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Da Sheik |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | There really is no good reason to try to keep any church business secret. If anything, Christian organizations should be the most willing of all to be fully transparent. |
I agree. I think the world already has a very cynical view of the Church as it relates to preachers, money, and abuse. Why add fuel to the fire?
I used to be on staff with another pastor who believed everyone should be kept in the dark. There were never any financial reports disclosed to anyone (including me, his associate!). He had the clerk sworn to secrecy as well. When this pastor finally left, I had a long talk with the clerk and found out there were people (aforementioned pastor's family members) who were on the payroll and no one was aware. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
2/23/17 3:50 pm
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Resident Skeptic |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | Bonnie,
Should they? |
Only if "the message of the cross" is preached from their pulpit.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
2/23/17 8:02 pm
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| I have found |
Ernie Long |
that most people in church don't care about the pastor's salary. The one's that raise this question the most are the ones who want to control the pastor.
Church is the one place where most who have no control in the workplace can have control without any qualifications, other than they are popular or have family in the church.
Anyone who attends our church on a regular basis can tell you exactly what I am paid, they voted what to pay me... but, I took a cut several months a few months ago and no one knows about it other than my family and our clerk.
What I want to know is how many churches running 100 or less are paying their pastor what the minutes say they should be paid, AND the benefits the minutes also state that churches are to provide for their pastor? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
2/25/17 12:04 pm
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Charles Page |
The Church should be reported to the IRS and let them sort out the possibility of violations!
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Sanctification is subsequent to the new birth |
Friendly Face
Posts: 346
2/25/17 1:51 pm
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Cojak |
| Charles Page wrote: | | The Church should be reported to the IRS and let them sort out the possibility of violations! |
 on any government agency. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24278
2/25/17 2:39 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | Just put in cash and make sure he knows about it.
But really , I would not give very much if any at all if the salaries were secret. There are to many other churches that are honest and above board to live in that kind of abuse. |
So is it safe to say that the obedience of your giving is directly tied to whether or not you know the salary of the pastor?
If I had members who believed like this I would probably require knowledge of each of their salaries so I could determine if they are giving appropriately since their obedient giving is based on statistical inquiries.
For the record, I disclose the total amount of salaries at FCC every January but I don't disclose each individual salary amounts publicly. We do however discuss each salary in board meetings once a year.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 6:08 pm
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| Which is exactly as we do Dean |
brotherjames |
but Bonnie and almost all the posters on this thread disagree. I can tell you that the ones disagreeing do NOT pastor for the most part.
| Quote: | Church is the one place where most who have no control in the workplace can have control without any qualifications, other than they are popular or have family in the church.
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The above is part of the problem, mostly in smaller churches but it extends to some larger ones as well. One of the issues we have dealt with in surveying churches regarding salary policies is this idea of Management vs Labor. In the NE and upper Midwest (Oh, Mich especially) the pastor is perceived as mgmt (white collar) while the bulk of the congregation has tended to be more working class/blue collar - as a result, sometimes the workers finally see a way to stick it to the "boss man" and try to control the pastor (mgmt). This is often evidenced by salary decisions and is manifested by the "need to know" salary specifics and similar things. Down South, this situation removed the union but still is expressed similarly. Once a church reaches a size above 500 or so it usually dies down especially if the church is in a city or larger town. Rural churches seem to evidence the problems more often. See the above quote where certain long time families tend to run the church (or try to).
If a church hits 1000 or so in attendance, salaries no longer seem to be issues and if they are, the people with the problem move on and are replaced fairly quickly. Not being cynical or callous, just noting what we have experienced. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/25/17 6:52 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
[quote="Dean Steenburgh"] | c6thplayer1 wrote: | Just put in cash and make sure he knows about it.
But really , I would not give very much if any at all if the salaries were secret. There are to many other churches that are honest and above board to live in that kind of abuse. |
| Quote: | So is it safe to say that the obedience of your giving is directly tied to whether or not you know the salary of the pastor?
If I had members who believed like this I would probably require knowledge of each of their salaries so I could determine if they are giving appropriately since their obedient giving is based on statistical inquiries.
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Absolutely not. But I can see from your response that you wouldnt like it if members hid what they give. My position is that if its ok for pastors or board members to disguise their salaries then it should be ok for members to do the same.
| Quote: |
For the record, I disclose the total amount of salaries at FCC every January but I don't disclose each individual salary amounts publicly. We do however discuss each salary in board meetings once a year. |
If you want to practice this type of behavior then go for it. When i see this , it really makes me glad we have the pastor and board members that we have. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/25/17 7:02 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
I whole heartedly agree with you brotherjames.
A friend of mine here in Modesto is the pastor of the big A/G & I happen to know his salary. In fact, 10 years ago his salary at that time was about 10X my current salary now. Almost nobody in the church knows his salary outside of his official board & I doubt many would complain because he is so well loved.
Your assessment of the small church/small community is accurate. I have had interviews in the past with small town mid-size churches & the topic of the compensation package is always a sticky subject. However, I was offered a chance to submit my resume to a large A/G church recently & the subject of the compensation was almost last on the list & in fact the compensation was definitely big city worthy 
I've often noticed these 40 years in ministry that church members whose subject and/or target is to focus on the minors, often times belong to churches that will most likely never grow beyond where they currently exist. You cannot hen peck your way to evangelism & discipleship because your true nature will eventually come to the surface. A pastor's life is rarely private but it's nice to know that for some of us at least our income has some benefits of privacy.
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_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 7:11 pm
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| Well, Glen is in a little bigger church than me |
brotherjames |
| and you and he deserves whatever he gets. The House (Calvary) is an awesome church. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/25/17 7:25 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
[quote="c6thplayer1"] | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | Just put in cash and make sure he knows about it.
But really , I would not give very much if any at all if the salaries were secret. There are to many other churches that are honest and above board to live in that kind of abuse. |
| Quote: | So is it safe to say that the obedience of your giving is directly tied to whether or not you know the salary of the pastor?
If I had members who believed like this I would probably require knowledge of each of their salaries so I could determine if they are giving appropriately since their obedient giving is based on statistical inquiries.
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Absolutely not. But I can see from your response that you wouldnt like it if members hid what they give. My position is that if its ok for pastors or board members to disguise their salaries then it should be ok for members to do the same.
| Quote: |
For the record, I disclose the total amount of salaries at FCC every January but I don't disclose each individual salary amounts publicly. We do however discuss each salary in board meetings once a year. |
If you want to practice this type of behavior then go for it. When i see this , it really makes me glad we have the pastor and board members that we have. |
And that is why you need to stay put!
If my church demanded to know my salary I would turn that request over to the board & let them determine whether or not it should become public knowledge.
Do you disclose publicly to all people whether you know them or not what your salary is?
There is a certain amount of privacy that a minister deserves & if your trust for that minister is based on him disclosing his personal finances then you don't have a genuine trust for him at all. You base your trust on him performing an act for you. Do you give sacrificially in accordance to God's word? Or do you slip a few bucks in the plate & give the old excuse, 'God knows what I give & thats good enough for me?'
Every year I have different people say to me, 'pastor we usually just give our tithe or offering in the plate w/out using an envlope because that is what we feel God wants us to do.' To which I say, "HOG WASH!"
We don't have enough loose cash in the plate to be the equivalent amount of tithe for multiple families unless each of your tithe is less than an average of about $12 per family.
The only place members look to hide their money if with God.
We share our income info with the bank & make ourselves appear to be flushed with cash when it's time to buy a home, car or business.
But as soon as a pastor mentions giving there are some attenders who shrivel up & act like they are as poor as a church mouse.
I love to say this at times, "We are a people of faith who give God total control over the future destination of our soul but we cannot trust the same God with the future of our income when we refuse to give in obedience."
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 7:25 pm
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| Re: Well, Glen is in a little bigger church than me |
Dean Steenburgh |
| brotherjames wrote: | | and you and he deserves whatever he gets. The House (Calvary) is an awesome church. |
Good one 
He really is a good guy & is well over by the whole community.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 7:27 pm
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| Here you go Dean |
brotherjames |
A well-worn one dollar bill and a similarly distressed twenty dollar bill arrived at a Federal Reserve Bank to be retired. As they moved along the conveyor belt to be burned, they struck up a conversation.
The twenty dollar bill reminisced about its travels all over the county. "I've had a pretty good life," the twenty proclaimed. "Why I've been to Las Vegas and Atlantic City, the finest restaurants in New York, performances on Broadway, and even a cruise to the Caribbean."
"Wow!" said the one dollar bill. "You've really had an exciting life!"
"So tell me," says the twenty, "where have you been throughout your lifetime?"
The one dollar bill replies, "Oh, I've been to the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, the Lutheran Church ...."
The twenty dollar bill interrupts, "What's a church?" |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 935
2/25/17 7:29 pm
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| Re: Here you go Dean |
Dean Steenburgh |
| brotherjames wrote: | A well-worn one dollar bill and a similarly distressed twenty dollar bill arrived at a Federal Reserve Bank to be retired. As they moved along the conveyor belt to be burned, they struck up a conversation.
The twenty dollar bill reminisced about its travels all over the county. "I've had a pretty good life," the twenty proclaimed. "Why I've been to Las Vegas and Atlantic City, the finest restaurants in New York, performances on Broadway, and even a cruise to the Caribbean."
"Wow!" said the one dollar bill. "You've really had an exciting life!"
"So tell me," says the twenty, "where have you been throughout your lifetime?"
The one dollar bill replies, "Oh, I've been to the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, the Lutheran Church ...."
The twenty dollar bill interrupts, "What's a church?" |
Hahahahaha I've heard one very similar to that but it's been awhile lol
Nothing like a truthful parable to get the point across hahaha
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 7:37 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
[quote="Dean Steenburgh"] | c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Dean Steenburgh wrote: | | c6thplayer1 wrote: | Just put in cash and make sure he knows about it.
But really , I would not give very much if any at all if the salaries were secret. There are to many other churches that are honest and above board to live in that kind of abuse. |
| Quote: | So is it safe to say that the obedience of your giving is directly tied to whether or not you know the salary of the pastor?
If I had members who believed like this I would probably require knowledge of each of their salaries so I could determine if they are giving appropriately since their obedient giving is based on statistical inquiries.
|
Absolutely not. But I can see from your response that you wouldnt like it if members hid what they give. My position is that if its ok for pastors or board members to disguise their salaries then it should be ok for members to do the same.
| Quote: |
For the record, I disclose the total amount of salaries at FCC every January but I don't disclose each individual salary amounts publicly. We do however discuss each salary in board meetings once a year. |
If you want to practice this type of behavior then go for it. When i see this , it really makes me glad we have the pastor and board members that we have. |
And that is why you need to stay put!
If my church demanded to know my salary I would turn that request over to the board & let them determine whether or not it should become public knowledge.
Do you disclose publicly to all people whether you know them or not what your salary is?
There is a certain amount of privacy that a minister deserves & if your trust for that minister is based on him disclosing his personal finances then you don't have a genuine trust for him at all. You base your trust on him performing an act for you. Do you give sacrificially in accordance to God's word? Or do you slip a few bucks in the plate & give the old excuse, 'God knows what I give & thats good enough for me?'
Every year I have different people say to me, 'pastor we usually just give our tithe or offering in the plate w/out using an envlope because that is what we feel God wants us to do.' To which I say, "HOG WASH!"
We don't have enough loose cash in the plate to be the equivalent amount of tithe for multiple families unless each of your tithe is less than an average of about $12 per family.
The only place members look to hide their money if with God.
We share our income info with the bank & make ourselves appear to be flushed with cash when it's time to buy a home, car or business.
But as soon as a pastor mentions giving there are some attenders who shrivel up & act like they are as poor as a church mouse.
I love to say this at times, "We are a people of faith who give God total control over the future destination of our soul but we cannot trust the same God with the future of our income when we refuse to give in obedience."
. |
| Quote: | | And that is why you need to stay put! |
I will always stay where honesty prevails.
| Quote: | | If my church demanded to know my salary I would turn that request over to the board & let them determine whether or not it should become public knowledge. |
Sounds like a cop out to me.
| Quote: | | Do you disclose publicly to all people whether you know them or not what your salary is? |
If I were a 501C3 , a pastor , or a organization that people give to then Yes I would.
| Quote: | | There is a certain amount of privacy that a minister deserves & if your trust for that minister is based on him disclosing his personal finances then you don't have a genuine trust for him at all |
And theres a certain amount of information that a pastor should give out when dealing with others monies. And if a minister elects to hide or disguise certain aspects of their ministry then you are correct , I dont trust him or her.
| Quote: | | You base your trust on him performing an act for you |
Looks like I wouldnt have to worry about you performing one act.
| Quote: | | Do you give sacrificially in accordance to God's word? Or do you slip a few bucks in the plate & give the old excuse, 'God knows what I give & thats good enough for me?' |
I am an honest person. I pay my tithes regularly.
| Quote: | Every year I have different people say to me, 'pastor we usually just give our tithe or offering in the plate w/out using an envlope because that is what we feel God wants us to do.' To which I say, "HOG WASH!"
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Once again you dont like it when other practice what you practice.
| Quote: |
I love to say this at times, "We are a people of faith who give God total control over the future destination of our soul but we cannot trust the same God with the future of our income when we refuse to give in obedience." |
It not about trusting God with the income , its about trusting some pastors. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/25/17 7:43 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
c6th you are about as out there as any I've ever seen & I'm glad you're happy with your church.
It's humorous to me that my comment regarding the sanctity of my church board is considered a 'cop out' by you. Every time I have a conversation with someone who talks like you I find that they are struggling with a spiritual issue somewhere in their own life. I'll leave that with you.
For over 100 years nobody knew the info regarding the finances & salaries of CoG officials & to some degree we still don't, but I'm ok with that because I trust these dear men who have accepted a call on their life & it's not my job to correct them, demand from them, place pressure on them or qualify them based on their personal income.
You may not work for a non-profit but you enjoy the privacy of your own income & keep yours private - while at the same time demand knowing the income of your pastoral leader ...what do you gain by knowing this information?
Challenge: I'll tell you my income & where it comes from on this board if you'll do the same (as long as we don't jeopardize the policy of Doyle's privacy rules)
One thing for sure, if I had to perform a duty on a regular basis to gain trust I would know for sure who I could trust. And you claim to be an honest person? How do we know that?
For your information I have no problem informing our members how I give & I give them a round about idea of how much I give. For almost 30 years my wife & I have practiced giving generously & many times sacrificially. My board sees my giving record, my clerk sees it & my secretary sees it, so they know when I speak on giving I'm practicing what I preach ...I'm honest about being faithful but I'm thankful my church members don't put undue pressure on me to force me to expose my personal income.
Ask your boss at work if he will tell you his personal income, after all you contribute to his business in the form of labor every day & you help to make him/her a wealthy person ...based on your position you have the right to know their every personal income data.
And to conclude, yes it is about trusting God with your income! We trust Him with our soul, our families, our health, our decisions, our ministry, our kids choices & yes we trust Him with our money.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 8:32 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I can tell you that the ones disagreeing do NOT pastor for the most part. |
Da Sheik is a pastor, Quiet Wyatt is a pastor, and Cojak has pastored in the past.
Also, my pastor doesn't seem to have a problem with our church financial statement listing the salaries individually. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/25/17 9:55 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
| Quote: | Ask your boss at work if he will tell you his personal income, after all you contribute to his business in the form of labor every day & you help to make him/her a wealthy person ...based on your position you have the right to know their every personal income data.
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Man , you just cannot see through all of this. My boss pays me for work performed. He is not a group of individuals whom donates money to me.
If his employees donated money to him for his work , then yes we would want to know how much he is receiving.
Heres where I am coming from in short. We had a music leader in a church I attended that hid his salary , similar to the way you show expenses. His salary was finally exposed as over 50k a year not including his own business that sold the church musical equipment. That alone equated to over 75k one year and continued with the purchasing of new equipment over a period of years.
After he quit we found a room completely full of new equipment that had never been used , but bought from his business , and was never needed.
I could go on but you get the picture. So If these expenses and salaries had been in plain view on the expense report this never would have happened. Did this upset me? Yes , along with 75% or more of a church of over 400. As a point of interest , that church now has a congregation of around 60. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
2/25/17 10:00 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Again, I have to say that for me at least, I can see no good reason to conduct any church financial business in secret. I can see plenty of bad ones, such as fear of what some might say or think. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12798
2/25/17 10:51 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
| c6thplayer1 wrote: | | Quote: | Ask your boss at work if he will tell you his personal income, after all you contribute to his business in the form of labor every day & you help to make him/her a wealthy person ...based on your position you have the right to know their every personal income data.
|
Man , you just cannot see through all of this. My boss pays me for work performed. He is not a group of individuals whom donates money to me.
If his employees donated money to him for his work , then yes we would want to know how much he is receiving.
Heres where I am coming from in short. We had a music leader in a church I attended that hid his salary , similar to the way you show expenses. His salary was finally exposed as over 50k a year not including his own business that sold the church musical equipment. That alone equated to over 75k one year and continued with the purchasing of new equipment over a period of years.
After he quit we found a room completely full of new equipment that had never been used , but bought from his business , and was never needed.
I could go on but you get the picture. So If these expenses and salaries had been in plain view on the expense report this never would have happened. Did this upset me? Yes , along with 75% or more of a church of over 400. As a point of interest , that church now has a congregation of around 60. |
Well look at it this way, the pastor is a hired hand at the church. We sometimes do everything from janitorial to landscaping to feeding the hungry & preaching. Usually the board sets the pastor's salary. If the board informs the pastor that his salary is to be "X" & that his salary is to be made public then so be it. But if a pastor lets say 200 people has an overall budget of maybe $400,000.00 & there are mortgage payments, insurance, other staff f/t or p/t & all of the rest of a church's normal operating expenses you can rest assured Dear 6th that you will keep your pastor humble with a meager salary. Your demand to see his salary in writing is nothing more than being nosy & You send him the message that he is not trusted. Many a church member enjoys watching their pastor squirm on the hot seat walking on egg shells afraid to upset the big giver in the church.
I simply don't operate that way.
I have a board that knows my income ...period!
I give a full & complete summary of our expenses every year w/out individual personal breakdown of each staff member.
Like I said ...it's personal.
Your tithe and/or offering do not give you license to judge my worthiness.
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with a former leader. I too have had to clean up a few messes over the years from staff who went out of their way to make the budget a challenge but it didn't rob me of being able to trust future staff & leadership.
We watch our budget here like a hawk & I for one do not let any purchase over $500 be approved unless it crosses my desk first.
You & I have our own opinion & if you had to rely on church members to be obedient & committed for 40 years in order for you to have a limited income you might be a little more understanding.
There is no bonus plan, no shares to buy, no end of the year profit sharing & I don't let staff head up or even suggest to others that they conduct a pastor's appreciation Sunday because it's more focus on us. If the church heads it up on their own ...great! But I'm not going to ask for a birthday offering, Christmas offering or pastor's appreciation gift.
I'm thankful for what I get even when it doesn't include retirement or basic health insurance.
Oh well
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
2/25/17 11:39 pm
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