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bonnie knox

We should discuss 1 Timothy 2

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/25/16 9:13 pm**

I'm not sure where to start. I heard this scripture bandied about and definitely misused in the GA debate this week. Verse 12, which the KJV renders "usurp authority" was cited as an injunction against women ever being in a leadership or decision-making position. Of course, other versions may confuse the issue even more by rendering it, as one man read from the council floor, "have authority."
And one dear bishop, bless his heart, made the word "usurp" sound like YOUSup. If only the pronunciation were all he had wrong.
I really liked what Mike Chapman said about having a conversation. I think that's a good idea.

revuriah

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **7/25/16 9:28 pm**

I took a class on the pastoral epistles this spring in my online studies with Lee U. Part of our assigned reading was a chapter that looked closely at the Greek word Paul used, authentein. The meaning had changed some over the centuries of use. The author was arguing that there was something of a sexual connotation. She wrote of the cult of Diana, whose temple and influence was in Ephesus. The argument was that the cult's teaching had infiltrated the church and women were somehow exercising some ungodly authority in connection.

I'm butchering the point, I'm sure.
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Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15564 **7/25/16 10:17 pm**

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/25/16 10:24 pm**

One of the interesting things is that this is the only place in the New Testament, the word authentein is used.

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/26/16 1:54 pm**

Revuriah, I wonder if you are referring to work by Linda Belleville. She has written quite a bit about this topic.

http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/priscilla-papers/exegetical-fallacies-interpreting-1-timothy-211%E2%80%9315?page=show

revuriah

Re: (L)

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **7/26/16 2:59 pm**

revuriah

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **7/26/16 3:01 pm**

revuriah

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **7/26/16 3:04 pm**

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **7/26/16 3:22 pm**

Once authority is given, you can't usurp authority. The men have voted to keep the authority, bless their hearts. But, one day, they will "allow" the women to do what God has called them to do and give them the authority. It will happen.

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/27/16 10:04 am**

Tom, those questions are a good place to start. I really do hope people will start asking themselves questions like these.

brotherjames

Well Bonnie

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **7/27/16 11:38 am**

I've posted some of this before and resisted posting it again as personal biases often remain even in the face of irrefutable facts (consider our political divisions for example) and your questions certainly deserve open-minded fair discussion but people will not change - just get used to it I guess or come over to the AG where we have had women in ministry and leadership since our inception. Here is a summary of my dissertation on the subject of Women in Ministry especially in reference to your scripture reference of 1 Timothy 2:

WOMEN IN MINISTRY

PREAMBLE:
There is much for us to understand regarding women in Ministry. The word of God must always be interpreted by considering all of the scripture, from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation. The “Full Counsel” of God’s Word must be taken in the context written, not taking one verse out of context and then trying to build a doctrine based upon our preconceived biases.
The Assemblies of God, since the beginnings of our movement, believes in the supernatural ennoblement and gifting of the Holy Spirit. We have as a movement been blessed by many gifted women over the past century. In doing so, we see the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-29 in the Book of Acts, especially Acts 2:16-18. “This is that...”. Therefore, we as a movement and more importantly as part of the universal Body of Christ must recognize that when God speaks through His Word, He intends it to prevail for all eternity (“heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away” Luke 21:13). So when He says, “your daughters shall prophesy... and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit”, we must realize this is the Truth for all time.
We all agree that the Bible is always our final authority for all Truth taught. Yet there is much debate in some circles regarding the role of women in spiritual leadership and particularly in the government of the local church and in the greater scope of the Body at large.

SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES:
Let us examine in detail some of the more perplexing scriptures that have given rise to this honest debate among sincere Christians, even Spirit-Baptized believers.
The most problems stem from these two passages that the Apostle Paul wrote:
1 Corinthians 14: 34-36 & 1 Timothy 2: 11-12
These words have often been misinterpreted (innocently and not so innocently) and have been a source of perplexity to the Body, especially to many women who have a burning in their souls for service to the Lord. Many denominations have forbidden women to teach, preach, testify, or even pray audibly in church, based upon these scriptures.
Let us consider the whole counsel of God’s Word. In the Genesis account of creation, there is no sign of inequality between the sexes. In Genesis 1:26-28 both men & women were to subdue and have dominion over everything on earth. We must sometimes be reminded that Woman was taken from Adam’s side, not his foot and made as a helpmeet to man. This word for helper in the Hebrew is never understood as a subordinate role, rather it means suitable or one “corresponding” to Adam.
However, after the fall, a curse was laid upon the wife. This curse fell upon Eve, not as a woman, but as a wife. Women are not placed in a lower rank to men. However, there is a different relationship and distinction made between a husband and a wife. Wives do have a subordinate place in the family but not in the Lord. And yet even in the familial role, there is a lack of understanding as to what Genesis 3 is speaking of after the Fall when God says, “Man shall rule over you.” The rule there is not dominion, it is in fact an understanding that no longer will God be first in her life naturally but now she will fight the impulse to put her devotion for her husband before her God. That is the curse. But God never intended for that to be the case and in Christ the possibility exists for both men and women to put God back on His throne in their lives by putting Him first – naturally. Galatians 3:28 says “There is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ." Jesus showed us the way it would be in Heaven, (Mat 22:30 KJV) "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.”

Why would that be? Because in Heaven we will have glorified bodies, that is to say spiritual bodies. After all, God is Spirit and we shall be like Him. Therefore God places no limitations on the spiritual. What we have done is taken the relationship of husbands and wives and made these distinctions and limitations a part of our culture relating to women’s roles rather than to wives roles! In the Spiritual realm there are neither distinctions nor limitations made by God. Gal. 3:28. In fact, women are called “Sons of God" I John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God." John was writing to the entire church. In fact 3 John starts out, "to the elect lady" (most agree it is a church not only 'just for a woman). The verse continues... "and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when He appears we will be like Him: for we shall see Him as He is." Women will be like Him as much as men will, for we will ALL be spiritual.
So what is Paul trying to say to us in I Corinthians 14:34-36? “Women keep silent in the churches”:
In the original Greek, there is only one word for woman or wife, the word “Gune”. This word can be interpreted either as woman or wife depending upon the context of the sentence or usage. There is also only one word for man - none for husband. Verse 34 must be talking about a wife not a woman because in the context of the two verses taken together the word for man is translated husband in vs. 35 because the word home is used. Verse 35 says, “If they will learn, let them ask their husbands at home.” Since not all women have husbands, the sentence is better translated “Let your wives keep silence.”
Why would Paul tell the wives to keep silent and learn at home? In order to understand this better, you need to know how the early church (and the Jewish synagogues even today) was structured. There were cultural differences from today. The women/wives/girls were seated or stood on one side of the room while the men/husbands/boys were on the other side of the room. Can you imagine the discord (see Vs 33 confusion) that could arise if a wife were to ask a question of her husband on the other side of the room? Can you hear the chattering as women (who were not allowed to be educated in some cultures would talk among themselves to get an answer (learn at home)? In other words, he seems to be saying 1) don’t chatter 2) don’t disrupt by asking questions. As we see, the “whole counsel of God” must be used, for in 1 Cor. 11:5 Paul is certainly permitting women to pray and prophesy in corporate services.
Let us consider the other problem passage, I Timothy 2:11-15 “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” Paul again is not talking about women but wives here. Consider the fact that Paul is referring to Adam and Eve - husband and wife. Again, ask your husband at home, so as not to cause confusion in church meeting. Implying men were better informed than women were. In addition, it seems highly plausible that Paul is here addressing to Timothy some of the problems that this particular church (Ephesus) was having. There were some heretical teachings and practices going on and some of the problem was coming from the Ephesian women/wives. If you read the entire passage from 1 Timothy 2:9-15 you get a picture of a unique heresy involving these women.

Paul is making an application for this church and not necessarily an application universally applied to all churches for all time.

How can we say this?
As we have said in the beginning, all scripture should be interpreted in the light of what other scripture says from Genesis to Revelation.
I Corinthians 14:34 says, "Women keep silent in the church."
I Corinthians 11: 5 says, " Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head." How can you prophesy and keep silent at the same time? (Some especially those who don't believe in gifts for today think prophesying is preaching). Acts 2:16,17 "this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will “see visions your old men will dream dreams”. This is what Joel prophesied and Peter said on the day of Pentecost. In Acts 1: 13-14, they were All (men/women) in the upper room. They continued “in prayer with the women”, so women were praying. Acts 5: 1 0 when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius' household they were All filled. Mary the mother of Jesus prophesied. Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist prophesied. Luke 2:36 " Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher." prophesied in the temple, she prayed night and day. The Bible calls Anna a prophetess, which is the feminine form of prophet. Miriam, Moses sister was a prophet. Deborah from the Book of Judges not only ruled Israel but she also was a prophetess. Hilkiah the High Priest went to Huldah the prophetess of God in 2 Kings 22:14 to find out for King Josiah the word of the Lord.
Paul certainly would not prevent women from speaking messages given to them by the Holy Ghost because the Lord says, “your daughters shall prophesy”. Paul had to be saying, “I suffer not a wife to teach or usurp authority over her husband” or if in fact he was dealing with a unique situation he was not telling us that women must not rule or teach men! In fact, regarding that women should not teach men, we see in Acts 18:26 that Aquila and Priscilla taught Apollos. Paul addresses in Rom. 16:3 Priscilla first when he salutes the church that meets at Priscilla and Aquila’s house “who have for my life laid down their own necks” (unusual to greet woman first, Paul respected women).
Again, we find the problem of translation in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 dealing with qualifications for ministry. While it is true that this passage deal primarily with male leadership, it is also true that it does so out of majority practices and expectations. Verse 11 also gives us some problems. The word translates wives here is the Greek “gunaikas” which can be translated as wives or women depending upon usage and the translator’s assumptions. One rendering gives us the impression of Deacon’s wives while the other rendering leads us to female spiritual leadership in the church. We know in reading Paul’s other epistles, especially Romans 16 that women in leadership roles were permitted. Romans 16:1-2 Phoebe is called a servant of the church. The Greek word diakonos translated here as servant. " I commend unto you Phoebe, a deaconess”.
Paul wrote to the church at Rome to the men as well as women "assist her".
Roman 16:3-4 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers", Roman 16:12 “salute Tryphena and. Tryphosa who labour in the Lord; salute Persis”. From the Greek we know these three are women. Rom. 16:7 Junia is a feminine name, she is called an Apostle.

JUST BECAUSE A PASSAGE IMPLIES MOST LEADERS WERE MEN DOES NOT AND CAN NOT BE MADE TO SAY WOMEN CANNOT BE LEADERS AS WELL.
Is the man the head of the woman? I Corinthians 11:3 says, “ the head of every man is Christ, head of the wife is the husband, head of Christ is God. Is every man the head of every woman? No. A man is the head of one woman, his wife. The Greek word for man and husband in the New Testament is the same. “A husband is the head of his wife.” Paul in his writing is sometimes talking about women in general, other times he is strictly talking about wives. Christ is the head of the woman just as much as he is the head of man. Christ is the head of the Church. Paul was talking about family situations. He is not saying the husband is the wife's spiritual head. If that were true, the born-again wife, of an unsaved man, would not have a spiritual head. Jesus is the head of the Church. In Christ there is neither male nor female.
The first to go and. tell, (to preach means "to go tell") the good tiding of the Resurrection of Jesus was a woman. On the day of Pentecost and in Acts 4:31, they were all filled (men & women alike) with the Holy Ghost. In fact, Phillip had 4 daughters who were prophets (esses). Can women be ordained into the 5-fold ministry?

CONCLUSION:
In conclusion, we must remember, God is no respecter of persons, male or female. Husbands are to rule (in love) their homes with their wives in subjection to them (godly leadership). However, in the church of Jesus Christ, no matter our personal biases, there is neither male nor female. There may be practical problems that need to be addressed to deal with cultural situations but the ideal in Christ is for all to be submitted to the Lordship of Christ and be led by the Holy Spirit who gives gifts to (men/women) all flesh severally as He wills, not our wills! It is God who divinely calls and equips supernaturally and appoints and anoints for service and spiritual leadership. With the fields white unto harvest and the lack of harvesters available to reap, let us not be guilty of holding back any whom can help to bring in God’s bounty of souls. Let us rather consider how we may spur one another on towards love and good works and work while it is yet day!! May all of God’s vessels be available for and fit for the Master’s use!

bonnie knox

brotherjames,

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/27/16 1:01 pm**

If I were planning to serve as a pastor, evangelist, or missionary in the near future, I would certainly have to consider seriously whether I would want to stay with the Church of God, but I don't see myself in any of those ministries in the near future. However, I do think change is coming in the Church of God. I think an open dialogue about the scriptural foundations for women serving in all areas of ministry may help make a smoother transition.

While I see differently quite a few of the things you have stated, I think the following cannot be overstated.

Ed Brewer

????

Friendly Face Posts: 312 **7/27/16 8:50 pm**

For all those trying to entice the Lady Ministers of the Church of God to jump ship and come on over to the A/G, remind me again how many women have served as General Superintendent in the USA or the chairman of the World AOG Fellowship? In fact, without the affirmative action provision from the previous Assembly they wouldn't have elected their first female to the executive presbytery in August of 2009. With all due respect, it can be said that there are those in the COG with deeply held scriptural bases for their understanding of the role of men and women in the leadership of the church, and because of that they CAN'T vote for women in leadership. Since it has never been a point of overt scriptural contention for them, it seems that the men in the AOG just won't. Solicitation in this context is coarse and unseemly and poisons legitimate debate.
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brotherjames

Hmmmm, uhhh where to begin

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **7/27/16 9:08 pm**

Let me think..... poisons legitimate debate, hypocritical AG men, deeply held scriptural beliefs, overt scriptural contention. My my my, how to respond. Umm maybe you might bother to read the deeply held scriptual beliefs I ( a male by the way who wrote a dissertation refuting your deeply held st...d chauvinistic beliefs that reflect your lack of understanding of the word) posted above.. Also, I was kidding Bonnie, we have had this discussion previously, and she knows I was joking. On the other hand, while we didn't officially add a woman to the exec. Presbytery until 2009, women have held leadership positions in districts around the country as well as being lead/Sr pastors, missionaries and evangelists, and all women who hold credentials of license to preach and ordained have the right to vote in all district and general councils. And, Just because some men may be hypocritical doesn't mean all of us are or that we tolerate it. Your deeply held beliefs are easily refuted but you can't teach some people beyond their biases.
You are the one poisoning the discussion btw. Nice post. Not offensive in the slightest. Btw how do you spell misogyny again? I forget.

bonnie knox

Prooftexting is the crux of what is happening here

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/28/16 8:41 am**

brotherjames

That was part of my point

Acts-celerater Posts: 935 **7/28/16 9:38 am**

This letter was dealing with a specific cultural issue in Ephesus and wasn't intended to be taken as a law for all time, in different situations. While the text may have been holy Spirit inspired that can still mean inspired for a specific issue. Consider the Council of Jerusalem's edict against strangling and the eating of blood. They were dealing with pagan worship that included the drinking of blood. So as to differentiate between Christianity and pagan religions the Holy Spirit inspires James to tell the new Gentile believers to abstain from blood. Ergo, Paul can easily be seen to be telling Timothy that Diana worship in Ephesus has infiltrated the women in that city even including Christian women, so he wouldnt allow them into leadership positions at this time.

Change Agent

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1449 **7/28/16 4:24 pm**

Ed Brewer stated:

For all those trying to entice the Lady Ministers of the Church of God to jump ship and come on over to the A/G, remind me again how many women have served as General Superintendent in the USA or the chairman of the World AOG Fellowship? In fact, without the affirmative action provision from the previous Assembly they wouldn't have elected their first female to the executive presbytery in August of 2009. With all due respect, it can be said that there are those in the COG with deeply held scriptural bases for their understanding of the role of men and women in the leadership of the church, and because of that they CAN'T vote for women in leadership. Since it has never been a point of overt scriptural contention for them, it seems that the men in the AOG just won't. Solicitation in this context is coarse and unseemly and poisons legitimate debate."

Deeply held scriptural bases can be wrong. COG ministers over the years had a deeply held scriptural basis for a lot of "past" things on which they have now changed their views. I would think you would be more accurate if you had stated deeply held cultural view. Some of the view on scripture seems to change when the culture changes. When the old culture dies out the scriptural views die too.

I have attended the COG and AG and find that there is resistance to women in leadership in both. AG is more open to women but it is not hard to find pastors that are contrary to AG view in their actions and thoughts.

I recently heard AG leader George Woods preach on the importance of women in ministry. He was doing some hard plowing without a lot of amens.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12792 **7/28/16 5:34 pm**

Over the course of his ministry, my father evangelized and pastored in the AG, CoG, and in the Foursquare. He found that the Foursquare denomination was by far the most affirming of lady ministers, which is to be expected, of course, considering it was started by perhaps the most phenomenally successful female pastor of all time.

bonnie knox

A year later, and

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **7/26/17 1:31 pm**

...this is still coming up, and I wonder if anyone has delved into this.

Carolyn Smith

Re: A year later, and

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5910 **7/27/17 3:04 am**