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 Re: Unpopular MLK post--Warning |
DHDRabbi |
| I guess when you go back to when I ws a kid, you understand why they are so bitter. I am 51 years old and I remember when they weren't allowed to come to "our" school. Can you imagine that? While I understand the struggle for equality that we want, I understand their bitterness. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13684
2/8/06 11:07 pm
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| Re: Unpopular MLK post--Warning |
Memory03 |
| notwanghere wrote: | | Memory03 wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | I am not discounting his contribution to the Civil Rights movement, but in my opinion, the only reason that King is held in such high regard is because he was assassinated. If he would have not been killed, he would probably had just a normal role in history.
I also feel that if JFK were not assassinated he would have just been one more ex-President who cheated on his wife and make major mistakes in office. |
I agree Rough! MLK had been with a woman other than his wife in the same hotel not long before he was shot. He was no better than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. And had secret dealings with Communist. |
Womanizing has been a part of our history. No condoning just reporting. From George Washington, Ben Franklin, FDR, Eisenhower ... on and one. To use MLK's infidelity as a dis-qualifier to his effect on history is really sad. Eisenhower, a Republican, is not disqualified from his great role as Supreme Allied Commander because of his infidelity. Oh, Oh, I'm sorry he was a Republican so it doesn't matter.
Its hard to hide bigotry. Like I said earlier its a shame he didn't live to complete his vision.
I am embarrassed for some of you, |
Hey Bubba! MLK was posing as a Man of God, not a politician! Get your head out of your hiney and actually read what has been written... 
_________________
Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
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Posts: 21953
2/8/06 11:09 pm
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| Re: Unpopular MLK post--Warning |
notwanghere |
| Memory03 wrote: | | notwanghere wrote: | | Memory03 wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | I am not discounting his contribution to the Civil Rights movement, but in my opinion, the only reason that King is held in such high regard is because he was assassinated. If he would have not been killed, he would probably had just a normal role in history.
I also feel that if JFK were not assassinated he would have just been one more ex-President who cheated on his wife and make major mistakes in office. |
I agree Rough! MLK had been with a woman other than his wife in the same hotel not long before he was shot. He was no better than Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. And had secret dealings with Communist. |
Womanizing has been a part of our history. No condoning just reporting. From George Washington, Ben Franklin, FDR, Eisenhower ... on and one. To use MLK's infidelity as a dis-qualifier to his effect on history is really sad. Eisenhower, a Republican, is not disqualified from his great role as Supreme Allied Commander because of his infidelity. Oh, Oh, I'm sorry he was a Republican so it doesn't matter.
Its hard to hide bigotry. Like I said earlier its a shame he didn't live to complete his vision.
I am embarrassed for some of you, |
Hey Bubba! MLK was posing as a Man of God, not a politician! Get your head out of your hiney and actually read what has been written... |
He is not being honored as a man of God, but as a civil rights leader. I resent your "hiney" remark. But I am not surprised by your retreat to toilet humor, since you have no intellectual arguments. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/8/06 11:39 pm
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| Its a black thang, you'll never understand... |
jonbrown999 |
unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that???
_________________
"The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1056
2/9/06 12:09 am
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| Re: Its a black thang, you'll never understand... |
notwanghere |
| jonbrown999 wrote: | unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that??? |
Blessing my brother!!! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/9/06 12:25 am
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| I told you this would be an unpopular post |
roughridercog |
| But it makes you think |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
2/9/06 2:30 am
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| Re: Its a black thang, you'll never understand... |
Land of Middle Girth |
| notwanghere wrote: | | jonbrown999 wrote: | unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that??? |
Blessing my brother!!! |
I wonder, at what part of Luther's ministry did these events take place? Was it a continual thing? Did he repent or continue?
The disciples, with the exception of one, while traitorous, reversed their opinion and the majority of them died a martyrs death.
Paul, along with Moses and David, we know how all of them turned out.
I wonder if the liberals who cheer the downfall of Luther, David, Paul, and yet at the same time condemn "casting stones", feel it is ever appropriate to confront a brother or sister in Christ? After all, who are YOU to say anything to ME? How DARE you say I'm a sinner?
Regarding the issue of all the horrific, inhuman tragedy that Blacks have suffered, I wonder if you would, for a moment, consider the Jewish people. I know that too is an unpopular subject with liberals. I would venture to say that the Jews have suffered quite a bit more than blacks and in the same token haven't whined as much.
How's that for an unpopular post. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1169
2/9/06 4:42 am
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| Re: Its a black thang, you'll never understand... |
roughridercog |
| jonbrown999 wrote: | unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that??? |
MLK didn't give his life. Jesus gave his life. MLK was killed by a bigot's bullet.
MLK was a civil right leader and a miniser who lived a hypocritical lifestyle.
He did so much in the Civil Rights movement especially with his approach to non violence, but I still stand by my opinion.
If MLK would not have been shot, he would be remembered as a Civil Rights pioneer, no doubt, but he would not have been elevated to sainthood (as some people nearly do).
My son did an oral report once in school in which he outed MLK as a hypocrite and immoral while claiming to be a minister of the gospel. The teacher was enraged, but after looking over his research done at a local university was forced to admit he was right.
He saluted his ability to speak and motivate people, but did not make any attempt to gloss over a sinful lifestyle for the "political correctness" too often demanded in place of honesty.
MLK was a great Civil Rights leader and an immoral adulterer. They're both true. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
2/9/06 8:31 am
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| Like I said... You'll never understand |
jonbrown999 |
Guys, you're only proving my point.
Until you walk in similar shoes you will NEVER understand. You will only criticize what you don't know. If you did have the same type experiences as blacks, your comments would trend away from exposing sin, pointing out feet of clay, and making sure this hero is seen as faulty. You would rejoice in the good and major in the accomplishments because that really is the point, not the adultery, traitor, murderer & etc of some heroes.
Here's a question. Why is there not a thread here about the sins of Paul, David, Moses....
Answer: Because you have been socially (religiously) conditioned to gloss over their foibles and only emphasize their strengths. Just like the Black community about MLK and IN REVERSE ORDER, about MLK, for many in the white community.
Some might say - see to your own hypocrisy.
Are you seriously so unfamiliar with MLK history that you could say with a straight face he did not give his life?
BTW
I am one of the most conservative people you will ever meet and I do not condone sin in any way. I, also demand honesty.
Land of MG- dude, I said "cast the 1st stone" not slingshot (your avatar) ha!
.... and you don't know many Jews do you?
_________________
"The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1056
2/9/06 10:33 am
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| Re: Like I said... You'll never understand |
roughridercog |
| jonbrown999 wrote: | Guys, you're only proving my point.
Until you walk in similar shoes you will NEVER understand. You will only criticize what you don't know. If you did have the same type experiences as blacks, your comments would trend away from exposing sin, pointing out feet of clay, and making sure this hero is seen as faulty. You would rejoice in the good and major in the accomplishments because that really is the point, not the adultery, traitor, murderer & etc of some heroes.
Here's a question. Why is there not a thread here about the sins of Paul, David, Moses....
Answer: Because you have been socially (religiously) conditioned to gloss over their foibles and only emphasize their strengths. Just like the Black community about MLK and IN REVERSE ORDER, about MLK, for many in the white community.
Some might say - see to your own hypocrisy.
Are you seriously so unfamiliar with MLK history that you could say with a straight face he did not give his life?
BTW
I am one of the most conservative people you will ever meet and I do not condone sin in any way. I, also demand honesty.
Land of MG- dude, I said "cast the 1st stone" not slingshot (your avatar) ha!
.... and you don't know many Jews do you? |
MLK was not crucified he was murdered. It was a tragedy and a loss for all who desired true civil rights.
But speak the truth about him.
The reason why is venerated is that he was assassinated. It's the same reason JFK is so venerated. If he would have not been murdered, he'd have been just one more guy who'd had an affair with M. Monroe. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
2/9/06 10:47 am
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| I hate to say it but Politics plays a big part in |
Layperson |
glorifying the Kings. They are soliciting the African American vote.
Should Mrs King have a special day dedicated (each year) in her honor? It may get some votes. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1747
2/9/06 2:52 pm
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| Diversity |
notwanghere |
Certainly the perspectives offered by the few posters on this board is not sufficient to draw conclusions. We don't know who are Pastors, who are church members, or even for that matter who are COG. If one makes the leap that although small in number they are reflective of the COG membership, both laity and clergy, it demonstrates very effectively the philosophical differences between the North and the South.
The COG claims to be an International Church. It is my submission that it is a Southeastern denomination with congregations in the North. Until we as a denomination recognize this we will remain ineffective in the North.
The failure to grasp the social, cultural, and experiential differences in the North our Churches in the North shall continue to be primarily populated by transplanted Southerners who bring with them their experiences.
This is not an effort to hijack this thread, but read the thread, and the perspective on MLK demonstrates such a cultural divide exists.
Although I am white, my Dad took me Washington D.C. to hear the "I've Got a Dream" speech in 1963. It was a defining moment in my life. I can not, and will not belittle the greatness of MLK because of his moral failures any more than I will deny the greatness of Thomas Jefferson because of his.
I recognize than many do not write intending to sound racist. And probably everyone would deny being a racist. However many of the comments sound that way to me. If I were an African-American I would be additionally offended.
Many COG congregations emulate the southern black worship styles. Racism may be the last attempt to claim a difference. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/9/06 3:13 pm
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| Not a liberal here.... |
Phil Hoover |
| Land of Middle Girth wrote: | | notwanghere wrote: | | jonbrown999 wrote: | unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that??? |
Blessing my brother!!! |
I wonder, at what part of Luther's ministry did these events take place? Was it a continual thing? Did he repent or continue?
The disciples, with the exception of one, while traitorous, reversed their opinion and the majority of them died a martyrs death.
Paul, along with Moses and David, we know how all of them turned out.
I wonder if the liberals who cheer the downfall of Luther, David, Paul, and yet at the same time condemn "casting stones", feel it is ever appropriate to confront a brother or sister in Christ? After all, who are YOU to say anything to ME? How DARE you say I'm a sinner?
Regarding the issue of all the horrific, inhuman tragedy that Blacks have suffered, I wonder if you would, for a moment, consider the Jewish people. I know that too is an unpopular subject with liberals. I would venture to say that the Jews have suffered quite a bit more than blacks and in the same token haven't whined as much.
How's that for an unpopular post. |
| Quote: | I wonder if the liberals who cheer the downfall of Luther, David, Paul,
Not a liberal here...Just one who believes what the Scriptures say: We all come from the same CESSPOOL of sin...
And it's only the eternal grace and love of God in His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that any of us will ever see the gates of glory.
Even for the "self-righteous" among us. I guess a good reading of Luke 18 is in order about right now, huh?
Phil Hoover
Chicago |
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15383
2/9/06 3:22 pm
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| Re: Like I said... You'll never understand |
Memory03 |
| jonbrown999 wrote: | Guys, you're only proving my point.
You would rejoice in the good and major in the accomplishments because that really is the point, not the adultery, traitor, murderer & etc of some heroes. |
so I am going to guess that that is the reason the black community turns a blind eye to reprobates like MLK, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton...
as I see it the white community does not turn a blind eye to the white reprobates, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Earl Paulk...
_________________
Be Blessed!
Memory03
8233 post at the original Acts Board...
Real Men get their haircut in a Barber Shop... The rest go to beauty parlors... |
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Posts: 21953
2/9/06 10:05 pm
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| Memory |
notwanghere |
You continue to misunderstand the forum in which these men made their accomplishments. Jim Baker ... preacher. Earl Paulk ... preacher. MLK is not honored for his work as a preacher but for his civil rights activities. What holds our attention in his life often displays our perspective.
I do not know if this is factual, Hebrew Studies was never one of my academic pursuits. But I am told the Hebrew word for "Enemy" is one who watches. MLK failed in many ways, but a day has not been set apart to honor him for his faithfulness or lack thereof to Loretta, but rather because of his influence over American civil rights. Like it or not, it took conviction, and bravery to stand in the face of the racist laws which discriminated against black Americans. It took bravery to confront the strongest powers of that day. I honor him for that!! Not for his marital indiscretions. What we accent in a mans life reveals more about us then it does them! |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1794
2/9/06 10:16 pm
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| Re: Not a liberal here.... |
Land of Middle Girth |
| Phil Hoover wrote: | | Land of Middle Girth wrote: | | notwanghere wrote: | | jonbrown999 wrote: | unless you suffer all the horrific, inhuman, tragedy that Blacks have, without opportunity for real self improvement until MLK gave his life and started real progress.
I wonder if any race or group could go through all that and not be a little touchy and take every advantage when they get a chance?
BTW
Moses - murderer
David - traitor, adulterer, murderer
all 12 disciples - traitor to our Lord
Paul - blasphemer, murderer
Martin Luther - alcoholic, fornicator
He that is without sin cast the first stone.....
OWWWW!!!! who was that??? |
Blessing my brother!!! |
I wonder, at what part of Luther's ministry did these events take place? Was it a continual thing? Did he repent or continue?
The disciples, with the exception of one, while traitorous, reversed their opinion and the majority of them died a martyrs death.
Paul, along with Moses and David, we know how all of them turned out.
I wonder if the liberals who cheer the downfall of Luther, David, Paul, and yet at the same time condemn "casting stones", feel it is ever appropriate to confront a brother or sister in Christ? After all, who are YOU to say anything to ME? How DARE you say I'm a sinner?
Regarding the issue of all the horrific, inhuman tragedy that Blacks have suffered, I wonder if you would, for a moment, consider the Jewish people. I know that too is an unpopular subject with liberals. I would venture to say that the Jews have suffered quite a bit more than blacks and in the same token haven't whined as much.
How's that for an unpopular post. |
| Quote: | I wonder if the liberals who cheer the downfall of Luther, David, Paul,
Not a liberal here...Just one who believes what the Scriptures say: We all come from the same CESSPOOL of sin...
And it's only the eternal grace and love of God in His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that any of us will ever see the gates of glory.
Even for the "self-righteous" among us. I guess a good reading of Luke 18 is in order about right now, huh?
Phil Hoover
Chicago |
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Land of MG- dude, I said "cast the 1st stone" not slingshot (your avatar) ha!
.... and you don't know many Jews do you? -- Yes, I know to families personally. They are more upset about Israel being whittled away recently. I've never heard them complain about Nazis and how they should be paid for the sufferings of their family.
Re: Phil, If you're not a liberal, fine. Then I'm not girthy. It's true because I've said it. and to accuse me of being "self-righteous" just proves my point about how DARE I bring into light anything negative. What is it to me or you. If someone is in a position of leadership they are to, well, perhaps a reading of 1 Timothy 3 is in order. Cheers. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1169
2/9/06 11:36 pm
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| Some people would argue with a signboard.... |
jonbrown999 |
... Until recently Paulk has gotten pass after pass from white America, I'm sure all in the name of "forgiveness or restoration" for his great talents (ministerial talents that is  )
Jim Baker has returned with acceptance in most circles
Swaggert is a joke.
But MLK has no continuation to a present story, neither of repentance, restoration, or even a marginalized joke like Bro. Al. He was murdered almost 40 years ago while still a young man. No opportunity to "go on an'a see wut de end gonna be."
[BTW white liberal media gave Rev. AL a voice and platform, not black America. That's the definition of real power... when you can even chose the other's spokesmen for them]
... I would guess you are very glad that your life did not end when you were young still in sin without a chance to improve and be all that God had intended. Where ever you would put Martin in eternity right now is were you would be too.
RR ...Jesus was "murdered" too, that's a reason He's famous
But He's JESUS because: He arose! Gloraaayyy
... No, it is not the same as JFK. Who knows why JFK was assassinated?
Check your historical facts. There was likely no other way for it to end, and he knew it and said as much many times. But he kept on anyway...
LoMG... all the Jewish people I know make a point that they have suffered too. I will give you that it is more subtle than blacks but once again, that is a cultural thang, blacks are MUCH MORE gregarious about everything on average that any other race.
... MLK is a hero because he held up the mirror to white faces, spoke Biblical truth about the hypocrisy of many whites and he gave his life to the movement because of that, demanding equal rights for the "Negro."
... And I would dare to put MLK's professional accomplishments AT HIS AGE, up against anyone on this board. My guess is, in just the number of people he helped to improve their lives, would smoke anyone reading this board.
_________________
"The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1056
2/10/06 1:56 pm
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| No one discounts his great accomplishments |
roughridercog |
He stood up when few were willing to take the risk.
But MLK's life was cut short by a bullet. As a result he's taken on a bigger than life media fed image.
He was a faulted human being (like all of us), but he was not beyond reproach. I stand by my premise that the reason why MLK is so revered is because of a bullet.
Just like JFK
Dare I say this?
Perhaps Abraham Lincoln would be remembered differently if he would not have been assassinated? Maybe he would be just one more president's picture on the wall?
It's something to think about.
It can be that way pastoring too. The hardest pastoral job you'll ever have is facing a man who died while he was pastor there. He's almost instantly canonized by many of the people of the church.
If he would have lived and left, he'd be just another former pastor. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
2/10/06 2:24 pm
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| But it is not THE reason... |
jonbrown999 |
I will agree that death increases the "sainthood points" of anyone. I know because my first wife died and the second one has had to compete with the supposed/perceived perfection of the first. Not that I (or anyone else that I am aware of) tries to uphold something over her head. But comparisons are inevitable and who wants to speak ill of the dead, though believe me there was plenty. (I can't believe I just said that)
But I reject that "a bullet" is THE reason he is revered and head & shoulders above other activist.
Better reasons would be... his strict adherence to effective, non-violet protest, his incredible work schedule, his eloquence in speech (especially considering his youth and much of it self taught), his willingness to put himself in harms way... to be a target, and most of all it was "the calling" on his life by God
WHY? is "a bullet" not THE reason...
Medger Evers caught a bullet, but he's no MLK (do you know who that was?)
Malcolm X caught a bullet, but he's no MLK
Andrew Goodman (a white man) caught a bullet, but he's no MLK (do you know who he was?)
Emmitt Till caught a bullet, but he's no MLK, no one hardly knows him
What makes MLK great and famous and even worthy of adulation was not just a bullet. To say so insinuates that what he fought for was not meritorious enough. It is a tactic that some would use to - demean the messenger = demeans the message.
A double standard of examination/relevance has been applied by some to MLK's morals that the cumulative effect is to destroy the message by exposing the messenger.
I choose to "cover my father's nakedness" and implore those who appreciate the worthy message, to accept MLK as a father in all of humanity, and cover his nakedness. Then the family always knows the truth but strangers are not allowed to talk about family 
edited for incorrect word usage
_________________
"The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi
Last edited by jonbrown999 on 2/10/06 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1056
2/10/06 3:40 pm
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| MLK was a great leader |
Nature Boy Florida |
He accomplished or began to accomplish many things that he set out to do - for the good of many people. He rightfully has a day of honor in this country.
Btw: Bill Clinton is also a great leader. He came from NOTHING and led the greatest country on earth for 8 years. True, he embarassed himself and the whole country, but even then he has been very resilient. I never voted for him but he is an incredible communicator and knows how to get people to do things. <No pun intended>
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
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2/10/06 4:24 pm
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