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wayne

We tell them what sin is

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/2/16 9:06 am**

I have been thinking on this for quite a while now. Is it our job to tell them what sin is or is it God's job to tell them what is sin. Brad posted a thread about "things that use to be sin" and it's really funny because I remember when all those things were sin. That thought(use to be sin) confused me greatly as a kid. I would be told that things were sin and when I went to scripture, I couldn't find them? Sad

That's probably the reason I could care less about the church as a child.
At some point in my pastorate, I came to the conclusion to let people grow as God grows them. We will teach them, preach to them, study scripture with them and advise them but ultimately let the Spirit convict them.
With that said, last night at our men's bible study a friend of mine was there. We have been friends since high school. He was the big strong jock, who made good grades and I was the skinny, poor, pimply faced boy from the other side of the tracks. I have been after this guy since high school and in the last 5 years - I have been able to perform his wedding to a woman he had been with since high school(8 kids together) and in the last year he has given his heart to God, joined the church, pays tithes(on his own), is an usher and assists where needed. The "problem" with Brian is he still uses foul language, drinks from time to time and slips in others ways. Last night in our meeting this big strong tough guy - broke down and started confessing his failures to our group. He used a word or 2 that were "sins" but he was reaching out for help.
My question/thought is, if this was the church I grew up in, would we have allowed him to continue coming to church or would we have shut him down with the first slip of the tongue?
Is it our job to identify sin or is it the Spirits job to convict?

Brandon Bohannon

Acts-celerater Posts: 571 **2/2/16 9:29 am**

Wayne-

1st- Praise God for what He has done and is doing in your friend's life. Thank you for being there for him. God is using you in this man's life in a way that I wouldn't even have access to. Relationship and trust. This is the way in which the Lord uses me too and I believe is consistent with much of what Jesus Himself did and that the early church did.

2nd- To your point: I believe in Sanctification like the DOF states AND I believe in Sanctification being a progressive or in progress work of the Holy Spirit. When I was a child... when I became a man... since we know that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever... since He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world... since he knew us before the foundation of the world... since He is coming again for us and has prepared a place for us... since we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...

I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

I am sanctified. I am being sanctified. I will be sanctified.

I am filled with the Holy Ghost. I am being filled with the Holy Ghost. I will be made Holy.

I struggled as a boy and young man to identify with the word Saint. I struggled with some of our interpretation of Christian Perfection in our Wesleyan Holiness movement. I still cringe when I hear certain phrases but have accepted the people who use those phrases as sincere followers of Jesus. I have decided to uphold our teachings while practicing grace and love in the mission field that I have been assigned. This isn't disloyal to Scripture or to our teachings. They mesh together. It is still the Blood of Jesus that redeems us and cleanses us. It is still the Holy Ghost Who baptizes us, teaches us and empowers us. Let God do what only God does.
_________________
Proverbs 3:5-6; John 13:34-35; Acts 1:8

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **2/2/16 10:38 am**

Paul told young Pastor Timothy to "exhort, reprove, and rebuke, with all longsuffering (patience) and doctrine (teaching)."

Obviously, we can't do the Holy Spirit's job for Him, but we've just as clearly been called to exhort, reprove and rebuke, and the Spirit works through us.

As to your question of not letting them (people who are definitely not yet entirely sanctified) come to church, I must say the way the Holiness-Pentecostal movement has usually practiced church discipline has always been a curiosity to me. The Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 5 did have to administer severe discipline to the church for its lax standard, and he did command they excommunicate the man who was sleeping with his father's wife, but even that was with a view to his repentance and restoration to righteous living.

It seems to me that the way the early church was to deal with what I'd characterize as more normal sins in the lives of believers was to exhort, reprove and rebuke, with all patience and teaching. 'Kicking someone out of the church' seems to be reserved only for the most egregious, arrogant, unrepentant cases of persistence in gross sin, and even then, it was with a view to their repentance and restoration, not their destruction or damnation.

Also, I should hasten to add that reproving, rebuking and disfellowshipping should only be for biblically defined sins, or actions that certainly can be logically considered sinful based on biblical principle, such as smoking and gambling, for example.

(Of course, it should also be noted that none of the above makes any sense at all to those caught up in the modern 'grace message').

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **2/2/16 10:55 am**

2 Cor. 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you. 4For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God.
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. 10For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

wayne

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/2/16 11:05 am**

I wish I could write/type as well as you fellers. Again, I was from the other side of the tracks.

This is probably a topic I harp on way too much but, what we called or call sin in most cases is simply stuff that will go away with time. I agree there are some things as have been pointed out that must be made to cease but things like a slip of the tongue, battling with overcoming addictions - I think we focus too much on these things. God will clean them up.
As a boy, I picked up a potty mouth and a very bad temper. The potty mouth came from hanging around the wrong people and my dad and the temper came from being skinny, poor, pimply faced and bullied - this guy fought many bullies. It took me a long time to get rid of the potty mouth and from time to time that temper will flare up(especially when I think I am being belittled or bullied Twisted Evil

). God always forgives me but others would shame me when I would slip. I try not to shame people when they slip - I have learned to observe them when they do slip up - you can tell that the Spirit is dealing with them and to me that is good enough. Now, if God impresses me to correct someone, I have no problem doing that.

Thanks for the feedback, I really enjoy these discussions.

wayne

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/2/16 11:07 am**

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 **2/2/16 1:00 pm**

Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24282 **2/2/16 1:04 pm**

There was a time we were too guilty of micro-managing what we considered the RIGHT WAY. WE were sure the Lord needed us more in that area.

To try to explain my feelings, 'There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious at the right time.' Cool

_________________
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bradfreeman

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **2/2/16 5:29 pm**

This is a timely post. My podcast this week is on forgiveness and one of the questions I answer is "What is sin?"

Rom. 14:23 says whatever is not of faith is sin.

We have to come to grips with the fact that "what is sin" changes.

It used to be a sin to eat meat offered to idols (see Acts 15), then Paul said it wasn't (Rom. 14:14; 1 Cor. 8; 1 Cor 10).

It used to be a sin to eat pork. Now we are free to eat anything (1 Tim. 4:4).

It used to be a sin to work on the Sabbath. But we are no longer under the law (Rom. 6:14).

So, what is sin is defined by what our faith allows...like it or not. More faith = more freedom. Weak faith = more rules.

Rom. 14:22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

We need to avoid imposing our convictions or our freedoms on other people. We need to accept each other.

Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/

wayne

is it really sin?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/3/16 3:38 pm**

Brad,
if it changes, is it really a sin or is it a conviction or rule? There are certain things that we know are sins and from what I read in scripture, they don't change but things like wearing shorts, drinking coke, going to the movies.....is that or was it ever really a sin to do those things. I'm thinking those were just some rules made by men to make them feel like they are closer to God and then unfortunately some spiritually weak(no offence intended) folks adopted them as sins.

bradfreeman

Re: is it really sin?

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **2/3/16 8:08 pm**

wayne

scriptures answer that question

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/4/16 8:42 am**

"At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. But when the religious leaders saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath." But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions, how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone? "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent? "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here. "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--so that they might accuse Him. And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the sabbath." Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand!" He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him. (Matthew 12:1-14)

wayne

mark 2

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/4/16 8:47 am**

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **2/4/16 9:58 am**

All of the talk about the Sabbath....what are we required to do on the Sabbath? Keep it holy? Does that mean that the other days are unholy? Do we fulfill the Sabbath requirement when we spend one hour sitting on a pew one day a week? Is the main reason for a Sabbath to make sure we rest one day a week? Why did we make fun of churches who take it seriously and meet on Saturday? That was confusing to me as a child and still is, somewhat. How serious is this whole Sabbath thing?

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12804 **2/4/16 10:28 am**

Of the Ten Commandments, all except the Sabbath commandment are reiterated in the New Testament as binding upon Christians. We still are to have no other gods before Him. We still are to not covet. We still are commanded to not commit adultery, and so on. And yet, the Sabbath command is not only not mentioned as binding under the New Covenant, it is positively stated as NOT binding upon Christians in the New Testament writings.

Col 2:16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. NASB

maqqebet

The Sabbath? I'll pass...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1771 **2/4/16 5:10 pm**

you don't want to learn about it anyway, especially if your mind is made up.
_________________
The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB)

Eddie Robbins

Re: The Sabbath? I'll pass...

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **2/4/16 5:57 pm**

maqqebet

Eddie,

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1771 **2/4/16 10:34 pm**

I'll send you a copy of a study on the Sabbath. What email would you like it sent to?
_________________
The Hammer
Mi kamocah ba'elim Adonai
"Who is like you, Adonai, among the mighty?" (Exodus 15:11, CJB)

wayne

please educate us

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 **2/5/16 9:10 am**

summarize it here.

bradfreeman

Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 **2/5/16 9:21 am**