 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 A rough plan to drain the swamp in Cleveland |
aprilmay2.0 |
Let me start by saying i don't really think Cleveland is a swamp, but i put that title as click bait. Also, this is a rough/working plan. Id like to think those of us on this forum can develop a plan that works better than what we have.
1. Reduce EC from 5 to 3 (+1 admin asst)
2. Reduce World Missions staff in Cleveland to 3 (+1 Admin Asst)
3. Reduce Youth Staff to 3( including 1 Admin Asst)
4. Allow all states/regions to elect their own AB and YD
5. State AB's elect the EC/WM and YD
6.Reduce TOT to 8%
7. Ministers who do not report or pay TOT are not eligible to vote on anything or hold any office until they report and pay TOT for 2 years without missing.
8. Each state is responsible for their own church planting effort and missions effort working with the WM dept in cleveland.
9. All revenue and expenses are published (including salaries and expenses) quarterly on the ministers online reporting website.
10. ALL money from any property/building sale must be allocated based on the unanimous vote of all the AB's and EC as they see fit.
There's a start. Please add/delete or change as you see fit. and please offer explanation. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 165
11/30/16 10:31 am
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| Re: A rough plan to drain the swamp in Cleveland |
diakoneo |
| aprilmay2.0 wrote: | Let me start by saying i don't really think Cleveland is a swamp, but i put that title as click bait. Also, this is a rough/working plan. Id like to think those of us on this forum can develop a plan that works better than what we have.
1. Reduce EC from 5 to 3 (+1 admin asst)
2. Reduce World Missions staff in Cleveland to 3 (+1 Admin Asst)
3. Reduce Youth Staff to 3( including 1 Admin Asst)
4. Allow all states/regions to elect their own AB and YD
5. State AB's elect the EC/WM and YD
6.Reduce TOT to 8%
7. Ministers who do not report or pay TOT are not eligible to vote on anything or hold any office until they report and pay TOT for 2 years without missing.
8. Each state is responsible for their own church planting effort and missions effort working with the WM dept in cleveland.
9. All revenue and expenses are published (including salaries and expenses) quarterly on the ministers online reporting website.
10. ALL money from any property/building sale must be allocated based on the unanimous vote of all the AB's and EC as they see fit.
There's a start. Please add/delete or change as you see fit. and please offer explanation. |
Good ideas but wishful thinking.
All these reductions would mean a lack of positions for occupation and less power.
ABs being selected by individual states would mean less concentration of power.
These proposed measures would have to be put before the General Assembly and voted on...
not gonna happen |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
11/30/16 11:28 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Change Agent |
Do you think government and church should be radically turned upside down when they do not follow the will of the people.
What makes you think the will of COG people want the COG radically changed? Are the Good Ole Boys sick and tired of the way things are being handled? Trump voters were mad and didn't feel they were being heard. Are COG voters mad or is it just you that is mad? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
11/30/16 11:32 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| kind of ironic |
aprilmay2.0 |
that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 165
11/30/16 2:20 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Aprilmay2.0 |
Change Agent |
| Don't assume that Change Agent isn't wanting change. To get change it takes more than you and I wanting it. The Good Old Boys that live by the system and die in the system have got to want change. Do you see signs that voters are mad and are wanting change? |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1449
11/30/16 7:12 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
THE LOVE OF GOD |
Good suggestions. Probably would never pass but would be nice. I would like to add to #7 7. Ministers who do not report or pay TOT are not eligible to vote on anything or hold any office until they report and pay TOT for 2 years without missing.
AND ADD to that, some of these ministers are not counting tithe as tithe or instructing their people to put it in as offering instead of tithe. I do not agree with that. I know of several churches in another state that will have a hugh number in attendance and have only $7,000 tithe. Something is wrong. Surely state headquarters see this but what can they do? When we pastored, if it came in tithe, it was counted as tithe and percentages were paid accordinly. To me that is honesty and integrity. AB should not let people get behind in their percentages as it is hard to catch up. We have pastored struggling churches and always told the clerk pay the bills first and us second. Never made it rich but God always provided. I have seen many financial miracles. I am sure many other good pastors have done the same thing. Oh the sacrifices that our older senior pastors have had through the years. They did whatever they had to to keep the church open and win souls. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 383
11/30/16 8:46 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: A rough plan to drain the swamp in Cleveland |
Dean Steenburgh |
| aprilmay2.0 wrote: | Let me start by saying i don't really think Cleveland is a swamp, but i put that title as click bait. Also, this is a rough/working plan. Id like to think those of us on this forum can develop a plan that works better than what we have.
1. Reduce EC from 5 to 3 (+1 admin asst)
2. Reduce World Missions staff in Cleveland to 3 (+1 Admin Asst)
3. Reduce Youth Staff to 3( including 1 Admin Asst)
4. Allow all states/regions to elect their own AB and YD
5. State AB's elect the EC/WM and YD
6.Reduce TOT to 8%
7. Ministers who do not report or pay TOT are not eligible to vote on anything or hold any office until they report and pay TOT for 2 years without missing.
8. Each state is responsible for their own church planting effort and missions effort working with the WM dept in cleveland.
9. All revenue and expenses are published (including salaries and expenses) quarterly on the ministers online reporting website.
10. ALL money from any property/building sale must be allocated based on the unanimous vote of all the AB's and EC as they see fit.
There's a start. Please add/delete or change as you see fit. and please offer explanation. |
I like where this idea is going but I don't agree with #6. The GA voted years ago to reduce the ToT down to where it is now & I find it acceptable at 10%.
At the same time I don't like our current model using the ToT system but I know it's impossible to ever get it changed to a more equitable system so it will have to be left alone for now.
I would change #1 to electing a PB who will hold the office indefinitely until he either retires or steps down so we can elect a new leader. I don't like the 2 year or 4 year plan of revolving door leaders. Also I would only have 1 other EC member & they both have 1 admin asst.
#7 I would agree to 1 year instead of 2 years. We're looking for conformity not punishment.
#9 would be eliminated because I don't think most guys want their salary published for all to see & nowadays there is no way to protect that info online.
In place of #9 I would say that Cleveland releases all church properties to solvent or sovereign churches with 50 or more members who can afford to maintain their own properties & have the right to build, remodel &/or manage their own mortgage.
.
_________________
"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
Email me at: SteenburghDean@gmail.com
Church planters are focused on just one thing ...introducing people to Jesus!
What are you focused on? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
12/1/16 12:12 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Performance evaluation |
diakoneo |
If an AB comes into a state that is on the downhill slide as far as attendance, number of Churches, finances and other quantifiable attributes and builds the state up in some ways, shouldn't he be rewarded? Recognized? If a pastor comes in to a church in similar circumstances and does same will be not be rewarded? Yet if he fails again and again and again and again and he knows someone in Cleveland or at the state level he might be promoted again and again.
Until performance is evaluated properly and promotions or demotions are handed out accordingly, we will continue to have this conversation. The system begins with the people running the system. We have some great people in the Church of God, but just because you are a great person, doesn't mean you should be running the system. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
12/1/16 8:06 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| I like these ideas |
clevelandgrad |
Ladies and Gentleman:
I may not agree with all the suggestions listed above but I like the push being put forward for further change in Cleveland.
Most corporations have too much fat in the middle of their organizations but it is my opinion that the CoG has too much fat at the top.
Questions:
1. Why are their 3 assistant GO's, what are their salary packages and what are their job descriptions?
2. World Missions directors: what are their salary packages and what are their job descriptions.
3. Youth directors: what are their salary packages and what are their job descriptions?
4. Do each of these have their own administrative assistants?
5. What financial impact do these salaries/benefits packages and assistants have on the CoG as a whole?
I agree totally with the question regarding the benefits of the CoG to churches. What benefit is there to putting the CoG emblem over your door? Our churches pay for our trainings, our licensing, our pastors/pastors wives/pk's often are the ones who are sacrificing to keep the doors open and what do we hear from Cleveland regarding our sacrifices?.... Don't be late on your monthly reports/sending in your money or you will lose your voting privileges.
_________________
QUESTIONS |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
12/1/16 8:29 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: kind of ironic (sick of this stuff) |
spartanfan |
| aprilmay2.0 wrote: | that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
I am so sick of people being negative about the Church of God. Recently our state experienced a huge disaster with numerous buildings being partially or totally destroyed. The General Overseer (Tim Hill) made a plea for the CoG family across America to respond with love offerings to help restore or rebuild the affected churches. Overall I suppose about a million dollars or more was sent from the CoG family around the country to completely restore every church to a better status than it had prior to the disaster - even if it meant razing an ancient building and providing a brand new metal church building to worship in (furnished). That's just one of thousands of stories that could be told about "what do you get for being in the Church of God?" But even beyond that (which should answer your question and shut you up) there is so much offered in regard to love, encouragement, education, participation with others to build the Kingdom of God through a great World Missions program, a family, resources for church growth, Christian education, ministerial training - development - encouragement - care......... the list goes on and on. If you have been with us for any length of time and your question is "what do you get?" then the simple answer is "much more than you are aware of since you obviously haven't even taken the time to view the CoG website to see what all is available to help you and what opportunities are there for you to give to others and get involved in Kingdom ministry- and if you are dealing in dollars only then your financial contribution doesn't even begin to compare to the value of all that has been done, is being done and potentially could be done for you because you are in a church "family/fellowship" and not floating out on your own. If you're lucky the CoG will start you out in a building with some families to help you get going in the work of the ministry. If you planted a church (with your skill set) it would take you years to get to that place. By now you probably haven't even sent in enough tithes to cover the initial investment into your ministry let alone what all we've given you since. And if your property is ever totally demolished then we have ministries we do and are connected to that will perhaps restore your losses completely. I'm so sick of this call for change. We've done that - corrections have been made - so let's move on together in love and faith. What remains that needs to change most is the attitude of those who are bitter because they don't see themselves as getting a big enough piece of the pie when in reality they have been given far more than what they deserve or have earned. I do feel sorry for those who have been disappointed by their relationships within the church family - but realize that many have been given seemingly less than those disgruntled but somehow have still managed to exude the Christ-like characteristics of meekness, humility and thankfulness. Maybe you'll get lucky and your building will burn down so you can discover the benefits of being "a part" of something greater than your self. It could be great for your attitude and sorry spiritual outlook on your church family. Your keeping your tithes of tithes won't replace it but we will do our best to try and in many cases totally succeed. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
12/1/16 8:52 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: kind of ironic (sick of this stuff) |
clevelandgrad |
| spartanfan wrote: | | aprilmay2.0 wrote: | that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
I am so sick of people being negative about the Church of God. Recently our state experienced a huge disaster with numerous buildings being partially or totally destroyed. The General Overseer (Tim Hill) made a plea for the CoG family across America to respond with love offerings to help restore or rebuild the affected churches. Overall I suppose about a million dollars or more was sent from the CoG family around the country to completely restore every church to a better status than it had prior to the disaster - even if it meant razing an ancient building and providing a brand new metal church building to worship in (furnished). That's just one of thousands of stories that could be told about "what do you get for being in the Church of God?" But even beyond that (which should answer your question and shut you up) there is so much offered in regard to love, encouragement, education, participation with others to build the Kingdom of God through a great World Missions program, a family, resources for church growth, Christian education, ministerial training - development - encouragement - care......... the list goes on and on. If you have been with us for any length of time and your question is "what do you get?" then the simple answer is "much more than you are aware of since you obviously haven't even taken the time to view the CoG website to see what all is available to help you and what opportunities are there for you to give to others and get involved in Kingdom ministry- and if you are dealing in dollars only then your financial contribution doesn't even begin to compare to the value of all that has been done, is being done and potentially could be done for you because you are in a church "family/fellowship" and not floating out on your own. If you're lucky the CoG will start you out in a building with some families to help you get going in the work of the ministry. If you planted a church (with your skill set) it would take you years to get to that place. By now you probably haven't even sent in enough tithes to cover the initial investment into your ministry let alone what all we've given you since. And if your property is ever totally demolished then we have ministries we do and are connected to that will perhaps restore your losses completely. I'm so sick of this call for change. We've done that - corrections have been made - so let's move on together in love and faith. What remains that needs to change most is the attitude of those who are bitter because they don't see themselves as getting a big enough piece of the pie when in reality they have been given far more than what they deserve or have earned. I do feel sorry for those who have been disappointed by their relationships within the church family - but realize that many have been given seemingly less than those disgruntled but somehow have still managed to exude the Christ-like characteristics of meekness, humility and thankfulness. Maybe you'll get lucky and your building will burn down so you can discover the benefits of being "a part" of something greater than your self. It could be great for your attitude and sorry spiritual outlook on your church family. Your keeping your tithes of tithes won't replace it but we will do our best to try and in many cases totally succeed. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
Are you a Pastor? As far as churches being demolished, I agree that it is great that the COG members gave to help these churches. if those churches are wise, they have insurance to cover their losses. That's just good good planning.
In regards to church planting, have you ever planted a church? If not, you have no idea how little help you actually get from the CoG when birthing a church. You have no idea how little coaching/assistance you actually get in dealing with the many hurdles that come with starting a church. To quote a leader in the CoG: "nothing will be given to you, you will have to prove yourself."
Our northern and western states have difficulty planting church because the pastors/pastors families are expected to survive with a little stipend or no stipend from the CoG.
The CoG is great but could stand to improve in many areas. When discussions of change are not allowed to occur, churches/companies/people will start to lose their impact on current and future generations.
_________________
QUESTIONS |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
12/1/16 9:24 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: kind of ironic (sick of this stuff) |
spartanfan |
| clevelandgrad wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | aprilmay2.0 wrote: | that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
I am so sick of people being negative about the Church of God. Recently our state experienced a huge disaster with numerous buildings being partially or totally destroyed. The General Overseer (Tim Hill) made a plea for the CoG family across America to respond with love offerings to help restore or rebuild the affected churches. Overall I suppose about a million dollars or more was sent from the CoG family around the country to completely restore every church to a better status than it had prior to the disaster - even if it meant razing an ancient building and providing a brand new metal church building to worship in (furnished). That's just one of thousands of stories that could be told about "what do you get for being in the Church of God?" But even beyond that (which should answer your question and shut you up) there is so much offered in regard to love, encouragement, education, participation with others to build the Kingdom of God through a great World Missions program, a family, resources for church growth, Christian education, ministerial training - development - encouragement - care......... the list goes on and on. If you have been with us for any length of time and your question is "what do you get?" then the simple answer is "much more than you are aware of since you obviously haven't even taken the time to view the CoG website to see what all is available to help you and what opportunities are there for you to give to others and get involved in Kingdom ministry- and if you are dealing in dollars only then your financial contribution doesn't even begin to compare to the value of all that has been done, is being done and potentially could be done for you because you are in a church "family/fellowship" and not floating out on your own. If you're lucky the CoG will start you out in a building with some families to help you get going in the work of the ministry. If you planted a church (with your skill set) it would take you years to get to that place. By now you probably haven't even sent in enough tithes to cover the initial investment into your ministry let alone what all we've given you since. And if your property is ever totally demolished then we have ministries we do and are connected to that will perhaps restore your losses completely. I'm so sick of this call for change. We've done that - corrections have been made - so let's move on together in love and faith. What remains that needs to change most is the attitude of those who are bitter because they don't see themselves as getting a big enough piece of the pie when in reality they have been given far more than what they deserve or have earned. I do feel sorry for those who have been disappointed by their relationships within the church family - but realize that many have been given seemingly less than those disgruntled but somehow have still managed to exude the Christ-like characteristics of meekness, humility and thankfulness. Maybe you'll get lucky and your building will burn down so you can discover the benefits of being "a part" of something greater than your self. It could be great for your attitude and sorry spiritual outlook on your church family. Your keeping your tithes of tithes won't replace it but we will do our best to try and in many cases totally succeed. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
Are you a Pastor? As far as churches being demolished, I agree that it is great that the COG members gave to help these churches. if those churches are wise, they have insurance to cover their losses. That's just good good planning.
In regards to church planting, have you ever planted a church? If not, you have no idea how little help you actually get from the CoG when birthing a church. You have no idea how little coaching/assistance you actually get in dealing with the many hurdles that come with starting a church. To quote a leader in the CoG: "nothing will be given to you, you will have to prove yourself."
Our northern and western states have difficulty planting church because the pastors/pastors families are expected to survive with a little stipend or no stipend from the CoG.
The CoG is great but could stand to improve in many areas. When discussions of change are not allowed to occur, churches/companies/people will start to lose their impact on current and future generations. |
Of course no matter who you are or what you're doing there is room for improvement. My issue is not that we don't need to get better. My issue is with this attitude about "what do you get for being CoG?" I'll not bore you with a list of personal accomplishments in ministry but I've seen situations where people have been given a lot to start with and nothing to start with. I've seen successes and failures with both. It's the stinky attitude toward the church that I don't like. We all know that as far as church planting goes we need to get better - much better. It's our life-line. But if you can't start one with nothing expecting nothing then you're probably not called to do it. Because the first thing you need to do after prayer and educating yourself is locate available resources (and God can provide from surprising sources). If your attitude is "they didn't do this or they didn't do that" then you're doomed to begin with. Let God be your source and he'll use whoever He chooses. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
12/1/16 9:50 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: kind of ironic (sick of this stuff) |
clevelandgrad |
| spartanfan wrote: | | clevelandgrad wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | aprilmay2.0 wrote: | that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
I am so sick of people being negative about the Church of God. Recently our state experienced a huge disaster with numerous buildings being partially or totally destroyed. The General Overseer (Tim Hill) made a plea for the CoG family across America to respond with love offerings to help restore or rebuild the affected churches. Overall I suppose about a million dollars or more was sent from the CoG family around the country to completely restore every church to a better status than it had prior to the disaster - even if it meant razing an ancient building and providing a brand new metal church building to worship in (furnished). That's just one of thousands of stories that could be told about "what do you get for being in the Church of God?" But even beyond that (which should answer your question and shut you up) there is so much offered in regard to love, encouragement, education, participation with others to build the Kingdom of God through a great World Missions program, a family, resources for church growth, Christian education, ministerial training - development - encouragement - care......... the list goes on and on. If you have been with us for any length of time and your question is "what do you get?" then the simple answer is "much more than you are aware of since you obviously haven't even taken the time to view the CoG website to see what all is available to help you and what opportunities are there for you to give to others and get involved in Kingdom ministry- and if you are dealing in dollars only then your financial contribution doesn't even begin to compare to the value of all that has been done, is being done and potentially could be done for you because you are in a church "family/fellowship" and not floating out on your own. If you're lucky the CoG will start you out in a building with some families to help you get going in the work of the ministry. If you planted a church (with your skill set) it would take you years to get to that place. By now you probably haven't even sent in enough tithes to cover the initial investment into your ministry let alone what all we've given you since. And if your property is ever totally demolished then we have ministries we do and are connected to that will perhaps restore your losses completely. I'm so sick of this call for change. We've done that - corrections have been made - so let's move on together in love and faith. What remains that needs to change most is the attitude of those who are bitter because they don't see themselves as getting a big enough piece of the pie when in reality they have been given far more than what they deserve or have earned. I do feel sorry for those who have been disappointed by their relationships within the church family - but realize that many have been given seemingly less than those disgruntled but somehow have still managed to exude the Christ-like characteristics of meekness, humility and thankfulness. Maybe you'll get lucky and your building will burn down so you can discover the benefits of being "a part" of something greater than your self. It could be great for your attitude and sorry spiritual outlook on your church family. Your keeping your tithes of tithes won't replace it but we will do our best to try and in many cases totally succeed. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
Are you a Pastor? As far as churches being demolished, I agree that it is great that the COG members gave to help these churches. if those churches are wise, they have insurance to cover their losses. That's just good good planning.
In regards to church planting, have you ever planted a church? If not, you have no idea how little help you actually get from the CoG when birthing a church. You have no idea how little coaching/assistance you actually get in dealing with the many hurdles that come with starting a church. To quote a leader in the CoG: "nothing will be given to you, you will have to prove yourself."
Our northern and western states have difficulty planting church because the pastors/pastors families are expected to survive with a little stipend or no stipend from the CoG.
The CoG is great but could stand to improve in many areas. When discussions of change are not allowed to occur, churches/companies/people will start to lose their impact on current and future generations. |
Of course no matter who you are or what you're doing there is room for improvement. My issue is not that we don't need to get better. My issue is with this attitude about "what do you get for being CoG?" I'll not bore you with a list of personal accomplishments in ministry but I've seen situations where people have been given a lot to start with and nothing to start with. I've seen successes and failures with both. It's the stinky attitude toward the church that I don't like. We all know that as far as church planting goes we need to get better - much better. It's our life-line. But if you can't start one with nothing expecting nothing then you're probably not called to do it. Because the first thing you need to do after prayer and educating yourself is locate available resources (and God can provide from surprising sources). If your attitude is "they didn't do this or they didn't do that" then you're doomed to begin with. Let God be your source and he'll use whoever He chooses. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
I am a church planter and I can tell you the church that me and my family planted is a very successful/healthy church. Your comment: " If your attitude is "they didn't do this or they didn't do that" then you're doomed to begin with." is misguided. The church we planted is successful despite the lack of assistance from the CoG. My family and I have sacrificed greatly along with God's direction to bring this church to where it is today.
It would have been much easier if we didn't have to send in the ToT right from the beginning. We could have rooted much quicker and avoided many pit falls if we would have had some direction around these issues.
It's great that we come together to assist during tragedy but why are we not coming together to make our churches stronger? Offer free training. Send in successful church planters free of charge. Send in successful Pastors free of charge to give advice and direction. Send in building experts free of charge. Send in CPA's free of charge. Send in Architects free of charge. Take the assistance to the churches instead of the churches having to go to and pay for.
Are you a pastor and have you planted a church?
_________________
QUESTIONS |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
12/1/16 10:15 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
clevelandgrad |
Mr. or Mrs. aprilmay2.0,
I am sorry if we have hijacked your conversation.
_________________
QUESTIONS |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
12/1/16 10:18 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| what do you get? |
aprilmay2.0 |
This is really more of a business question. I think the COG has some excellent ministries and ministers. But from a fiscal standpoint, what do you get?
The simple fact is, the larger the church, the larger the TOT and the big churches fund the small churches and the elected/appointed officials take their cut off the top.
Here's the deal. I went to cleveland. I walked through the buildings. I knocked on doors and asked questions. The place is a ghost town. No one who is accessible knows. So I ask, "Where does my churches TOT go?"
Plus is the idea of a TOT even scripturally legitimate? Rest assured, people and specifically young people are asking questions about your local church and the money they spend. They/We want accountability. So why can't we ask that of HQ?
Lets say a church pays $25k a year in TOT. Thats a pretty good size church for the COG right? It means theoretically their tithe is $250,000.
So for your $25k do your senior adults still pay to attend conferences? Do your teenagers still pay to go to Teen Talent? Does your pastor still pay to register at the General Assembly? Do your teens still pay for Winterfest?
I don't think everything should be free. There is some cost to do ministry I am aware of that. But you should have knowledge and confidence in where your church money is being spent. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 165
12/1/16 10:33 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| clevelandgrad |
aprilmay2.0 |
No apologies necessary. I just like to talk.
One thing I think is interesting is the amount of people who agree change is needed but also the amount that say change is impossible.
Who wants to be in an organization where they feel change is needed but impossible?
Also, I recommended a TOT reduction to 8% because the number of jobs had been reduced. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 165
12/1/16 10:36 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| spartanfan |
aprilmay2.0 |
I think its a typical old school response when you say in one sentence "shut up" and in the next "move on in faith and love"
Is that love? Telling me to shut up?
Your attitude is part of what got us in this mess. Just blind trust and obedience. Shut up and watch people take state councils to New York.
Shut up and watch "ministry leaders" spend dollars at the hot springs.
Shut up and watch $75k and a Cadillac go out the door as a retirement gift.
Shut up and watch missions buildings get sold and nobody knows where the profits go.
Yeah. Lets all just keep shutting up and see what happens. Im sure that will work out fine. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 165
12/1/16 10:40 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: kind of ironic (sick of this stuff) |
spartanfan |
| clevelandgrad wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | clevelandgrad wrote: | | spartanfan wrote: | | aprilmay2.0 wrote: | that a guy named change agent isn't interested in change.
Im not qualified to speak for everyone in the COG. I can speak for me and a select few. Im not mad bro. Im more disappointed.
We give so much and receive so little. Think about it for a minute.
What do you get for being COG? You get to give your TOT but you still have to pay for everything. Our kids, seniors, everyone has to pay for state and national events on top of the TOT. And, if you have your AB or an EC member preach at your church, you probably have to give them an additional paycheck. I understand many of them refuse honorariums but many don't.
So... lets be change agents and change this thing before it dies. Because rest assured, it is dying. People are leaving. Money is running out. |
I am so sick of people being negative about the Church of God. Recently our state experienced a huge disaster with numerous buildings being partially or totally destroyed. The General Overseer (Tim Hill) made a plea for the CoG family across America to respond with love offerings to help restore or rebuild the affected churches. Overall I suppose about a million dollars or more was sent from the CoG family around the country to completely restore every church to a better status than it had prior to the disaster - even if it meant razing an ancient building and providing a brand new metal church building to worship in (furnished). That's just one of thousands of stories that could be told about "what do you get for being in the Church of God?" But even beyond that (which should answer your question and shut you up) there is so much offered in regard to love, encouragement, education, participation with others to build the Kingdom of God through a great World Missions program, a family, resources for church growth, Christian education, ministerial training - development - encouragement - care......... the list goes on and on. If you have been with us for any length of time and your question is "what do you get?" then the simple answer is "much more than you are aware of since you obviously haven't even taken the time to view the CoG website to see what all is available to help you and what opportunities are there for you to give to others and get involved in Kingdom ministry- and if you are dealing in dollars only then your financial contribution doesn't even begin to compare to the value of all that has been done, is being done and potentially could be done for you because you are in a church "family/fellowship" and not floating out on your own. If you're lucky the CoG will start you out in a building with some families to help you get going in the work of the ministry. If you planted a church (with your skill set) it would take you years to get to that place. By now you probably haven't even sent in enough tithes to cover the initial investment into your ministry let alone what all we've given you since. And if your property is ever totally demolished then we have ministries we do and are connected to that will perhaps restore your losses completely. I'm so sick of this call for change. We've done that - corrections have been made - so let's move on together in love and faith. What remains that needs to change most is the attitude of those who are bitter because they don't see themselves as getting a big enough piece of the pie when in reality they have been given far more than what they deserve or have earned. I do feel sorry for those who have been disappointed by their relationships within the church family - but realize that many have been given seemingly less than those disgruntled but somehow have still managed to exude the Christ-like characteristics of meekness, humility and thankfulness. Maybe you'll get lucky and your building will burn down so you can discover the benefits of being "a part" of something greater than your self. It could be great for your attitude and sorry spiritual outlook on your church family. Your keeping your tithes of tithes won't replace it but we will do our best to try and in many cases totally succeed. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
Are you a Pastor? As far as churches being demolished, I agree that it is great that the COG members gave to help these churches. if those churches are wise, they have insurance to cover their losses. That's just good good planning.
In regards to church planting, have you ever planted a church? If not, you have no idea how little help you actually get from the CoG when birthing a church. You have no idea how little coaching/assistance you actually get in dealing with the many hurdles that come with starting a church. To quote a leader in the CoG: "nothing will be given to you, you will have to prove yourself."
Our northern and western states have difficulty planting church because the pastors/pastors families are expected to survive with a little stipend or no stipend from the CoG.
The CoG is great but could stand to improve in many areas. When discussions of change are not allowed to occur, churches/companies/people will start to lose their impact on current and future generations. |
Of course no matter who you are or what you're doing there is room for improvement. My issue is not that we don't need to get better. My issue is with this attitude about "what do you get for being CoG?" I'll not bore you with a list of personal accomplishments in ministry but I've seen situations where people have been given a lot to start with and nothing to start with. I've seen successes and failures with both. It's the stinky attitude toward the church that I don't like. We all know that as far as church planting goes we need to get better - much better. It's our life-line. But if you can't start one with nothing expecting nothing then you're probably not called to do it. Because the first thing you need to do after prayer and educating yourself is locate available resources (and God can provide from surprising sources). If your attitude is "they didn't do this or they didn't do that" then you're doomed to begin with. Let God be your source and he'll use whoever He chooses. |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan:
I am a church planter and I can tell you the church that me and my family planted is a very successful/healthy church. Your comment: " If your attitude is "they didn't do this or they didn't do that" then you're doomed to begin with." is misguided. The church we planted is successful despite the lack of assistance from the CoG. My family and I have sacrificed greatly along with God's direction to bring this church to where it is today.
It would have been much easier if we didn't have to send in the ToT right from the beginning. We could have rooted much quicker and avoided many pit falls if we would have had some direction around these issues.
It's great that we come together to assist during tragedy but why are we not coming together to make our churches stronger? Offer free training. Send in successful church planters free of charge. Send in successful Pastors free of charge to give advice and direction. Send in building experts free of charge. Send in CPA's free of charge. Send in Architects free of charge. Take the assistance to the churches instead of the churches having to go to and pay for.
Are you a pastor and have you planted a church? |
Wow! Congrats! I'm glad that everything that you went through brought you to the point where you can say, " The church we planted is successful despite the lack of assistance from the CoG. My family and I have sacrificed greatly along with God's direction to bring this church to where it is today." So..... you can live out Ephesians 5:20 and you can as Paul said that we should "give thanks always and for everything. . . in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father." If the CoG lack of involvement in providing support or even feeling supported resulted in you starting a great church and taught your family the tremendous benefits of sacrifice to work alongside of the Lord in accomplishing much for His Kingdom - shouldn't you be glad that you took the more challenging road because of the many life lessons (including the benefits of great faith) that you learned and taught your family through the experience? Instead of sounding bitter you should be thankful that you have learned how you personally should step up and assist those planting churches so they don't have to battle with feeling unloved and unsupported like you did - what a great lesson and wonderful ministry opportunity. Listen - I am sorry you have had to wrestle with the disappointments along the way, I really am. But my council to you is forgive, forget, move on and make things better for someone else. Don't have such a great church and ministry and then despise what you went through to get to that point. If too much was handed to you - you might not have reached the place of accomplishment and fulfillment you now have. Be thankful and not bitter - and try to change things for the good the right way and not sounding sour on social websites. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
12/1/16 11:10 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
clevelandgrad |
Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan,
I assume you are not a pastor or church planter and thus have no clue what I am talking about. Thank you for the sermon on how to handle tough situations and what to do with the lessons I have learned. Should I need another sermon in the future from someone who has no clue, I will send you a message.
_________________
QUESTIONS |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 59
12/1/16 11:54 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Bad Assumer |
spartanfan |
| clevelandgrad wrote: | Mr. or Mrs. Spartanfan,
I assume you are not a pastor or church planter and thus have no clue what I am talking about. Thank you for the sermon on how to handle tough situations and what to do with the lessons I have learned. Should I need another sermon in the future from someone who has no clue, I will send you a message.
|
You are very welcome. You are a bad assumer but I am willing to let you tap in to the little wisdom I've developed over the past several years of life and ministry. When you need a sermon - you know who you can count on to "keep it real." And don't pass off my instructions on how to handle tough situations too lightly - I'm just sharing with you what I've learned to be "the Jesus way" of handling hurts, disappointments and offenses. Your way makes you sound like a spiritual adolescent - which I know you are not. You're just sounding that way. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3638
12/1/16 12:07 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
