 |
Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Message |
Author |
 Am I the only one who notices that Paul's letters... |
Aaron Scott |
often include some hint (or very direct statement!) of receiving an offering from the church being addressed? It's as if he writes these letters to be both a blessing...and to procure their assistance as he ministers. The money, it seems, might have been used to help him travel, to help him keep up the evangelistic team that he traveled with, that allowed him to help struggling churches, etc. What TRUST people must have had in Paul--to give it into his hands and know that this man of God WILL do the right thing, as the Lord leads him.
It occurred to me that we might not think to highly of him if he were on TV. We'd talk about how all he talks about is money, money, money.
But it takes money to do certain things. If you want to walk to the street corner and preach, don't receive an offering. But if you are going to try to go to India--or get on some network to reach a wider audience--money will be required.
I wonder if we would mock him, too?
Notice that people like Mike Murdock (I know that many of you don't care for him; I do like him) often share just wonderful pieces of wisdom and direction...and then also ask for offerings (or as they usually put it, planting a seed). In other words, they are giving the listener very valuable spiritual advice (I trust)...so it shouldn't be untoward to expect the listener to respond by helping that message continue to go forth.
(1 Corinthians 9:11 KJV) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Ministers, when you preach the everlasting Word, is it untoward that those who hear you would support the continued ministry through an offering?
Look closely and you'll find that Paul was not only writing deeply spiritual things to the churches, but was also having to motivate fundraising, etc. Just as the Church of God has tremendous speakers who, send them just about anywhere and they will raise significant funds for the missions, so, too, Paul was the motivational speaker, missionary, and minister all wrapped in one.
Think about it the next time you criticize folks for having the audacity to try to get more from listeners than a dollar bill. (SMILE) |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/16/16 8:08 am
|
|
|
|  |
 |
|
|
| |
bradfreeman |
Good post.
It shouldn't surprise any of us that the God who loved so much that He gave, would produce the fruit of love-motivated giving in us.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
4/16/16 8:48 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Am I the only one who notices that Paul's letters... |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | often include some hint (or very direct statement!) of receiving an offering from the church being addressed? It's as if he writes these letters to be both a blessing...and to procure their assistance as he ministers. The money, it seems, might have been used to help him travel, to help him keep up the evangelistic team that he traveled with, that allowed him to help struggling churches, etc. What TRUST people must have had in Paul--to give it into his hands and know that this man of God WILL do the right thing, as the Lord leads him.
It occurred to me that we might not think to highly of him if he were on TV. We'd talk about how all he talks about is money, money, money.
But it takes money to do certain things. If you want to walk to the street corner and preach, don't receive an offering. But if you are going to try to go to India--or get on some network to reach a wider audience--money will be required.
I wonder if we would mock him, too?
Notice that people like Mike Murdock (I know that many of you don't care for him; I do like him) often share just wonderful pieces of wisdom and direction...and then also ask for offerings (or as they usually put it, planting a seed). In other words, they are giving the listener very valuable spiritual advice (I trust)...so it shouldn't be untoward to expect the listener to respond by helping that message continue to go forth.
(1 Corinthians 9:11 KJV) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Ministers, when you preach the everlasting Word, is it untoward that those who hear you would support the continued ministry through an offering?
Look closely and you'll find that Paul was not only writing deeply spiritual things to the churches, but was also having to motivate fundraising, etc. Just as the Church of God has tremendous speakers who, send them just about anywhere and they will raise significant funds for the missions, so, too, Paul was the motivational speaker, missionary, and minister all wrapped in one.
Think about it the next time you criticize folks for having the audacity to try to get more from listeners than a dollar bill. (SMILE) |
Money to spread the gospel ...yes. Money to build the latest monument to some man's ego......no.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/16/16 9:31 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Am I the only one who notices that Paul's letters... |
bradfreeman |
| Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | often include some hint (or very direct statement!) of receiving an offering from the church being addressed? It's as if he writes these letters to be both a blessing...and to procure their assistance as he ministers. The money, it seems, might have been used to help him travel, to help him keep up the evangelistic team that he traveled with, that allowed him to help struggling churches, etc. What TRUST people must have had in Paul--to give it into his hands and know that this man of God WILL do the right thing, as the Lord leads him.
It occurred to me that we might not think to highly of him if he were on TV. We'd talk about how all he talks about is money, money, money.
But it takes money to do certain things. If you want to walk to the street corner and preach, don't receive an offering. But if you are going to try to go to India--or get on some network to reach a wider audience--money will be required.
I wonder if we would mock him, too?
Notice that people like Mike Murdock (I know that many of you don't care for him; I do like him) often share just wonderful pieces of wisdom and direction...and then also ask for offerings (or as they usually put it, planting a seed). In other words, they are giving the listener very valuable spiritual advice (I trust)...so it shouldn't be untoward to expect the listener to respond by helping that message continue to go forth.
(1 Corinthians 9:11 KJV) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Ministers, when you preach the everlasting Word, is it untoward that those who hear you would support the continued ministry through an offering?
Look closely and you'll find that Paul was not only writing deeply spiritual things to the churches, but was also having to motivate fundraising, etc. Just as the Church of God has tremendous speakers who, send them just about anywhere and they will raise significant funds for the missions, so, too, Paul was the motivational speaker, missionary, and minister all wrapped in one.
Think about it the next time you criticize folks for having the audacity to try to get more from listeners than a dollar bill. (SMILE) |
Money to spread the gospel ...yes. Money to build the latest monument to some man's ego......no. |
So pastors shouldn't buy themselves a new Buick? A new house? A new TV?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
4/16/16 10:34 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Am I the only one who notices that Paul's letters... |
Resident Skeptic |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Resident Skeptic wrote: | | Aaron Scott wrote: | often include some hint (or very direct statement!) of receiving an offering from the church being addressed? It's as if he writes these letters to be both a blessing...and to procure their assistance as he ministers. The money, it seems, might have been used to help him travel, to help him keep up the evangelistic team that he traveled with, that allowed him to help struggling churches, etc. What TRUST people must have had in Paul--to give it into his hands and know that this man of God WILL do the right thing, as the Lord leads him.
It occurred to me that we might not think to highly of him if he were on TV. We'd talk about how all he talks about is money, money, money.
But it takes money to do certain things. If you want to walk to the street corner and preach, don't receive an offering. But if you are going to try to go to India--or get on some network to reach a wider audience--money will be required.
I wonder if we would mock him, too?
Notice that people like Mike Murdock (I know that many of you don't care for him; I do like him) often share just wonderful pieces of wisdom and direction...and then also ask for offerings (or as they usually put it, planting a seed). In other words, they are giving the listener very valuable spiritual advice (I trust)...so it shouldn't be untoward to expect the listener to respond by helping that message continue to go forth.
(1 Corinthians 9:11 KJV) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Ministers, when you preach the everlasting Word, is it untoward that those who hear you would support the continued ministry through an offering?
Look closely and you'll find that Paul was not only writing deeply spiritual things to the churches, but was also having to motivate fundraising, etc. Just as the Church of God has tremendous speakers who, send them just about anywhere and they will raise significant funds for the missions, so, too, Paul was the motivational speaker, missionary, and minister all wrapped in one.
Think about it the next time you criticize folks for having the audacity to try to get more from listeners than a dollar bill. (SMILE) |
Money to spread the gospel ...yes. Money to build the latest monument to some man's ego......no. |
So pastors shouldn't buy themselves a new Buick? A new house? A new TV? |
Those don't constitute monuments to a man's ego. Those are basics of life. A 10,000 seat cathedral who's high water mark was 5000, and a Christian water-slide park are monuments to mans' ego.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/16/16 12:28 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Comparing Paul's fundraising efforts/techniques to those of the Reverend Dr. (yep, the docterate is fake) Wisdom Key Speaker Mike Murdock is like comparing Luther and Tetzel from centuries ago. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/16/16 12:45 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Cojak |
Money is necessary and causes lots of problems. it is hard to get folks to agree on how the money is spent.
LDS I understand, does not pay the local church elder or leader, but tithe is sent to Jerusalem (SLC) local offerings build and pay utilities.
The Catholic does give a stipend to the Priests but the majority of the monies goes to Rome (I understand).
I have a childhood friend who went to Jail for a couple years because he took too much from the widows, for his mansion, Buick and yacht.
I don't care for the slick preachers on TV, but there ain't a lot I can do about the money they raise and how they spend it. I just know it ain't mine.
I am a Dad, GRandpa, and Great Grandpa. I have the BEST advice for my family, I KNOW IT, but they don't seem to think so. I still love the bunch of &^**#@, even though only a couple have taken my advice.
It is hard to have agreement on scripture, it is also hard to have agreement on 'who raises money,' and What they do with it. I will handle mine to the best of my ability. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
4/16/16 10:22 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Amen! |
Aaron Scott |
Indeed, I think we ALL agree that self-aggrandizement is not what Paul was about. Nor should it be what current ministers are about.
HOWEVER, my point is that it seems that just about ANYONE who asks for an offering on a TV network is belittled (at least it seems so). Yes, there's a way that we can keep from needing offerings...DO NOTHING. Stop supporting missionaries...turn off the lights...sell the church...get rid of the piano...on and on.
In fact, there's even a way you can get along without a paycheck yourself! Stop eating. Sleep on the ground. Run around half-naked and never enjoy the most simple of amenities.
I have a feeling that if Paul was on TBN asking for money to support missions or trips, etc., and we found that he stayed anywhere but a run-down 1-star Motel 6, there would be folks who complained ("Let him go back to jail if he wants a place to sleep!")
I'm just wanting to point out that motivating for an offering is not in and of itself wrong. Yes, if that's your only focus, that's a problem. And if you aren't feeding people the word, that's a problem. But if its going to be used for the right things, we should simply keep in mind that it DOES cost money to do things. You may be happy to drive a 1973 rusted-out Ford Pinto, but I would be utterly humiliated if a true man of God was made to feel that he better not have anything better than that or would be criticized.
But ultimately, just start looking in the epistles...and you'll find that Paul hints (or makes it deadly obvious) about the need for offerings to support what he is doing. I don't think I could write such letters, but Paul wasn't ashamed, because he was on a mission from God...and he knew that God would use the people of the Lord to make it all happen. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/16/16 11:34 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Nature Boy Florida |
Aaron...only man on earth who could compare mike Murdoch and Paul favorably. Thanks for the laugh.
If the last 40 chapters of Each of Paul's letters promised 100 fold return on a thousand dollars...then they would be comparable.
Wake-up and smell the gold dust Aaron,
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/17/16 6:35 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | But ultimately, just start looking in the epistles...and you'll find that Paul hints (or makes it deadly obvious) about the need for offerings to support what he is doing. I don't think I could write such letters, but Paul wasn't ashamed, because he was on a mission from God...and he knew that God would use the people of the Lord to make it all happen. |
He had a clean conscience because he was making personal sacrifices to spread the gospel himself. Take a look again at the list of things he said he suffered. Note that he worked a side job as well so as not to be indebted to people.
What is laughable is TV preachers who are asking for more sacrifices from others than they are willing to give themselves.
Also, make note in Paul's writings where he warns of those who want to become rich. Did you ever hear Mike Murdoch say this?
1 Timothy 6:8-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all [a]sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
4/17/16 8:20 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Aaron, |
maqqebet |
you take one passage out of context to portray the Apostle Paul in a post-modern concept.
If you read the passage in context you will discover in vvs, 14-15 that while he justifies those "who proclaim the gospel" are to "get their living from the gospel" [keep reading] But I have used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case..."
Paul could justify how anyone involved in proclaiming the gospel or teaching should be supported, but with the Corinthians he would not be in their debt, even working to keep them from receiving offerings on his behalf.
Instead, his financial/material appeal concerns another issue - the need in Jerusalem. 1 Corinthians 16:1. And he encouraged them to complete this work in 2 Corinthians 8 & 9
To the Philippians Paul offered kind words for their voluntary support when others did not share with him in "the matter of giving and receiving." (Phil 4:15) and added, "Not that I seek the gift itself, but I seek for the profit which increases to your account."
To suggest these are "appeal" letters contradicts the mindset and ministry of the Apostle Paul.
_________________
The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1771
4/17/16 3:52 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Friends, friends, friends! |
Aaron Scott |
Have I not made it clear that I am NOT speaking of those who receive offerings for their own self-aggrandizement? I am opposed to such things also!
Consider that just about ANYONE who apparently spends more than 30 seconds on where you can send you offering...that is, if you WANT to send and offering...NOT that you have to...but only if you really, really, really WANT to....catches flack for the same. My point is to say that we need to realize that it does take money to run TV networks and the such.
I happen to like Murdock, yes. If you don't, I'm sorry. But my point is not to justify him particularly, but to simply point out that it shouldn't be odd to us that offerings are received for other outreaches that are not directly inside our churches. IT TAKES MONEY. Paul knew that.
Now, if ya'll see it differently (and apparently you do), then just keep doing whatever it is you're doing. But I am wanting to open my spirit just a bit more to those who I think are truly preaching the gospel...and need money to do it.
That's just me. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/17/16 4:40 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Have I not made it clear that I am NOT speaking of those who receive offerings for their own self-aggrandizement? |
Certainly not. You brought up the name Mike Murdoch, and it is not clear at all that he does not receive offerings to increase his personal wealth. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
4/17/16 6:14 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Friends, friends, friends! |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | I am NOT speaking of those who receive offerings for their own self-aggrandizement? I am opposed to such things also!.............................I happen to like Murdock, yes. If you don't, I'm sorry. |
Your comments are oxymoronic and contradictory, Aaron. On the one hand you despise self-aggrandizement, while in the same breath you state that you like the Wisdom Key magnate himself. I can think of few (perhaps Tilton) more into self-aggrandizement than Micko the Murdock.
Its like sayin I hate WOF, but I really like Copeland. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/17/16 7:12 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| |
Cojak |
For many it seems to be a confidence game. Most do not even realize what con-game is.
In construction I have had customers ask, "How much do I have to pay up front?" I explained why no one should pay up front.
That comes to mind because a niece of mine this week gave a man $1000 cash toWARD a job 'he was going to do'. He didn't and the phone number he gave is disconnected or no longer in service."
We talked, Her answer was, "He seemed so nice. His card has a Fish on it, and a scripture verse. he even quoted a scripture in our conversation, now I cannot find him and I have found two more people the same thing has happened to, same guy."
I explained the con-game. The dude gets your CONFIDENCE, that is how they get away with it. There are preachers in the same ball game.
Have you ever noticed, we judge people by what they do, then we judge ourselves on what we plan to do. 
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24277
4/17/16 10:02 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Well, Aaron, |
maqqebet |
I'm not addressing keeping an open mind regarding appeals worthy or unworthy men/women/ministries may make.
I addressed the fact you took a passage out of context to suggest the Apostle Paul "hinted" to congregations they should send him an offering.
There is nothing in any of Paul's letters to support your position, rather, Paul goes to great lengths to point out he did not make any appeals.
He did commend those supporting him with their unsolicited gifts and he did address receiving an offering for the church in Jerusalem during their need.
You can keep an open mind, and that is commendable. I, too, try to discern if my gifts go to viable works because I believe it is good stewardship.
_________________
The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB) |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1771
4/17/16 11:11 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Well, Aaron, |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| maqqebet wrote: | I addressed the fact you took a passage out of context to suggest the Apostle Paul "hinted" to congregations they should send him an offering.
There is nothing in any of Paul's letters to support your position, rather, Paul goes to great lengths to point out he did not make any appeals. |
As is usually the case, a faulty hermeneutic! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/18/16 2:20 am
|
|
|
| |
|
| Maqqebet |
Aaron Scott |
| My friend, you and I must be reading different Bibles. Do this: read his epistles and purposely listen for the hints appeals. I think you'll see it differently then. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/18/16 6:59 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Maqqebet |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | My friend, you and I must be reading different Bibles. Do this: read his epistles and purposely listen for the hints appeals. I think you'll see it differently then. |
The offerings to which you allude were not received to fill Paul's coffers and make him rich, or enable him to have the most up to date chariot and horse. These offerings were received to meet the needs of other churches that were in need. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/18/16 7:19 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
| Re: Maqqebet |
mytimewillcome |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: |
The offerings to which you allude were not received to fill Paul's coffers and make him rich, or enable him to have the most up to date chariot and horse. These offerings were received to meet the needs of other churches that were in need. |
Well done, OTCP.  |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
4/18/16 7:48 pm
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
