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Lee Theology Department Statement on...
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Post UncleJD
Cojak wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Dr. Christopher, son, you done stirred up a hornets nest now. Laughing


I am sure Bro Christopher knows that. (doesn't he?)


Quick, someone start a Trump thread so we can get along better!
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4/5/16 9:40 pm


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Post Cojak
Da Sheik wrote:
I have no interest in debating this. I would never sit under a woman pastor. Not because she is inferior as a person but because she is biblically disqualified. I really wonder about some of you guys. I think your bible must read "husbands obey your wives in all things". It has nothing to do with gender discrimination.


I understand your position. I am much more liberal than most COG members. Having been raised that the Bible is not debatable many things confuse the uneducated. Many years ago ministers used the words, The scripture says this, but what it REALLY MEANS IS THIS.

Now you educated guys who can exegesis scripture, I think that means interpret according to age, situation and culture, but I am not sure.

So we that sit in the pew try to read in between the lines and live according to our conscience. I have become more liberal in my thinking. I am not sure I would appreciate a Lady Pastor but I have known some very good lady ministers in my life.

But in saying that, it has always baffled me at licensing females and limiting their abilities in things such as the sacraments.

But yes my friend, when you read it, it says what it says. Does that mean it can change? I could ask a lot of questions, but I am definitely not smart enough to debate it.

PS: MY lady doctors and surgeons are very capable also. Smile Cool
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4/5/16 9:55 pm


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Post Re: To Nature Boy Old Time Country Preacher
mytwocents wrote:
However, the perception this gives me is one of arrogant educators thumbing their nose at a governing body.
I sensed the same arrogance form PTS faculty at assemblies where the issue was debated and voted on and since i have encouraged people NOT to attend nor support PTS. It is not the issue, it is the arrogance.


2cents, what you have perceived as arrogance is nothing more than men/women who have devoted their lives to text of Scripture. I've been in the same assemblies you reference, when biblical scholars like Chris Thomas, Cheryl Johns, et al, gave a clear, concise, scholarly presentation of an issue, with no arrogance, but with humility. I have then seen some hot headed preacher go to the mike and say something stupid and condescending like "I don't know what the Greek says, but I know what my King James Bible says, and a large group would roar with approval. If you deem this to be arrogance on the part of those given to scholarly presentations, you have sadly mistaken.
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4/5/16 10:41 pm


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Post Cojak
I have no doubt there are good, honest dedicated people on both sides. Not all who 'differ' are of the red-neck quality of KJV only. Bible scholars differ, I do not see in the next few years anyone having enough 'pull' or ability to get this approved by our GA. If it is passed it will be equivalent to passing the wedding band.

I was not there, but my dad was. He said if it had not been for Wade Horton, who was strongly against the wedding band, standing and urging unity after the vote, he felt the church would have split.

DO WE have that voice now? Is the subject strong enough to cause a 'MAJOR SPLIT' in our church. As one who now warms a bench, I do not know enought of the leading ministers who could hold it together, I do hope there is THAT VOICE, because I do love and appreciate this church. It is part of my life, a big part.

Is this subject STRAYING from the Word? Confused Confused
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4/5/16 11:56 pm


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Post My thoughts.... Aaron Scott
BOTH sides of this issue have good, godly, and sincere folks.

However, both sides are not equally supported by Scripture...or the Spirit. If we make this change, the Holy Ghost will continue to save and reach those who are lost. The church will not fly off the tracks as soon as the vote is over. Jesus is to gracious for that. But there are always consequences for failing to discern His voice....

If there are wrong intentions on either side, it might be that those will be visited upon us. I have this suspicion that if women get these rights...but then subsequently do not soon rise to key levels of leadership, we will hear more on this (perhaps a certain percentage of seats will be requested set aside just for women, etc.?).

Academia does not have the scriptural backing on this that the other side does. That doesn't mean academia is not filled with sincerity and love. Rather, they are simply coming from a place where more than scripture is being weighed. They are looking at scripture, cultural norms (within Christian boundaries, of course), and so forth.

The other side (us) tends to focus ONLY on the scriptures...sometimes to our detriment. Consider that if we went ONLY on the scriptures, then it is a "settled," if contradictory fact, that women are to keep silent in church. In the vast majority of believers, we find a way to at least allow the ladies to teach Sunday School, sing, testify, speak in tongues, etc. It's a good thing we allowed a little common sense to go along with our scripture, right?

At the same time, it does sting when, even though we pay--or have paid--many bills to keep Lee going, our views as sincere, Church of God folks is apparently renounced.... Kind of like Mom and Dad laboring for years to put a child through university, only to have the child return after graduation to tell the parents they are really not very bright, that atheism is the only logical path, etc. Just an imperfect analogy, but you get the idea.

Lastly, while we must take more than just the text into account, we must not give more weight to those non-textual elements. We are a supernatural people. God has us believe and do things that are at odds with everything from science to finance (e.g., five loaves and two fishes will not feed 5000 people...and then have more than you started with...unless God gets in it, as He did in my IRA some years ago). So we best take care that in our well-intentioned efforts to take a holistic view, we do not flaunt the act of faith and obedience that God placed to bless us.
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4/6/16 6:41 am


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Post Re: To Eddie Eddie Robbins
mytwocents wrote:
Actually the Church of God COULD quite easily shut Lee down. They wont, but they could.
First all the property of Lee is actually property of the Church of God.
Second, while the President is selected by the BOD of Lee, the BOD is selected every two years by the COG executive committee.


It can't be done in that if the COG closed it down, it would go bankrupt. They couldn't sell it to anybody other than Lee. As for the president selection, I know how it works and if there was an agenda to oust the current president, he would be retired by the time they pulled it off. The COG can only change 2 BOD at a time.
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4/6/16 7:23 am


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Post Well, it's nice to see the COG brotherjames
finally come to the same conclusion the AG has had since 1917. Da Sheik is wrong on this and should prayerfully consider the carefully thought out scriptural basis tha Lee used to come to this conclusion. Acts-celerater
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4/6/16 7:39 am


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Post Re: Lee Theology Department Statement on... wayne
skinnybishop wrote:
Christopher Stephenson wrote:
Women in Ministry.

I am proud of my colleagues in the Department of Theology, who recently adopted the below statement affirming the Department's support for women in ministry. At times, I am especially excited to be part of the Department of Theology, and this is one of those times.

...............................

"Statement on Women in Ministry"

"The Department of Theology supports the full participation of women in all vocations of the church. We affirm that God the Father incorporates persons into the body of his Son Jesus Christ and pours out the Holy Spirit upon them without discriminating according to their sex. We affirm that God calls women to every activity, office, and level of ordination in the church. We both renounce any restrictions on the ministry of women based solely on their sex and commit ourselves to the removal of any such restrictions. Finally, we strive to provide a learning atmosphere in which women can find their voices and discern, understand, and pursue their many indispensable vocations."


Interesting. I think the Department of Theology has the right to express their opinion and position. But I have a problem with them announcing, as a department, the specific mission of removing ministry restrictions on women. I think the Department of Theology should teach, not go on crusades and draw battle lines, no matter the issue at hand. The Department has decided to draw a line in the sand by stating "We renounce any restrictions on the ministry of women". At the present time, that body has renounced a portion of the Minutes of the General Assembly of the Church of God.

Its not about wanting to see women bishops...its about announcing a mission in conflict with the denomination and that seems to be beyond the scope of an academic department that concerns me.
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4/6/16 7:41 am


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Post Sorry JimmieDavis
But until Lee's religion department has more COG ministers in it then it does liberal theologians who teach stuff we don't embrace as a denomination, they can keep their opinions to themselves. I don't give a flying flip what the religion department thinks. Majority of them aren't even Church of God. Friendly Face
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4/6/16 9:11 am


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Post Re: My thoughts.... skinnybishop
Aaron Scott wrote:
BOTH sides of this issue have good, godly, and sincere folks.

However, both sides are not equally supported by Scripture...or the Spirit. If we make this change, the Holy Ghost will continue to save and reach those who are lost. The church will not fly off the tracks as soon as the vote is over. Jesus is to gracious for that. But there are always consequences for failing to discern His voice....

If there are wrong intentions on either side, it might be that those will be visited upon us. I have this suspicion that if women get these rights...but then subsequently do not soon rise to key levels of leadership, we will hear more on this (perhaps a certain percentage of seats will be requested set aside just for women, etc.?).

Academia does not have the scriptural backing on this that the other side does. That doesn't mean academia is not filled with sincerity and love. Rather, they are simply coming from a place where more than scripture is being weighed. They are looking at scripture, cultural norms (within Christian boundaries, of course), and so forth.

The other side (us) tends to focus ONLY on the scriptures...sometimes to our detriment. Consider that if we went ONLY on the scriptures, then it is a "settled," if contradictory fact, that women are to keep silent in church. In the vast majority of believers, we find a way to at least allow the ladies to teach Sunday School, sing, testify, speak in tongues, etc. It's a good thing we allowed a little common sense to go along with our scripture, right?

At the same time, it does sting when, even though we pay--or have paid--many bills to keep Lee going, our views as sincere, Church of God folks is apparently renounced.... Kind of like Mom and Dad laboring for years to put a child through university, only to have the child return after graduation to tell the parents they are really not very bright, that atheism is the only logical path, etc. Just an imperfect analogy, but you get the idea.

Lastly, while we must take more than just the text into account, we must not give more weight to those non-textual elements. We are a supernatural people. God has us believe and do things that are at odds with everything from science to finance (e.g., five loaves and two fishes will not feed 5000 people...and then have more than you started with...unless God gets in it, as He did in my IRA some years ago). So we best take care that in our well-intentioned efforts to take a holistic view, we do not flaunt the act of faith and obedience that God placed to bless us.


I think you are right on one thing....Once restrictions on female ministers are removed, the next step will be to require a certain number of ladies on the Executive Committee, Council of 18 etc. That kind of thing was introduced at the last Assembly, concerning younger ministers.

Pretty soon, the Executive Committee will be required to look like this:

One female
One international person
One person under 30
One pastor of a church under 100
One unrestricted member
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4/6/16 9:33 am


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Post Re: My thoughts.... Cojak
Aaron Scott wrote:
BOTH sides of this issue have good, godly, and sincere folks.

However, both sides are not equally supported by Scripture...or the Spirit. If we make this change, the Holy Ghost will continue to save and reach those who are lost. ...
Lastly, while we must take more than just the text into account, we must not give more weight to those non-textual elements. We are a supernatural people. God has us believe and do things that are at odds with everything from science to finance (e.g., five loaves and two fishes will not feed 5000 people...and then have more than you started with...unless God gets in it, as He did in my IRA some years ago). So we best take care that in our well-intentioned efforts to take a holistic view, we do not flaunt the act of faith and obedience that God placed to bless us.


My wife, and partner of 60 years, just asked me when she would get the next installment, so I sent it. Smile Thanks.

Now, DA Shiek rightly said he was not debating this subject. It is easy to see his point, there will be no winner here. Most have their 'firm beliefs' along these line, 'cept me. I really do not know where to hang my hat so I won't.
In life as in scripture, we have designated 'experts', some educated many not. BOTH sides can give convincing arguments. i.e. Climate change and belief in verbal inspiration of scripture. Things that can keep the 'less knowledgeable' awake at nights if we are not careful. To be honest it makes me uncomfortable.
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4/6/16 9:51 am


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Post Da Sheik
I'm just curious. How many female pastors have a history of effective ministry? I mean no disrespect to females whatsoever. I believe they are equal to men. God even showed us we need each other because the only way a man can come into the world is through a female's womb. We need each other. This has nothing to do with women being inferior or men lording over women.

Most of the churches (that I personally know of ) who are led by women pastors are really small and tend to struggle immensely. I guess I just wonder why there is the incessant agenda of making women "bishops ". I will however concede that it is ludicrous for us (the COG) to ordain women to pastor churches but deny them other privileges. The inconsistency is absurd.
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4/6/16 12:38 pm


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Post Re: Sorry Andrew Eastes
JimmieDavis wrote:
But until Lee's religion department has more COG ministers in it then it does liberal theologians who teach stuff we don't embrace as a denomination, they can keep their opinions to themselves. I don't give a flying flip what the religion department thinks. Majority of them aren't even Church of God.


Having just graduated from the Department of Theology this past year, I can assure you that every theologian on the faculty attends a Church of God congregation, and several of them are Ordained Ministers or Bishops in the Church of God. I have had long conversations with each of them in which they demonstrated great love for the church at large and the Church of God in particular. I would not consider a single one of them to be "liberal," and I was never given any reason to think that any of them weren't "even Church of God" either in belief or practice. With all due respect, your comment demonstrates that you are out of touch with what is currently happening at Lee. For more on what is really happening at Lee these days, I would direct you to a post I made last year that directly responds to your concerns of Lee being liberal: http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=82327&highlight=lee
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4/6/16 12:41 pm


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Post Andrew JimmieDavis
You are a nice guy. Your assertion is delusional. Not everyone in the religion department goes to cog. And there most certainly are liberal theologians at Lee. It is a well documented fact. Friendly Face
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4/6/16 12:55 pm


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Post Well, Sheik brotherjames
here is an article from the AG Enrichment magazine http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/199904/060_women.cfm
that has a short list of some of the influential women of Pentecost includes Maria Woodworth Etter and Kathryn Kuhlman to name just two. THere is a woman named Dr. (earned from AG seminary OTCP) Maria Kahleel in Pembrook Fl who is one of the most dynamic, powerful preachers of the Full GO\ospel I have ever heard. Here is a short bio of her (Maria Khaleel is senior pastor of New Life Assembly, Pembroke, Florida. She started the church in 1992.It is a multicultural congregation, with over 30 nationalities represented, and over 700 in attendance, 80 percent of which are first-time converts. She was ordained in 1988, and became the first woman to be elected as presbyter in the Peninsular Florida District of the Assemblies of God in 1998, a position that she served in until 2006. She has also served on the National Evangelism Committee and on the National Women in Ministry Task Force.)
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4/6/16 12:57 pm


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Post The statement is now available... Christopher Stephenson
on the Department of Theology Facebook page. Friendly Face
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4/6/16 1:23 pm


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Post Re: Andrew Andrew Eastes
JimmieDavis wrote:
You are a nice guy. Your assertion is delusional. Not everyone in the religion department goes to cog. And there most certainly are liberal theologians at Lee. It is a well documented fact.


To respond, my claim was restricted specifically to the theologians since that is the group that you claimed to be liberal. In fact, they do all attend Church of God congregations. In regards to the entire School of Religion, the overwhelming majority of them attend a Church of God congregation. Those who do not attend a Church of God have never said anything in class that would lead me to think that they are against what the church stands for and teaches on foundational issues (e.g., the Declaration of Faith).

Going back to the theologians on faculty, I would like to respond to your claims of them being liberal. Given that I have read almost all of the published works by these theologians and have spent countless hours talking to them personally, I would be aware of any "well document fact" about them being liberal and can think of no reason to assert that. Once again, I do not mean to be rude or demeaning in any way, but I cannot find any basis for your claims.
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4/6/16 1:25 pm


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Post Re: Andrew Old Time Country Preacher
Andrew Eastes wrote:
JimmieDavis wrote:
You are a nice guy. Your assertion is delusional. Not everyone in the religion department goes to cog. And there most certainly are liberal theologians at Lee. It is a well documented fact.


To respond, my claim was restricted specifically to the theologians since that is the group that you claimed to be liberal. In fact, they do all attend Church of God congregations. In regards to the entire School of Religion, the overwhelming majority of them attend a Church of God congregation. Those who do not attend a Church of God have never said anything in class that would lead me to think that they are against what the church stands for and teaches on foundational issues (e.g., the Declaration of Faith).

Going back to the theologians on faculty, I would like to respond to your claims of them being liberal. Given that I have read almost all of the published works by these theologians and have spent countless hours talking to them personally, I would be aware of any "well document fact" about them being liberal and can think of no reason to assert that. Once again, I do not mean to be rude or demeaning in any way, but I cannot find any basis for your claims.


Andrew, don't let Jimmie intimidate ya or git ya riled up. Jimmie has called the ole timer a arrogant thug, so this if par fer the course. Them boys in the theology/religion dept is straight up, so don't let a few Acts-to-grinders shoosh ya on this one.
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4/6/16 1:32 pm


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Post Re: Andrew Old Time Country Preacher
JimmieDavis wrote:
Your assertion is delusional. Not everyone in the religion department goes to cog. And there most certainly are liberal theologians at Lee. It is a well documented fact.


Jimmie, could you please provide some of this "well documented fact?"

Names?
Sources?
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4/6/16 1:33 pm


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Post Da Sheik Change Agent
If you go to the GA you will see a woman pastor who pastors 10,000 people overseas. See can speak at the GA but cannot vote have any higher position than she has currently (unless God promotes). You belittle the capability of women in ministry. Probably why there are no women leading 10,000 member churches in USA. Women across the board in USA get little or no encouragement for their ministerial accomplishments. Acts Enthusiast
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4/6/16 2:20 pm


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