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 Re: Yada |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| tryingtofitin wrote: | | Yada, yada, yada... Same ole, same ole.... |
Yep, I agree. Same ole woffie error/hypocrisy. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/28/15 8:26 am
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| OTCP... |
Aaron Scott |
The message of healing is part and parcel of the gospel. In fact, JESUS SAID that it is to be a sign that follows believers!
Quit preaching divine healing if you believe the chances of someone actually being healed is about like winning the lottery. I'm serious. Don't you preach it if you mock the belief that God wants to heal everyone.
Your fundamental mistake is that while you believe that God is not willing that anyone should perish--and yet some still perish--you will not believe the same about healing. That is, you do not believe that it is God will for all to be healed. In an nutshell, you are telling me that God wants everyone to be saved, but does not want everyone to be healed.
(Romans 8:32 KJV) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Consider that contrary nature of your position. You want to preach that God gives us salvation...but not "all things."
Worse, when someone comes along that believes that we can also have "all things," you take them to task for not yet having all things! You seem to think that if a person has not yet attained, then that person should not preach that we can attain.
Yes, people get sick. Yes, people die and go to hell. Even though this may not be what God really, really wants. OF COURSE God wants to bless us, lift us, encourage us, prosper us, etc. That doesn't mean we are at the place where He can do that at this time. There may be immaturities in our lives that hinder such things. There may be some larger picture that God sees. But it does not lessen the truth that God is WILLING to heal us all. There may be changes that He is trying to affect, things He is wanting to work out through the sickness, but it seems clear that God is willing to heal anyone once these things are realized. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/28/15 9:16 am
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JimmieDavis |
| I would encourage all to leave OTCP alone. He's been rebuked multiple times. He can't accept it. No one will change his mind. He won't change anyone elses. His tired old doubting diatribe has exceeded just error, he now uses his propaganda to jab at those who have died in the Lord. He is in error. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 219
11/28/15 9:23 am
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| And the fiddler continues to play |
Ernie Long |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Thanks fellers fer the encouragement. Love yall too.
This thread IS NOT about Norvel Hayes daughter per se, she just happened to be the one who experienced sickness/disease and passed this time. I pray for grace/peace/comfort to all who knew her, family/friends. This thread is no slight on her, the ole timer didn't even know Norvel Hayes had a daughter till another Acts poster (who shall remain anonymous) sent me the link. Nor is this thread questioning her love for, devotion to, or relationship with Christ. It is referencing one thing and one thing only--woffie teaching on physical healing.
It could just as well be Copeland, Hagin, Tilton, or anyone of a thousand WOF preachers, who proclaim as an undeniable right, that the Christian is guaranteed healing of all sickness/disease. When such individuals proclaim this position as Gospel truth, and it doesn't work in their own lives, and they refuse to adjust/amend their teaching, and they continue to lead others into error, YES, they stand accountable to the test of truth. Would I interrupt the memorial service and publically denounce such persons? 99% a Acts posters knows the ole timer would not do such a thing. The other 1% suffer from a condition known in the Greek as moros. I posted this on a Internet forum frequented primarily by COG folk, and they aint no COG folk I know what follered Hayes or had anything to do with New Life Bible College.
Hey, I done stood alone per this subject a heap a times, shall continue to do so. You boys rail agin the ole timer all ya want, call him incompassionate, judgmental, tasteless, an on down the line. It don't change a thing.
Hey, but JimmieDavis is right about one thing, the ole timer is sick, sick a false teaching, extended error, horrendous hermeneutics, gullible gilligans in the church, an the whole bit. They is a famine in the land, not a famine of food, but of the Word of God. |
as Actscelerate dies |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
11/28/15 10:06 am
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| Bad timing |
JLarry |
I thought about posting on FB that hundreds of lives were lost yesterday at Planned Parenthood. Three by a gunman.
But thought the timing would be "bad timing".
_________________
Recorded Sermons @ www.pastorwiley.com
No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
11/28/15 10:39 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
Its OK fellers. Hey, if it was John MacArthur we was talkin bout in this thread, you boys would be hot-n-heavy in the conversation, railin agin JMac's error. But when the ole timer calls for correction from a woffie, hey, he is the one in error. But agin, its OK.
Aaron, the ole timer believes in physical healing, and I believe God heals 100% a the time:
Some gradually, physically healed in this life.
Some instantly, physically healed in this life.
Some eternally, die from disease/sickness, live eternally without sickness/sickness.
What I do not believe is that God has given a 100% guarantee that every single Christian, in every single circumstance, will be physically healed in this life. And this is the WOF error I oppose. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/28/15 10:41 am
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| Re: For what it's worth... |
Eddie Robbins |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | I do agree with those who have posted here regarding the insensitivity of forging theology debate on the anvil of personal pain and loss...
But the other side of this weighty issue is:
At moments such as these we either blame the faith of people, or we question the legitimacy of the faith we hold. And the reality is, both may very well still be in tact.
When do we discuss the hope of our faith for moments such as these? (sincere question).
Indeed we must mourn with those who mourn, weep with those who weep, rejoice with those who rejoice...and do so in appropriate moments. I get that. But when do we wrestle with the disillusionment these types of situations present us? |
I lost a friend, who was in his 20s. His own Dad, who was a "faith" preacher, blamed the death on his son for not having faith. It's a sick doctrine. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
11/28/15 12:05 pm
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| Tom... |
Aaron Scott |
I do not argue that one is "guaranteed" healing because you pray. I do guarantee that God is not willing that any should be sick, nor is he willing that any should perish.
The "willing" I am using is the same willing in that latter portion of the previous sentence: "God is not willing that any should perish."
It is not a guarantee that no one will perish. Rather, it is God's hope/wish/desire that no one perish. Same with healing.
At NO PLACE in Jesus' ministry do we find anyone who remained unhealed because it was God's will for them to be sick. So why start blaming God now? Jesus never once blamed God because of the disciples' lack of faith. He called them "O, ye of little faith," etc. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/28/15 2:46 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| But, when you say He is not willing that any perish, who does that put the choice on? It is clearly on the individual. They can choose Jesus or not. Are you saying that the individual chooses to be sick or not? Because, if God is not willing that we be sick, that puts the choice on us. Is this what you believe? We can simply choose to not be sick? That is basically what the WoF folks teach and, in my opinion, it is in error. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
11/28/15 4:06 pm
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| Eddie...no, of course not. |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | Eddie Robbins
But, when you say He is not willing that any perish, who does that put the choice on? It is clearly on the individual. They can choose Jesus or not. Are you saying that the individual chooses to be sick or not? Because, if God is not willing that we be sick, that puts the choice on us. Is this what you believe? We can simply choose to not be sick? That is basically what the WoF folks teach and, in my opinion, it is in error. |
Eddie, what we have to do is find a way to explain why God seemingly did such marvelous things during the time of Jesus and the apostles...but today we find such things so rarely.
To say that God has changed and now is less willing to heal...well, that kind of makes Christianity a non-starter for me.
To say that while God healed left and right back then, He doesn't do it like that today...well, that eviscerates the whole "signs shall follow believers" truth that Jesus spoke.
I cannot explain why some folks don't get healed today anymore than I can explain why it seemed that EVERYONE got healed when they came to Jesus.
When the disciples had trouble in praying for someone, Jesus didn't say, "Well, that's probably because My Father isn't willing to heal them." No, he told the disciples they were of "little faith," etc. He put the responsibility on THEM.
Eddie, my point was not that one chooses to be sick or saved, but rather that healing and salvation are extended to all. That if we fail to take these things, that is not God's fault. Rather any deficiency is on our part.
I do not say that to make light of folks who have prayed and prayed, yet stayed sick. Great men of God have experienced sickness, and I am far beneath them. But I do say that healing is POSSIBLE for all...if we reach whatever threshold God wants us to reach. If was can truly believe, we can truly receive.
But again, too many people have a false understanding of what "to believe" means. They think it means "I prayed about it for three days." Or "I cried a lot." Or "I quoted lots of scriptures." NO! Faith is still different. These things are good, but that is not, itself, faith. Faith is KNOWING that it WILL happen, MUST happen, CANNOT HELP BUT HAPPEN. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/28/15 5:04 pm
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| Re: Eddie...no, of course not. |
Old Time Country Preacher |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | To say that God has changed and now is less willing to heal...well, that kind of makes Christianity a non-starter for me.
I cannot explain why some folks don't get healed today anymore than I can explain why it seemed that EVERYONE got healed when they came to Jesus. |
I can't answer for Eddie, Aaron, but I have never believed God has changed and is less willing to heal, nor did EVERYONE get healed in Jesus' day. In those passages where it states "and he healed them all," surely you don't interpret that to mean EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. When groups of people followed him, and it says "he healed them all," this was a contextual statement. It doesn't even mean--not from the grammar of the text--that every single person in the area was healed. For example, in Luke 6 it states:
And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all. Does this passage imply that every single person in Judea, Jerusalem, Tyre and Sidon was healed? No it doesn't. Some have conjectured that this is what happened, but the text simply doesn't support such conjecture. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/28/15 6:05 pm
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philunderwood |
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | Its OK fellers. Hey, if it was John MacArthur we was talkin bout in this thread, you boys would be hot-n-heavy in the conversation, railin agin JMac's error. But when the ole timer calls for correction from a woffie, hey, he is the one in error. But agin, its OK.
Aaron, the ole timer believes in physical healing, and I believe God heals 100% a the time:
Some gradually, physically healed in this life.
Some instantly, physically healed in this life.
Some eternally, die from disease/sickness, live eternally without sickness/sickness.
What I do not believe is that God has given a 100% guarantee that every single Christian, in every single circumstance, will be physically healed in this life. And this is the WOF error I oppose. |
You did not call for correction from Zona or Norvel, you posted a sarcastic subject on a post concerning someone's daughter's death. Selah.
_________________
Live an epiK life!
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3954
11/28/15 6:28 pm
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| Re: For what it's worth... |
Nick Park |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
But the other side of this weighty issue is:
At moments such as these we either blame the faith of people, or we question the legitimacy of the faith we hold. And the reality is, both may very well still be in tact. |
Now there's a Freudian slip, if ever there was one.
The faith of the saints is indeed intact.
But the original post was not done in tact.
_________________
Senior Pastor, Solid Rock Church, Drogheda
National Overseer, Church of God, Ireland
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http://eaiseanchai.wordpress.com/ |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1021
11/28/15 6:33 pm
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| OTCP, you said: |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | I can't answer for Eddie, Aaron, but I have never believed God has changed and is less willing to heal, nor did EVERYONE get healed in Jesus' day. In those passages where it states "and he healed them all," surely you don't interpret that to mean EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.
That was never the claim. But EVERYONE who came to Jesus got healed. Every. Single. One. And everyone to whom Jesus WENT got healed. Jesus did not go to everyone, but to those that He DID go to, He healed them.
AND everyone--every single person--who got to Jesus was healed. Every one of them. Find one who didn't.
And the apostles' record is pretty much the same, it appears. If they brought them to the apostles, it appears they were healed. If the apostles went to someone who was sick, they were healed.
Are there some exceptions that can be found in the apostles? Sure. We know that Timothy had "oft infirmities." But the magnitude of difference between THEN and NOW...well, it makes one questions either whether those stories back then were true...or whether we are doing something wrong.
When groups of people followed him, and it says "he healed them all," this was a contextual statement. It doesn't even mean--not from the grammar of the text--that every single person in the area was healed. For example, in Luke 6 it states:
And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all. Does this passage imply that every single person in Judea, Jerusalem, Tyre and Sidon was healed? No it doesn't. Some have conjectured that this is what happened, but the text simply doesn't support such conjecture.
Right. See above. We know that everyone within a 10,000 mile radius of Jesus was not healed. Yet EVERYONE who came to Jesus--and EVERYONE to whom Jesus went--were healed. THAT is the issue for me. How do we explain the difference in our record and that of Jesus and the apostles?
Why did they seemingly have such remarkable success...and we have such limited success?
You claim that it's because God doesn't want to heal that person for some reason.
I claim that it's because we aren't demonstrating the same level of faith.
There were plenty of sick folks that Jesus did not visit, nor did they come to Him. The lame man at the Beautiful Gate, well, he almost certainly had been there during Jesus' ministry...but Jesus did not heal him for some reason.
But everyone who got to Jesus was healed. The question, for me, is can we "get to Jesus" by faith? If so--and I believe it is so--then we can have our healing.
No, not everyone gets there. NOT because they are not choice and wonderful saints of God...but simply because faith is not easy to come by, even though only a little faith is needed.
Jesus even wondered whether He would find faith on the earth when He came. So perhaps it is in diminishing supply. But let's not claim that God must want a person sick if we cannot heal them. Further, let's not act like not good can come of it if someone is not healed (a point for you!). If we do not have faith to heal, then God can still make good come of it all.
But I am not going to just chalk it up to God, as if to say, "Hey, my faith is perfect...so the problem is on the other end. God apparently doesn't want to heal you for some reason."
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Last edited by Aaron Scott on 11/28/15 7:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/28/15 6:54 pm
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| There was no original post in terms of comments, only a link. The thread title was "I simply don't understand." |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/28/15 10:05 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| I don't understand either. After a lifetime of making people feel guilty for not having enough faith for healing, I don't understand how this man of faith let his own guard down. It's something that most everyone of his followers are asking. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
11/29/15 7:28 am
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diakoneo |
I suppose when Paul said, "to live is Christ to die is gain" he was only speaking for himself.
The whole WoF camps message is the prosperity gospel. Prospering in this body on this earth. The ideal as Mark Rutland put it "to be raptured out of the back of a Cadillac."
Any and all pain, it seems must come from Satan(according to them) There is no room at all for "scourging" of of a father his children. There is a devil behind every pain, because it seems, according to them, the flesh has been redeemed already. WoF doctrine is unbiblical. Many Church of God folks believe large parts and support monetarily Copeland, Duplantis, Dollar etc. They send large donations to their ministries. These monies could be going to help missionaries doing real work overseas, whom this world is not their home. Instead it goes to folks who have set up there own kingdom on this earth. Sad. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
11/29/15 8:04 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| diakoneo wrote: | | WoF doctrine is unbiblical. Many Church of God folks believe large parts and support monetarily Copeland, Duplantis, Dollar etc. They send large donations to their ministries. These monies could be going to help missionaries doing real work overseas, whom this world is not their home. Instead it goes to folks who have set up there own kingdom on this earth. Sad. |
Not only is it sad, D, it is shameful. An you are dead on here, they is many COG folk what eats this stuff up. The ole timer becomes livid when I think about what you describe above. That gang of greed will never see a shilling a the ole timer's blessings. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15564
11/29/15 2:47 pm
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| Folks, consider some things... |
Aaron Scott |
How DO we explain to people that we believe that God still operates like He did in the Book of Acts...when it is clear as day that God does NOT operate like He did then?
How do we look at ourselves in the mirror when we preach diving healing...and yet, down deep, know that MAYBE one person out of 100 will truly experience divine healing?
We either need to get on board with cessation...or we need to say that we have come short in some way. Why in the world would we claim that God heals when we know that God will almost certainly (if our own stats are to believed) NOT heal a person?
I'm afraid most of us are about as surprised as anyone when someone is miraculously healed.
Please know that I am NOT saying I have attained this. I know that I have NOT attained it. But I can find no way around the truth that there is no reason to believe God is not still willing to do these things. And if I believe that, I have no choice but to place the shortcoming in MY court and not place it on God. If God doesn't heal, I am not going to blame God or claim that He doesn't do those things anymore. Rather, I am going to say that if we keep pressing on, if we keep trying, if we keep believing, we CAN see what the apostles saw and experienced.
I don't know how a person can claim to be Pentecostal when they preach divine healing KNOWING that it is almost a given that very few, if any, will receive miraculous healing. Yes, you can be a Christian and believe that no one will be healed...but how can you be a Pentecostal? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6032
11/29/15 4:36 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| I know enough about it to realize that most of the disciples were martyred for the faith. Where was God? Why would Paul yell Timothy to drink wine for his many infirmities if he could have just prayed the prayer of faith? What about Paul's thorn in the flesh? Why wasn't that healed? Then, all through our history, we have seen countless die way too early with diseases. We even lost a general overseer. It's time we got real and realize that sometimes we are healed and sometimes we're not and has nothing to do with how much faith we have. |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
11/29/15 5:21 pm
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