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 Does God Make Mistakes??? The Transgender Debate |
Aaron Scott |
To my knowledge, while I have gay friends, etc., I do not know of any that are "transgender" (unless the "butch" look for lesbians is considered that--I simply don't know).
So...does God make mistakes? Can someone be born with a male body...but a female "spirit" (so to speak)?
I must tell you that I think there is at least SOME truth to the claim that this can happen. NOT because God makes mistakes. My friends, God created a PERFECT world...and it is now fallen into sinful ruin. Babies are born every day that will live for minutes, painfully, then die. This is NOT God's plan...but it is what happens in a fallen world.
Just as I don't think it's God plan that a child be born with a horrible deformity, depriving that child of so many of life's pleasures and experiences, neither do I believe that God WANTS a woman to be born in a man's body. But the fallen nature of our world lets us know that there are LOTS of things that happen that God would never have wanted.
Most of us are to the point where we now understand that our gay friends didn't wake up one day and "decide" to be gay. We aren't saying they were BORN that way...but we can be sure that something very early on--anything perhaps from abuse to simple observation of gender roles being acted out inappropriately (e.g., weak fathers, over-dominant mothers, who knows--I've read of these sorts of things, though)--in fact, so early one it is not even remembered, perhaps...has made an impression that has caused a precious child to have feelings that he/she cannot even understand...and then must often try to hide. God forbid it would be your child our my child! I think, to be honest, I am more concerned with the deep pain and loneliness a child must feel from trying to conceal what he or she doesn't even understand...than I am with the actual fact that they are gay (BOTH things matter...but it would crush my soul to think a child of mine suffered so deeply in silence, afraid to tell me their heart.)
So, indeed, I believe a person CAN be born "deformed" in ways that are not physical. For me, the issue is NOT does this happen. I think it clearly does. But rather, WHAT DO WE DO?
For one, I think most of us know that letting people go into whatever restroom they wish is not the answer.
At the same time, neither is humiliation and castigation. We are to love them ALL. Jesus certainly would have. You would NEVER find Jesus looking askance at some transgender person, I don't believe. Instead, I think you would find Him engaging with them, demonstrating love, and HEALING them.
A healing is needed. Just as with a sick or deformed child. A healing is needed. It might be immediate...but God just might call upon us to show a long period of care and concern, as if regularly sitting by their sick bed, holding them up in prayer, until healing comes (in this world or the next).
Yes, you know I believe in the faith message. I also know that there are many times I don't have the level of faith needed to see immediate/miraculous healings. That doesn't mean I can't keep praying, for Jesus will often do for us EVENTUALLY what He will not do IMMEDIATELY...if we'll keep praying.
Just my thoughts. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/16/16 7:56 am
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| Re: Does God Make Mistakes??? The Transgender Debate |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | To my knowledge, while I have gay friends, etc., I do not know of any that are "transgender" (unless the "butch" look for lesbians is considered that--I simply don't know).
So...does God make mistakes? Can someone be born with a male body...but a female "spirit" (so to speak)?
I must tell you that I think there is at least SOME truth to the claim that this can happen. NOT because God makes mistakes. My friends, God created a PERFECT world...and it is now fallen into sinful ruin. Babies are born every day that will live for minutes, painfully, then die. This is NOT God's plan...but it is what happens in a fallen world.
Just as I don't think it's God plan that a child be born with a horrible deformity, depriving that child of so many of life's pleasures and experiences, neither do I believe that God WANTS a woman to be born in a man's body. But the fallen nature of our world lets us know that there are LOTS of things that happen that God would never have wanted.
Most of us are to the point where we now understand that our gay friends didn't wake up one day and "decide" to be gay. We aren't saying they were BORN that way...but we can be sure that something very early on--anything perhaps from abuse to simple observation of gender roles being acted out inappropriately (e.g., weak fathers, over-dominant mothers, who knows--I've read of these sorts of things, though)--in fact, so early one it is not even remembered, perhaps...has made an impression that has caused a precious child to have feelings that he/she cannot even understand...and then must often try to hide. God forbid it would be your child our my child! I think, to be honest, I am more concerned with the deep pain and loneliness a child must feel from trying to conceal what he or she doesn't even understand...than I am with the actual fact that they are gay (BOTH things matter...but it would crush my soul to think a child of mine suffered so deeply in silence, afraid to tell me their heart.)
So, indeed, I believe a person CAN be born "deformed" in ways that are not physical. For me, the issue is NOT does this happen. I think it clearly does. But rather, WHAT DO WE DO?
For one, I think most of us know that letting people go into whatever restroom they wish is not the answer.
At the same time, neither is humiliation and castigation. We are to love them ALL. Jesus certainly would have. You would NEVER find Jesus looking askance at some transgender person, I don't believe. Instead, I think you would find Him engaging with them, demonstrating love, and HEALING them.
A healing is needed. Just as with a sick or deformed child. A healing is needed. It might be immediate...but God just might call upon us to show a long period of care and concern, as if regularly sitting by their sick bed, holding them up in prayer, until healing comes (in this world or the next).
Yes, you know I believe in the faith message. I also know that there are many times I don't have the level of faith needed to see immediate/miraculous healings. That doesn't mean I can't keep praying, for Jesus will often do for us EVENTUALLY what He will not do IMMEDIATELY...if we'll keep praying.
Just my thoughts. |
I don't disagree with much of what you say here. A person can possibly be born with a mental problem that causes gender identity confusion just as someone can acquire a mental disorder, through no fault of their own, that makes them think they are Henry VIII. Neither should be celebrated.
The one with the gender identity confusion should not be allowed to marry someone of their sex or use a public bathroom that is intended for someone of an opposite gender than them just as someone who thinks they are Henry VIII should not be granted an audience with the President as a visiting head of State. Both are delusional.
Love them. Minister to them. Pray for them. Do not accommodate them or celebrate their mental disease.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
Last edited by Resident Skeptic on 4/16/16 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/16/16 8:03 am
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bradfreeman |
God doesn't make mistakes. People do.
But our mistakes were laid on the body of Jesus and dealt with at the cross. For all those who believe, He remembers our mistakes no more.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
4/16/16 8:49 am
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| Re: Does God Make Mistakes??? The Transgender Debate |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | To my knowledge, while I have gay friends, etc., I do not know of any that are "transgender" (unless the "butch" look for lesbians is considered that--I simply don't know). |
Aaron, what are you describing when you reference "The Butch Look?" |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15566
4/16/16 12:54 pm
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c6thplayer1 |
Heres my take ; God created man and woman Perfectly... He also created genetics and the laws of physics. from these two perfect human beings came offspring and from them came more until the earth was populated.
During this time mans habits and lifestyle changed and so did his and her bodies as the laws of physics took place. His and her bodies were no longer perfect resulting in offspring that was less than perfect when compared to Gods first creation.
This imperfection is more prevalent in some than others and has a greater affect on offspring. So , God did not personally create all babies that suffer with birth defections such as downs syndrome etc , he created the mechanism by which a child is born. It is that mechanisms ability to create perfection that has changed. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6385
4/16/16 5:22 pm
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| Re: Does God Make Mistakes??? The Transgender Debate |
skinnybishop |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | To my knowledge, while I have gay friends, etc., I do not know of any that are "transgender" (unless the "butch" look for lesbians is considered that--I simply don't know).
So...does God make mistakes? Can someone be born with a male body...but a female "spirit" (so to speak)?
I must tell you that I think there is at least SOME truth to the claim that this can happen. NOT because God makes mistakes. My friends, God created a PERFECT world...and it is now fallen into sinful ruin. Babies are born every day that will live for minutes, painfully, then die. This is NOT God's plan...but it is what happens in a fallen world.
Just as I don't think it's God plan that a child be born with a horrible deformity, depriving that child of so many of life's pleasures and experiences, neither do I believe that God WANTS a woman to be born in a man's body. But the fallen nature of our world lets us know that there are LOTS of things that happen that God would never have wanted.
Most of us are to the point where we now understand that our gay friends didn't wake up one day and "decide" to be gay. We aren't saying they were BORN that way...but we can be sure that something very early on--anything perhaps from abuse to simple observation of gender roles being acted out inappropriately (e.g., weak fathers, over-dominant mothers, who knows--I've read of these sorts of things, though)--in fact, so early one it is not even remembered, perhaps...has made an impression that has caused a precious child to have feelings that he/she cannot even understand...and then must often try to hide. God forbid it would be your child our my child! I think, to be honest, I am more concerned with the deep pain and loneliness a child must feel from trying to conceal what he or she doesn't even understand...than I am with the actual fact that they are gay (BOTH things matter...but it would crush my soul to think a child of mine suffered so deeply in silence, afraid to tell me their heart.)
So, indeed, I believe a person CAN be born "deformed" in ways that are not physical. For me, the issue is NOT does this happen. I think it clearly does. But rather, WHAT DO WE DO?
For one, I think most of us know that letting people go into whatever restroom they wish is not the answer.
At the same time, neither is humiliation and castigation. We are to love them ALL. Jesus certainly would have. You would NEVER find Jesus looking askance at some transgender person, I don't believe. Instead, I think you would find Him engaging with them, demonstrating love, and HEALING them.
A healing is needed. Just as with a sick or deformed child. A healing is needed. It might be immediate...but God just might call upon us to show a long period of care and concern, as if regularly sitting by their sick bed, holding them up in prayer, until healing comes (in this world or the next).
Yes, you know I believe in the faith message. I also know that there are many times I don't have the level of faith needed to see immediate/miraculous healings. That doesn't mean I can't keep praying, for Jesus will often do for us EVENTUALLY what He will not do IMMEDIATELY...if we'll keep praying.
Just my thoughts. |
There is a LOT I don't understand about homosexuality, transgenderism, etc. But I think you are going to have an uphill climb suggesting that transgenderism (or whatever the term is) is a disability or deformity. Society wants us to believe that condition is perfectly normal....and people in those circumstances should be treated no differently than anyone else. What you have suggested sounds perfectly legitimate to me....but will likely get you the firing squad in todays PC world.
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Eddie Wiggins |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1055
4/16/16 7:26 pm
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| skinnybishop |
Aaron Scott |
I hear you, man. I just think that we, the church, should understand that there are broken people. Not just physically, but in this case, perhaps mentally/emotionally, etc.
Clearly, something is wrong when you feel so disassociated with your physical body that you feel it's not really you. I can't understand it. All we can do is love and pray for them.
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am NOT AT ALL justifying this as acceptable or that we should make undue allowances for such folks. No, I'm just saying that if we can understand that the devil, the curse, sin, etc., can mess people over until they are twisted out their natural shape, we can perhaps sympathize and show greater love and concern. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
4/16/16 11:54 pm
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| Re: skinnybishop |
Resident Skeptic |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | I hear you, man. I just think that we, the church, should understand that there are broken people. Not just physically, but in this case, perhaps mentally/emotionally, etc.
Clearly, something is wrong when you feel so disassociated with your physical body that you feel it's not really you. I can't understand it. All we can do is love and pray for them.
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am NOT AT ALL justifying this as acceptable or that we should make undue allowances for such folks. No, I'm just saying that if we can understand that the devil, the curse, sin, etc., can mess people over until they are twisted out their natural shape, we can perhaps sympathize and show greater love and concern. |
Amen.
_________________
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 8065
4/17/16 8:16 am
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Da Sheik |
I think many of these issues are worthy of discussion and unfortunately we (the church ) always take a reductionist approach. By that, I mean we attribute almost everything to a spiritual issue instead of accepting that there are a myriad of physiological and psychological issues that also might be in play. I know people who believe epilepsy is demonic in nature.
This particular issue is difficult for me to relate to personally because I have never questioned my gender or orientation. But I have family members who consider themselves gay/lesbian and they assure me it's not something they ever "chose" for themselves but something they felt for as long as they can remember.
I don't want to derail this thread but we could possibly expand it to many other issues like addiction. Many people are genetically predisposed to being an alcoholic for example. That doesn't make it right or justifiable. But I wish I had the answers. All I can do is follow what the bible says and try to have compassion on all. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
4/17/16 4:51 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Every time I see an Aaron post - I too wonder if God sometimes makes mistakes! (just kidding)
I agree with Sheik. Too many folks are "deformed" mentally at birth - which gives them tendencies to do stupid things.
They need help to change - to overcome - not celebration.
When medicine isn't allowed to help them - because it might make them feel bad to think they are different - a nation is destroyed - and stupid laws are made.
When a society celebrates these mistakes - chaos ensues.
When a church labels them beyond help and shuns them - or cowers down because folks call them haters for not celebrating them like Hollywood or the Boss does - Jesus weeps.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
4/17/16 6:27 pm
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