also unbecoming of a minister of the gospel.
You can go back through this thread. You and Dean have disagreed with my viewpoint, but it wasn't enough to respectfully disagree. There are lots of aspersions cast on the motives of people who believe in full financial transparency. It's been insinuated that people who believe in full financial transparency are divisive, controlling, nosy, petty, and on and on.
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3/3/17 10:41 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
My church has no idea what I make nor do they need to know. Nor their business. Pastors should be well paid not subjected to the overwhelming scrutiny and suspicion which Bonnie and others emulate


I don't think I've ever suggested that a pastor should reveal a salary he makes that is unrelated to the church. What we are discussing here is the money he makes through the church (which would include conferences and book sales if those result from his position as pastor).
My scrutiny is overwhelming? That's funny.
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3/3/17 10:54 am


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Post c6thplayer1
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
My church has no idea what I make nor do they need to know. Nor their business. Pastors should be well paid not subjected to the overwhelming scrutiny and suspicion which Bonnie and others emulate


I don't think I've ever suggested that a pastor should reveal a salary he makes that is unrelated to the church. What we are discussing here is the money he makes through the church (which would include conferences and book sales if those result from his position as pastor).
My scrutiny is overwhelming? That's funny.


Might as well give up Bonnie. Heres a Court ruling based on Scientology


Quote:
Court Rules Churches Can Continue To Conceal Financial Information

Many years after Hubbard's casual remark, not-for-profits in the United States were subjected to fairly strict financial transparency rules enforced by the IRS through a requirement of filing Form 990, which includes, among other things, disclosure of the salaries of the highest paid employees. 990s are easily accessed on guidestar.org. Don't expect to find, the salary of Scientology leader David Miscavige on guidestar.org , though. Churches are exempt from filing Form 990.
Most charities are subject to some level of transparency, but not churches. That leaves it up to the members to demand transparency. If you meet resistance from the leadership, maybe you might consider that rather than a sheep who is being fed, you are one that is being shorn



Maybe some want to model their selves after Hubbard and Miscavige.

Of course we all know the bible says nothing about transparency. Rolling Eyes

2 cor 8
19 What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help. 20 We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. 21 For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
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3/3/17 4:11 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
All govt employees in florida's salaries are published. This hiding salaries because someone might have a problem with it is fear...which I dont think Jesus is in favor of.

..I'm worth a lot more than I am paid...and I will be happy to tell anyone that asks. I have never backed in to get my paycheck...and I am sad that a minister feels he should do so.

If all you guys would do it, then it would expose the Creflo,dollars and copelands of the world.

My pastor published how,much he made (over 100,000) but we couldn't keep him from giving 60-70% back each year because he,said he didnt need it. Needless to say, no one begrudged any money we gave him because we knew he would only keep in his hand what he and his family needed. Thats where all churches should be.
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3/3/17 5:36 pm


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Post Full disclosure is the best policy COGLayman
The church I attend discloses each year what the pastors are paid. The Sr. pastor makes a good salary and benefits. I have not heard anyone question the salary. I heard one person saying he believes the pastor should be paid more.

Secrecy breeds mistrust. Pastor don't must their members. Members don't trust their Pastor.

I left a church once because the pastor refused to disclose what happened to the funds the church received. I stopped giving. I had attended for some time and told him basically I was not going to continue to give until he gave a report. I had been very generous. This was after I asked for it a couple of times over several years without success. He basically refused and I decided it was time to move on.

Every church or non-profit should have a full disclosure policy, period.
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3/5/17 10:47 pm


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Post Re: Full disclosure is the best policy Cojak
COGLayman wrote:
...

Every church or non-profit should have a full disclosure policy, period.


I agree and I think it should be practiced from the top down. JMHO

I have never left a church for that reason, but if faced with NOT KNOWING after awhile I might move on. Embarassed
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3/5/17 11:26 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Dean, you've asked a lot of questions and said I'm skirting the issue. I could answer those questions, but I doubt it's going to advance the dialogue. It would probably just annoy you even more.
For example, I don't know how I would feel about the church helping me out and then disclosing it all. If it were, for example, a hospital bill, I can't imagine having a problem with disclosing the exact amount. If it were to bail a close relative out of jail, I might be more embarrassed about the amount, but who knows since it's entirely hypothetical scenario that I've never been in and not related to the thread topic. As the saying goes, I don't know how I would react since I haven't been there, but if it ever becomes a big issue for transparency in the church, I'll try to give it some thought.

(Well your answers are kinda close to those a lot of pastors would give. We minister to a broad base of people & usually it seems we have a disproportionate number of those who don't make a lot of money. When they hear that the pastor makes $3,500 a month plus he lives in a parsonage & the church covers the utilities, it creates a scenario that the members don't have to face but the pastor does ...all in the name of your type of transparency. We're not the Red Cross, they are a public non-profit institution whose sole purpose is to help during crisis & they exist by soliciting funds. A church exists to help win souls to the kingdom & we offer an opportunity for people to give in a joyful spirit of free will offerings & tithe. Government salaries are mandated by our own laws to be made public & the public has no say so as to whether or not the salary is too high. Just let a pastor earn a salary increase & sometimes a small church will do all they can to keep the pastor as poor as possible. Have you ever one time went to your board members at your church & asked them to review the pastor's compensation & to offer him a generous salary increase? I can almost guess your response to that question.)

As to brotherjames and his staff, I can't say if he's overpaid since I don't know how much of the salary is his and how much is his staff's, lol.
(Really? So, you think 4 F/T salaries & 5 P/T salaries can allow for him to STILL be overpaid? Is this your TRUE concern here bonnie that he could possibly be over paid? Fortunately & unfortunately he told us his salary. He works hard to serve God & the people of his church for $200 a month ...wow!!! Good thing he made wise investments over the years so that he wouldn't have to worry about the tight wads holding up his income over their divine worry to know the intimate details about the pastor's salary.)
(Some of you sound like you should join the mormons cause they make everybody's salary public knowledge & you have to pay your tithe based on your income tax records sent in to the IRS. My wife worked for a mormon doctor for 15 years & every year she had to send them a copy of his return along with a big fat tithe check ...I think some of you should try that in your church all in the name of transparency.)

Cut the junk about me taking the low road. I have not mischaracterized brotherjames the way he has mischaracterized and name called other posters. Show me where I have. And calling someone to account is not the low road. Please!
(Your idea of calling someone to account reminds me of the low road in the way you word it & the way you seem to justify it with your own version of transparency, as if your transparency is of a higher quality. I told you how our church demonstrates transparency & you don't seem to like the version my pastor's council & clerk do it.)


Dean, the "double honor" you are referring to in 1 Timothy 5:17 is about the elders who rule well. So, if you want to bring up the double honor, you have to bring up the first part--the elders who rule well.
Verse 17: (The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching).
How many elders in your church do the bulk amount of preaching/teaching?


The question about trustworthy elders is a red herring. They could be a panel of yes men selected by the pastor or they could be honest but inept or they could be perfectly capable and perfectly honest. I don't see saying the elders are trustworthy as a reason not to have full transparency.
(I don't select my board ...my church elects them from a list of men & women who meet the criteria as outlined by the minutes of our GA.)

Stop comparing me to people in your past. I'm not them.
(I only compare you to them for the simple reason that for every attender I've ever dealt with that exhibits trust issues, their character is always the same in every church & you remind me of that type of character.)

As far as the article, I don't know why you keep saying "he" when you refer to the author. The author of the article is a "she" with an MBA. I didn't come across anything in the article that stood out to me as being inauthentic, though some sources linked to were more serious than others.
(I didn't look at the name of the author I simply read the whole piece & I smell a bad attitude in her writing & I'm not shocked you don't. When I go to worship at a new church while out of town I don't look for the imperfections. When I go to worship my heart is there as an instrument of praise, I'm sure if I stick around long enough & "share" my thoughts with others I will eventually find a few shadow areas where the transparency has worn off. I'm not called to examine other churches or their ministries, I'm called to minister the word in as many effective ways as possible & to use the tools & help of others as God lends His resources. I have no desire to displease my Savior or to hide stuff from Him, hence why I have a board & 7 other men with CoG credentials to help steer us in the right direction.)

Stop saying I'm skirting issues. I'm trying to keep this focused. You can bring up all kinds of questions and demand that I answer. I might or might not answer them depending on whether or not I think they're relevant. If I want to, I might answer an irrelevant question, but don't think that just because you ask a question, I'm going to feel compelled to answer.

Skirting the issue had everything to do with asking you how you would handle it if the local church knew how you were helped during a time of crisis. You kinda answered it above. In your honest opinion you don't know how you would like it if the church knew about your personal needs being made known. And I feel the same way about my personal income. We show our fine members the overall dollar figure for salary information but I'm not going to ask the board to break that down into smaller bite sizes so everybody can see the personal side of our staff's income.
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3/11/17 4:07 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Dean, the lady who posted the article doesn't had the bad attitude you think she does. You should look at her bio on her website. She's a pretty level-headed and generous person.
Neither do I have the attitude that you apparently think I have.
Also, your notion that people who say they pay in cash is hogwash is interesting. I helped count the money at our church for 7 years and every week there was a generous wad of cash that was easily enough to be someone's tithes. I never knew who it was. Maybe it's different here than in your church.
In the churches I grew up in, I doubt the pastor made very much, but at the Baptist church, we did at one point vote for him to go full time so that he could quit his job at the mill. I was ignorant enough at the time I thought "full time" meant we got to keep him forever. I loved him so I was all for that. But even when it was explained to me, I still thought it was a grand idea.
No, if the church helps me financially, I'm fine with full disclosure.
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3/11/17 7:03 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
You like to use a biblical model with your life & your choices? How about the biblical principle that we are to treat God's anointed with double honor?
Do you feel like the tone of your condescending remarks were showing honor?


Dean, this is what I'm talking about. YOU call my remarks condescending and then ask if my remarks were showing honor.
My remarks have not been inappropriate.
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3/11/17 7:50 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
You like to use a biblical model with your life & your choices? How about the biblical principle that we are to treat God's anointed with double honor?
Do you feel like the tone of your condescending remarks were showing honor?


Dean, this is what I'm talking about. YOU call my remarks condescending and then ask if my remarks were showing honor.
My remarks have not been inappropriate.

bonnie, for anybody to look at their own remarks they will always take their own side haha.
When you first mentioned my remark your first defense was that he was the one guilty of name calling ...very akin to our kids ministry where they use the same logic ...not calling you a child just using the kids for the analogy.
You may not see it but your comments often come across as crass & very snippy.
Just because you're on a talk board doesn't mean we lower the bar & treat people as we want to treat them.


.
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3/11/17 8:40 pm


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