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brotherjames

Well,

brotherjames · Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/25/16 4:45 pm**

Cojak & Otcp et al, I am slammed with work at the moment and can't respond fully but let me quickly comment that your hermeneutics is flawed. Asking me if I ever get sick has nothing to do with God's Word. One of the criticisms against Pentecostal/Charismatic theology is that we are too experiential. We argue rightly that our experiences validate the Word of God. That is partially true. When cessationists argue that tongues and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, we rightly argue that we are still experiencing those things exactly as the Word of God indicated the early church did, ergo our experiences line up with and help to validate our theology that those things are for today.

When you argue that your experiences don't line up with the Word of God and therefore the Word of God is either wrong or we are misunderstanding the application of the Word, we argue from a flawed point. For example, The Word of God says in Isa 53 He was wounded etc and He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows many take it to mean a spiritual taking of our pain etc. But, Matt. 8:17 explains to us the meaning more deeply, He took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses. A physical healing has been provided for and a spiritual one. We see it manifested in Jesus' life and ministry. He also tells us that the will of God is for heaven to come down to earth in Matt. 6. We are told God wants it to be on earth as it is on heaven. Then why isn't it?
We know that satan was defeated at the cross and yet his ultimate destruction and loss of rule will not be complete until after the millennial reign of Christ. But God's desire/will is for it to be so now. Acts 10:38 tells us Jesus went about doing good and healing ALL who were oppressed of the devil. We are also told He only did what He saw the Father doing. Ergo, God's will is to heal and deliver and save, physically, emotionally, spiritually etc. And then Jesus tells us that after He leaves earth, we, His disciples, will do even greater works than He. Everyone Jesus prayed for was healed. But not everyone, including myself, that I have prayed for was healed. So is my experience correct or the Word of God correct?

I am not Jesus. I do not have the same relationship with the Father & Spirit he did. I am trying to but I have not arrived. It is a process. Many dear people I have loved have died after prayer in faith was made for them. This distresses me no end. But is God's Word true? It is. My experiences say no but His Word says otherwise. I have decided to believe His Word. You can try to twist His Word into some pretzel that lets you off the hook and makes you feel better about yourself if you like. His Word and Will are NOT the problem. We still live in a fallen world, sin reigns, just not over me and His church, people will die before their time, some may still get sick but that is NOT HIS fault nor will, blame it on Adam if you like.

Sickness is a curse (read Deu. 2 Cool

. God gets no glory from your sickness. He does not put sickness on any believer to chasten them or teach them a lesson. Can we learn something in the midst of our sickness, of course. I have stood on 5 continents and preached to tens of thousands at a time. I have seen un-describable miracles of God's Grace and power. Thousands and many thousands saved as a direct result of God confirming His Word with signs following. I have seen everything but the resurrection of the dead but I have also experienced the heartbreak of leaving a dying or sick person in the same physical state as when I met them. Why? Don't know. BUt you can't tell me it wasn't God's will to heal them all. If He did it thru Jesus, He will do it thru me, eventually.

Yes I get sick rarely but my experiences do not overshadow the Word and will of God. Don't try to change his Word to fit your experience. Instead, ask God what more YOU may have to do in order to see what Jesus saw in your own life and ministry. The church is standing under and open heaven. We shall see even greater things and be used in even a greater way soon. I believe that. What a glorious day that will be. Until then, I keep praying and believing even when I don't experience what I thought I should. God is not a liar, but I see thru a glass darkly on this side.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **8/25/16 6:10 pm**

Some early Pentecostals wholeheartedly believed quite literally in the following inspired words of Jesus from John 11:26, too: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." And yet, they all died. I guess their faith just wasn't quite up to snuff.

JLarry

Eddie I do not know

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **8/25/16 6:11 pm**

Eddie wrote:

Eddie Robbins

Re: Eddie I do not know

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/25/16 6:44 pm**

JLarry

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **8/25/16 8:27 pm**

Eddie I certainly understand that. If that had been me I would have also wanted to go home.
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No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision.

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: Well,

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15564 **8/25/16 8:43 pm**

brotherjames

Maybe you might

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/25/16 9:35 pm**

Want to read the rest of my post although I didn't expect you to acknowledge truth even when it is in front of you if it conflicts with your preconceived ideas. Nor did I say we are exempt from sickness. I said I don't believe sickness is God's will, we should be exempt from it but unfortunately we are in process and haven't yet arrived.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **8/25/16 10:45 pm**

When I was a young boy, a young girl my age in the church my father pastored, the Central Assembly of God in Chicago, IL, came down with cancer. Her mom and dad prayed. Our whole church prayed. She grew steadily sicker and weaker over the next few months.

One Sunday afternoon, we were having a fellowship meal in the basement fellowship hall, when Tammy's mom grew concerned. Tammy had wandered off. Her mom found her upstairs in the sanctuary, sitting at our big grand piano. Tammy absolutely loved playing the piano. Scolding her, her mom asked where she had been, as she had been looking all over in the church basement for her before coming upstairs to the sanctuary.

Tammy very matter-of-factly replied, "I've been sitting here talking to Jesus. He just got up and walked out the door right before you came in the other door. He sat down beside me and told me how much he enjoyed my piano playing, how much he loved me, and then he told me that in a few days I was going to get to come live with Him at his house."

Over the next few days, Tammy's condition took a severe turn for the worse, and she passed away from cancer at the age of 7. Everybody in our church grieved losing her, but we also found great comfort in knowing how much Jesus loved her and that she had truly just gone to live with Him in his house. Her death was no failure on anyone's part. God's will was not to heal her body in this life, but instead was to take her to a place of perfect love, joy, and peace forevermore.

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **8/25/16 11:31 pm**

BroJames, I am only saying, All Christians are not educated in the Word of God, But so many are completely dedicated to Him. I do not believe a loving God would say, "Child I say, you can and will be healed of all sickness, My Son suffered and died that you may be healed. You must have faith, now you figure it out, if you don't, then some of these malady's are going to kill you, so TRY to get it right. If you don't, you will die."

I just read today that more people are leaving the area of Religious Faith. Many reasons, but one is 'Promises by Preachers of WOF. Others are saying it is no longer a Religion but a Business.

I believe it is foolish to tell someone they are healed, God's Word says so, and they they are not. How do you explain that to someone with diabetes?

YES I did read your response, you say YOU are still learning? WHAT? Then how do you expect the neophyte to handle, the fact they believed, they trusted, they did everything they knew to do, but are not healed?

When it is so obvious that good Christians are not healed, then someone is interpreting God's Word wrong.

I have a lot of questions. I am now approaching 78 years of age. It has actually been over 60 years since I witnessed a real miracle and I have been around a lot of Godly men.

I am not being hard, I am not intentionally snarky, I WANT TO KNOW. Embarassed

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Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **8/25/16 11:35 pm**

I will say we generally will not know for sure if it isn't God's will to heal an individual until after they die, though I have experienced more than one case in which I definitely got the witness in my spirit that this particular sickness was unto death, something they would not recover from, and that the Lord was pleased with their faith in Him, but nevertheless was going to take them home. So, the WoFer insistence that you must affirm it is always God's will to heal or else you're injecting doubt into people's minds is simply not the case. It was God's will that King Hezekiah die and not live before Hezekiah prayed and changed God's mind.

JLarry

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **8/26/16 11:28 am**

"I can either lower the Scripture to my level of experience or I can fight to raise my level of experience to the standard of the Scripture". Bill Johnson
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Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com

No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision.

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/26/16 11:31 am**

brotherjames

Or you can have what you say ;)

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/26/16 2:28 pm**

*[[Num 14:27]] KJV* How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.

*[[Num 14:28]] KJV* Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

You say it's not His will to heal, so be it unto you. As you have spoken evil of the Lord and declared Him to be evil He has heard you.

*[[Num 14:22]] KJV* Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; *[[Num 14:23]] KJV* Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: *[[Num 14:24]] KJV* But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

I know, old covenant. Good thing huh?

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/26/16 3:01 pm**

Charlize Theron

brotherjames

I'll stand in agreement eddie

brotherjames · Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/26/16 3:53 pm**

Let me know how your wife handles it . Cool

Eddie Robbins

Re: I'll stand in agreement eddie

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **8/26/16 4:00 pm**

brotherjames

Sorry

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/26/16 4:57 pm**

[Fixed it. Embarassed

[/i]

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **8/26/16 4:58 pm**

brotherjames

Let me suggest one more thing

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **8/27/16 9:20 pm**

If you want to know the will of God in a matter consider that Jesus not only told us to pray "that it might be done on earth as in Heaven" - in other words Heaven should invade earth or put another way earth should look like heaven. No sickness in heaven so no sickness on earth. We know however we live in a fallen world where satan rules those without Christ but that's not the way God wants/wanted it.

In addition, if we look to Jesus as our role model we must consider that He did nothing as God on earth, rather He acted supernaturally because He was a man filled with the supernatural Spirit of God. If He did His acts as God then it would be unreasonable for Him to tell us that we could do the same as He and in fact do GREATER works than He (John 14:12) (once we would be filled with the same Spirit as he was - the one who has resurrection power, the Holy Spirit of God),

Therefore, when Jesus said "John 5:19 NIV Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. (John 5:19 KJV Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.)
what was He saying? He was saying He only did what He saw the Father doing. SO, His miracles of healing etc were being done by the Father first. Was there ANY who came to Jesus that were Not healed? Of course not. Ergo, the will of the Father was being manifested by the Son on earth. He healed them ALL. See Acts 10:38 and various others.

I know this is way to logical for some of you but try to grasp the concept. Our experiences to the contrary notwithstanding, do not make His will change. We are not living in the same relationship with the Father as Jesus was for the most part or I could easily be correct in saying for any of us. I haven't arrived. People still die I pray for, many are not healed this side of heaven but many are. If it was possible for Jesus, I want nothing to hold me back from accessing ALL He said I could do. I know I may never get there but I surely won't if every time I pray, I pray "Lord if it's your will heal this person." That's the MOST faithless prayer I have ever heard and coming from the mouths of so-called Pentecostals pains me even more than you could possible imagine.

Cojak

Re: Let me suggest one more thing

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **8/27/16 9:45 pm**