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Jesus' Seamless Robe Proof that He was RICH? Ludicrous!!!!!!!
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Post Re: And.. Old Time Country Preacher
renewal wrote:
They never stated that he was not a Rabbi..Remember what Nicodemus called him in John 3:2 a Rabbi..

So he was...


Nicodemus referenced him as such because he saw him as one come from God, and he used a title of respect to address him. This does not mean Jesus was a practicing Rabbi with full rabbinical rights/regalia/etc. The Sanhedrin did many things that violated their own laws. The illegal trial. The trial at night. The deception/conniving in dealing with Judas. To let him speak in their midst did not mean he was a practicing Rabbi.
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3/22/16 2:15 pm


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Post You did.. renewal
OTCP. yes you did by adding it to you list of items you deem unfit for research...

By the way I never cited you in any post did I?

Guilty conscience?

Nuff said..
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3/22/16 2:18 pm


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Post Re: You did.. Old Time Country Preacher
renewal wrote:
OTCP. yes you did by adding it to you list of items you deem unfit for research...

By the way I never cited you in any post did I?

Guilty conscience?

Nuff said..


Nuttin to be guilty about. Just cause a feller lists the criteria for solid substantive research don't mean he's makin fun of what aint.
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3/22/16 2:19 pm


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Post Cite Please.. renewal
Otcp, Can you tell me that he wasn't?

Have you done any research on the subject?

If, so please cite references and I will look them up...


Waiting.......
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3/22/16 2:20 pm


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Post Re: Cite Please.. Old Time Country Preacher
renewal wrote:
Otcp, Can you tell me that he wasn't?

Have you done any research on the subject?

If, so please cite references and I will look them up...


Waiting.......



Matthew, Mark, Luke & John
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3/22/16 8:32 pm


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Post Search... renewal
OTCP, You cited Matt, Mark, Luke and John...Wonderful...


Therefore you cannot cite any other source for your "research" from this point onward...

And you cannot state what is the correct sources for your search or not.

You now can only limit yourself to the message in the word itself not other cite references...

You were the one who limited yourself...I sure did not limit you...

Any reference you make from this point onward I will ask for the reference in the word nothing else..

You cannot, quote, cite, make any reference to anything else...

Why because you were unable or unwilling to cite a reference where it states Jesus was not a Rabbi...The word never states that he was not..

If it does cite it and I will stand corrected...

Waiting again..
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3/23/16 12:42 pm


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Post diakoneo
Quote:
Smith's Bible Dictionary:
Rabbi. A title of respect signifying master, teacher, given by the Jews to their doctors and teachers, and often addressed to our Lord. Mat_23:7-8; Mat_26:25; Mat_26:49; Mar_9:6; Mar_11:21; Mar_14:45; Joh_1:38; Joh_1:49; Joh_3:2; Joh_3:26; Joh_4:31; Joh_6:25; Joh_9:2; Joh_11:8.
Another form of the title was Rabboni. Joh_20:16. The titles were used with different degrees of honor; the lowest being rab, master; then rabbi, my master; next, rabban, our master; and greatest of all, Rabboni, my great master.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
rab�ı̄, rab�i (רבּי, rabbı̄; ῥαββί, rhabbı́, or ῥαββεί, rhabbeı́): A term used by the Jews of their religious teachers as a title of respect, from רב, rabh, �great,� so �my great one� (compare Latin magister), once of masters of slaves, but later of teachers (Mat_23:7); therefore translated by διδάκαλος, didáskalos, �teacher� (Mat_23:8; Joh_1:38; compare Joh_1:49). In the King James Version frequently rendered �Master� (Mat_26:25, Mat_26:49; Mar_9:5; Mar_11:21; Mar_14:45; Joh_4:31; Joh_9:2; Joh_11:Cool. John the Baptist (Joh_3:26), as well as Christ, is addressed with the title (Joh_1:49; Joh_6:25), both by disciples and others. Jesus forbade its use among His followers (Mat_23:Cool. Later (Galilean) form of same, RABBONI (which see). See TALMUD for Rabbinical literature.

Fausett's Bible Dictionary:
("great.") Simeon (identified by some with him who took the infant Jesus in his arms: Luk_2:25 ff) son of Hillel, shortly before Christ, was the first doctor of the law with the title Rabban (higher than Rabbi), Rabbi (higher than Rab). The disciples applied it to Christ (Mar_9:5; Mar_11:21; Mar_14:45; Joh_1:38; Joh_1:50; Joh_3:2; Joh_4:31; Joh_6:25; Joh_9:2; Joh_11:8; Joh_13:13). Christ's prohibition of the title to the disciples (Mat_23:7-Cool is against using it in the spirit of exercising dominion over the faith of others. The triune God is the only "Father," "Master" (katheegeetes, guide, Rom_2:19; contrast Joh_16:13), "Teacher" (didaskalos Vaticanus manuscript Mat_23:Cool in the highest sense; on Him alone can implicit trust be placed. All are "brethren " before Him, none by office or precedence nearer to God than another. Rabboni (Joh_20:16) is simply "Master," the -i final in John's translated not meaning "my", as it often does.

Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Rabbi
My master, a title of dignity given by the Jews to their doctors of the law and their distinguished teachers. It is sometimes applied to Christ (Mat_23:7, Mat_23:8; Mar_9:5 (R.V.); Joh_1:38, Joh_1:49; Joh_3:2; Joh_6:25, etc.); also to John (Joh_3:26).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary:
A title assumed by the Jewish doctors, signifying master or lord. This title is not conferred by authority, but assumed or allowed by courtesy to learned men.


Christ did not need a title given to him by men. Nor did he need to wear the garb to prove his authority. All he did was speak and live as one of and under authority. Why do we need to go further and invent things to make us feel better about our own usurping of titles?

Christ is the Great Physician of our souls. He did not have to wear a white smock with a name badge and a stethoscope to prove it. He proved it in His life and at Calvary!
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3/23/16 1:37 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Diakoneo, it is interesting that one of your sources cites John 3:26 where John the Baptist is called Rabbi. John the Baptist wore camel's hair and a leather girdle, and Jesus said the ones who wore soft clothing were in king's houses.
Matthew 11:
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
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3/23/16 1:51 pm


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Post He had.. renewal
But he had over 100 titles...

And what is amazing is this: sources were cited...

Sure, all what he was and what he did was wonderful..

However it does not negate the fact that he could do some things that a person who was not a Rabbi could do...

How about turning over the money tables?..a normal person would have been arrested on the spot by the temple guards...

Yes, i know they wanted to kill him and they did..But it took some doing to accomplish the goal...

Jesus was and still is a Jewish Rabbi...

Believe what you will..


Last edited by renewal on 3/23/16 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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3/23/16 2:52 pm


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Post diakoneo
bonnie knox wrote:
Diakoneo, it is interesting that one of your sources cites John 3:26 where John the Baptist is called Rabbi. John the Baptist wore camel's hair and a leather girdle, and Jesus said the ones who wore soft clothing were in king's houses.
Matthew 11:
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.


Yes, apparently respected teachers (regardless of what they wore) were given the title rabbi. Smile
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3/23/16 2:52 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
renewal, please don't think the ole timer is bein evasive. I cited a few sources early on. I'm not doin the research for you boys, nor was I bein cute when I cited the Gospels.

If you read the 4 Gospels and find a rich Jesus who wore designer clothing, your have done so via eisegesis, not exegesis.
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3/23/16 2:57 pm


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Post Remains.. renewal
It is still unanswered..What so so important about the robe?

Why would they want it? What value did it have?

Why was he wearing it at all?

I have stated again and again the reason that he wore the robe..

Not one person has given a reason for him wearing it...

It was what the Rabbis wore in those times..Yet that notion is always pushed away...Wonder why?
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3/23/16 3:00 pm


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Post Still no answer... renewal
OTCP

I have never stated that he was rich in the manner that is being applied here..

What I am saying is the robe was of great worth..

I am also giving the reason that he had the robe at all...

And by the way you do not have to do the research for me. I am well capable of doing it myself..

I have cited research about this subject which was rejected. because to some it was not on the bottom of the list of acceptable references..

By the way the reference stated in the above posts were not on "the list"
either...

Were they rejected as well? Just askin'...
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3/23/16 3:08 pm


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Post DrDuck
diakoneo wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
Diakoneo, it is interesting that one of your sources cites John 3:26 where John the Baptist is called Rabbi. John the Baptist wore camel's hair and a leather girdle, and Jesus said the ones who wore soft clothing were in king's houses.
Matthew 11:
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.


Yes, apparently respected teachers (regardless of what they wore) were given the title rabbi. Smile


Anyone who had disciples as followers was called Rabbi (just means my master) in Jesus' day. They wore no particular clothing. It took centuries for the development of present day Jewish Rabbis.
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3/23/16 8:20 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
DrDuck wrote:
Anyone who had disciples as followers was called Rabbi (just means my master) in Jesus' day. They wore no particular clothing. It took centuries for the development of present day Jewish Rabbis.



You dead right, DD. This thing a Jesus bein rich an wearin designer clothes is just another example a how so many COG fellers is heavily influenced by folk like Hagee and other pop teachers, woffies, an all kinds a extra-biblical belief systems. Its really sad, man, that folk put more stock in somebody's latest book than in clear, substantive, exegesis.
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3/23/16 11:04 pm


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Post DrDuck
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
DrDuck wrote:
Anyone who had disciples as followers was called Rabbi (just means my master) in Jesus' day. They wore no particular clothing. It took centuries for the development of present day Jewish Rabbis.



You dead right, DD. This thing a Jesus bein rich an wearin designer clothes is just another example a how so many COG fellers is heavily influenced by folk like Hagee and other pop teachers, woffies, an all kinds a extra-biblical belief systems. Its really sad, man, that folk put more stock in somebody's latest book than in clear, substantive, exegesis.


From inception of Pentecost, and continuing to this day, the profit that those "teachers" gain from the gullible, who succumb to the appeal of eisegesis over exegesis, has kept them inspired to feed the beast. Their greed has been the main source of division in Pentecost. They have plagued Pentecost and generated sustained division for the whole history of the movement. Their distorted theories have tainted the pure and defiled the true until far too many wallow in their falsehood of error and are not able to realize their plight.

You are fighting the good fight against such, but I am not sure if there is a turning point where it will rightly become a winning battle. But, since it is a battle for right, I will not believe it hopeless. So keep on keeping on.
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3/24/16 8:39 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
DrDuck wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
DrDuck wrote:
Anyone who had disciples as followers was called Rabbi (just means my master) in Jesus' day. They wore no particular clothing. It took centuries for the development of present day Jewish Rabbis.



You dead right, DD. This thing a Jesus bein rich an wearin designer clothes is just another example a how so many COG fellers is heavily influenced by folk like Hagee and other pop teachers, woffies, an all kinds a extra-biblical belief systems. Its really sad, man, that folk put more stock in somebody's latest book than in clear, substantive, exegesis.


From inception of Pentecost, and continuing to this day, the profit that those "teachers" gain from the gullible, who succumb to the appeal of eisegesis over exegesis, has kept them inspired to feed the beast. Their greed has been the main source of division in Pentecost. They have plagued Pentecost and generated sustained division for the whole history of the movement. Their distorted theories have tainted the pure and defiled the true until far too many wallow in their falsehood of error and are not able to realize their plight.

You are fighting the good fight against such, but I am not sure if there is a turning point where it will rightly become a winning battle. But, since it is a battle for right, I will not believe it hopeless. So keep on keeping on.


Agin, a correct assessment, DD. Hey, they will always be error, you dead on there too, but they will always be them (like you an me an many others) what exposes error at ever opportunity. 1 John 4:1
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3/24/16 11:02 am


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Post I will Not.. renewal
Be placed in a certain class that is being suggested here..

I view things different because my point of view comes from the time of Jesus not Western views of the Word.



Many real sources can be cited that expands the mind set of most people in the West..

Because another view is taken does not mean what has been implied here.


To do that drives division and serves no purpose.

Why not take a view that a person can learn something and expand on someones knowledge?

A lesson needs to be learned. David who learned only two things from Ahitophel called his teacher, his guide and his close friend. He says this in PS 55:13. Since David learned only two things from him and he called him these things how much more should we honor those who we can learn from Prov 3:35, Prov 28:10 and Prov 4:2.

Why is it that some are unteachable when they have an opportunity to grow in knowledge?

One reason is what we grew up with is what we stick to in experience our entire lives..That is a topic for another day.
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3/24/16 4:27 pm


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Post rabbis and seamless tunics maqqebet
I can agree with renewal: examining this subject in light of the context of 1st-century Judaism provides important insight. Following is an excerpt from my unpublished work, They Called Him Yeshua: A commentary of Matthew's Gospel.

Quote:
In the eyes of modern observant Jews, there is no more revered individual than the Rabbi. Yet, the image of the rabbi as an ordained religious and community leader today is someone different than the individual referred to as Rabbi in the first century. There were no formal succession to the position and no formal ordination.

In first century Judaism, the title of Rabbi was one of honor. The title is derived from the Greek rabbi (pronounced rabbee) and means "my master" (see John 1:38). The term is used but once in Matthew's Gospel (23:8) but is used in John's Gospel five times (1:38, 49; 3:2, 27; 6:25).

Surprisingly, a chief teacher in Israel honored Yeshua with the title of Rabbi (John 3:2). Mary uses the Aramaic version when she calls Yeshua Rabboini (John 20:16).

The Rabbi was recognized as a teacher extraordinaire and deserving of the title. Synonymous with the term Rabbi was didaskalos, or teacher, master. On seven occasions in Matthew's Gospel those outside the fellowship of Yeshua's disciples referred to Him as "teacher" (8:19; 9:11; 12:38; 17:24; 19:16; 22:16; 22:36). On one occasion Yeshua refers to Himself as "teacher" (Matthew 26:18).


[If you want a bibliography, I can present one]

It wasn't until after the Temple's destruction (70 AD) that the role of the Rabbi developed as Judaism searched for new meaning and direction. Through the centuries the designation as Rabbi corresponds somewhat like the word Reverend is used for Christian pastors.

Regarding the seamless robe there seems to be further misunderstanding. The attire requirements cited by Renewal actually developed post-Temple destruction.

The following are excerpts from Alfred Edersheim's The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah .

Quote:
"the undergarment, commonly the Chaluq or the Kittuna...might be of linen or of wool. The sages [precursor to the rabbi] wore it down to the feet. The Chaluq lay lose to the body, and hand no other opening than that round the neck and for the arms. At the bottom it had a hem. To possess only one such 'coat' or inner garment was a mark of poverty." [Volume I, Book XXVI, p.622]

"The Chaluq, or more probably the Kittuna, which formed his inner garment, must have been close fitting, and descended to His feet, since it was not only worn by teachers, but was regarded as absolutely necessary for any one who would publicly read, or 'Targum' the Scriptures, or exercise any function in the Synagogue. As we know, it 'was without seam, women from the top throughout; and this closely accords with the texture of these garments." [Ibid., p. 624]


Summary
The title rabbi was solely honorific prior to the Temple's destruction in 70 AD but became a title for the revered teacher among the Pharisees as "Rabbinic Judaism" developed post-temple destruction.

Sages, or recognized teachers, were often addressed as Rabbi by their disciples but this was not in the same context as the title later developed.

Regarding the value of the "seamless" tunic, it was a common article of clothing and the measure of a man's worth depended upon how many tunics he owned. Of course, it was also the common undergarment worn by women.

There is some evidence, however, the sages tunic did mark them as sage, but anyone, whether sage or someone else appointed to function in the Synagogue, had a tunic meeting certain requirements as described above.

So, there you go...
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Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB)
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3/24/16 5:31 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
No one, certainly not I, is disputing what you've posted Mark.

What I said was:

1. Jesus was not a Rabbi in the sense that he was recognized/endorsed by the Sanhedrin. His followers, and some others, addressed him as such as a reference to "teacher."

2. The seamless robe in no way implies/confirms/suggests that Jesus was wealthy. Regardless of its value, it could have been given to him. By his own admission he had no place to lay his head, so contrary to woffie thought, Jesus DID NOT have a big house.

3. The sole purpose of this thread--since I'm the one who made the OP--was to show how woffie (and others) preachers take a scriptural text and distort it via eisegesis.
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