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 When a member of his church died, WE COULD NOT FIND HIS PASTOR |
doyle |
I got the call at home at about 3:10 am Thanksgiving morning. I'm "on-call" for 24 hours. When on-call, we only go in if a patient has died. Our immediate concern in such cases, is the patient's family.
Arriving at the hospital 25 minutes later, I found the 42-year-old deceased patient's wife in the room alone with him. He had come in Wednesday evening with a 101 temperature and pain in his left leg. Other than that, he had not been sick - worked for the Atlanta Falcons.
His death was a total shock to his wife and to the doctors too. They are not sure, but think he may have developed a blood clot in his leg. The clot possibly became dislodged and went into a lung - causing severe problems with breathing and overtaxing his heart.
As I gently pulled open the two sliding doors to his ICU area, his wife was in a far corner literally shaking with grief. His death was totally unexpected. Their two sons, ages 7 and 12 were at home with their grandfather. They did not know anything about their dad passing away. She wanted advice on how to tell a child that their Father had died.
She and I stood by her husbands bedside as she tried to come to grips with what had just happened. She began to pray and thank the Lord for allowing her to have such a good husband "for the past 13 years." She had heard testimonies of how the Holy Spirit had comforted people in times like this, and she was asking "Lord, could you please do that for me?"
She and her husband are members of a Pentecostal fellowship and I asked if her pastor knew what had happened. She didn't have his number with her but gave me the name of the church and asked me to please call him.
I Googled the church name and up came a nice website. It's a church with about a hundred people in regular attendance. I called the church number hoping there was an emergency number to reach the pastor - looked under "contact us" but the only number was the church number.
Looking under "Church staff," it showed photos of each person and gave some basic info, but no emails or phone numbers. At about 4:15am, I left a voice mail at the church number. Neither the website nor voice mail at church left any number for the pastor.
Called information. No number for the pastor. No email address. Checked his organization's state office (he is not COG) listing of church's and pastors - church name and number was there but no number for him. It seemed the pastor had made a great effort to keep people from knowing his personal number.
That is understandable to a point, but when faithful members cannot reach their pastor in major emergencies...
Do they still have answering services that churches or businesses can hire to take calls? That way, the caller gets a "live" person to speak with, but the one taking the calls can screen them and only awaken the pastor if it is a major emergency.
HOW ACCESSIBLE are you to calls from members during off hours?
What method do you use to screen calls, especially at night? Sadly, at that newly widowed church members worst day of her life, I had to share that we were unable to reach her pastor.
Doyle
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Acts-celerate Owner
Posts: 6957
11/26/15 6:49 am
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sheepdogandy |
I give out cards with my contact information.
I give out cards that stick to the fridge with said information.
My contact info is printed in the Church bulletin every Sunday.
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Charles A. Hutchins
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Congregational Church of God
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 7298
11/26/15 8:14 am
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| Disconnection is the norm |
Mat |
Doyle,
Disconnection is now the norm for the pastor/attendee relationship these days. Those who attend church want to be "less accessible and accountable" as to giving contact info and making commitments like membership. Many pastors have "returned the favor" by keep themselves at arms length by reducing their accessibility. While the pastor of a large church has staff who can be contacted 24/7, the smaller church pastor (who is trying to emulate the "mega-model" pastor) does not have those resources. The small church pastor is the church resource in times of need. So either you're open to contact, or you really need to grow your church to get people to handle these situations.
Someone said, "if you don't like the smell of sheep, you don't want to be a shepherd."
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
11/26/15 8:25 am
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Cojak |
I have noticed what Mat commented is true in our area. A distance has been built. Funny the churches are about the same size or less for 30 years and the pastor is less assess able. AS always, good points and bad points, but in the case of the OP, the info should have been left with the patient/family in case! BEcause more folks die in the hospital than anywhere else, and as in that case, death is NOT expected MANY times.
As a member I like to feel that my pastor is concerned about my family. For me I? I don't worry about it. 
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Posts: 24277
11/26/15 6:53 pm
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revuriah |
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JLarry |
The timing of this thread is interesting to me.
I video taped a TV program Sunday night. It was actually a live program but will be aired at other times. I just received a call that the program will be aired at 9:00 pm tonight.
The guy who produces it advised me to give out my personal cell phone number in case someone want to be saved or needs someone to pray with them. The first program I did not give my number. Since then I have given my my number over the air. Thank God, I have not been bothered by those who want to call and just talk or have petty things (example, my sore toe) to talk or pray about.
I am not a full time pastor. I work just like most Christians. But I felt I must give a contact just in case someone needs prayer for salvation.
My program air's on 29 local Mediacom stations in my area. Cities from populations of 80,000 - 1,000.
I have no way of knowing how many viewers we have. But if only one person comes to Christ, I have been successful. And I would personally consider it an honor to be the one who pray's with them to accept Christ.
The last program was about the need of Salvation. I would appreciate if you will pray that those who need salvation will tune in and receive Christ.
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No one who died without Christ is happy about their decision. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
11/26/15 7:39 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
| Am I reading this right, that the expectation was that you'd be able to speak to the pastor at 4:15am? (Not making a commentary with the question, just making sure I understand the post.) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/27/15 6:41 am
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| I serve as an "on call" chaplain |
Mark Ledbetter |
at our local hospital and generally my call-outs are to ER or ICU after someone dies.
Regardless of the time I always ask if the family has a pastor they would like for me to call.
When I served as a pastor (28 years), on occasions I received late night/early morning calls requesting my presence after the death of church or community member.
Always thought it was part of my service, and commitment, to the church and community.
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11/27/15 8:44 am
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Nick Park |
In our church there are probably only five or six people who have my home phone number. Everyone has my cellphone number, but that would certainly be on silent at 4am.
I'm not sure that the issue in the scenario described is so much that of a disconnected pastor as that of either a disconnected member or of a dysfunctional church.
I don't see the pastor's job as being that of a chaplain to be there night or day to minister to the church members (that is the Catholic priest model, an unbiblical bottleneck that has often been uncritically adopted by Protestant churches) . The pastor's job, if I understand Ephesians 4 correctly, is to prepare the saints for the work of the ministry. So what does this look like in practice?
If a member of our church is suddenly bereaved or rushed into hospital, then they are part of a worshipping community. Within hours, other church members will be there. Some will prepare food, some will look after kids, some will pray with folks, some will provide transport. That's how families work, and it's how the church family should work.
At some point someone will probably say, "Hey, shouldn't we let Nick know about this?" At which point I'll get sent a Facebook message or an SMS letting me know what's happening. Usually, by the time I get to a hospital or a funeral home, my role as pastor is totally superfluous, the church members are already caring for one another far better than I ever could.
If, for any reason, I need to be notified in the middle of the night, then someone will contact one of our pastoral team (the only people who have my home number). They will then make a judgement call whether to phone my landline or to leave it until after 6am.
It's not a case of being uncaring or unavailable - just understanding what the biblical role of a pastor is.
The only way I can see a scenario unfolding like the one in the original post would be if the person who died wasn't really part of the church family, but was just a nominal member with no connections in the body.
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Posts: 1021
11/27/15 10:57 am
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Cojak |
This is one of the posts I do not understand. I cannot imagine my dad, unplugging his land line (since that is all we had) at night.
We have a pretty large family. If my son is in a wreck at 2AM and critically injured I WANT TO HEAR the phone. I don't care if the other brother is there, I want to be there. Minutes and hours can make the difference in saying the last good by, or holding a loved one's hand as they leave. I know this, I was in plane circling Charlotte, NC unable to land due to weather. WE were diverted to Tennessee. My dad died while I was rushing in a rental car to get there.
I did not pastor long, but I did hold to my dad's attitude, call me AT ANY TIME! You are family. There are some positions that cannot be delegated. I guess I am out of touch, but I certainly agree with the sentiment of Doyle here.
The local Methodist pastor told his congregation, NEVER call me on Monday, there is nothing so important it cannot wait until Tuesday? That attitude amazes me. But it is possible over the years I have expected too much of the Church Pastor. 
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11/27/15 11:27 am
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bonnie knox |
Cojak, I had made a response to this thread, was interrupted, came back and deleted the response. I appreciate your weighing in with your unique perspective as preacher's kid, former pastor, and member.
Yes, I would expect my pastor to answer the phone at 4:15 am if my husband died unexpectedly, although it is most likely I would call some blood relatives (who are also believers) first. There aren't too many things that are worth interrupting someone's sleep for, but an unexpected death is one of them. Now if it was an expected death, say following an illness, or a time of decline from old age, the phone call would probably wait until 8:00 am.
Our church puts out a directory which has everyone's contact info. Our church answering machine has the pastor's cell phone on it. Our church website has the pastor's cell listed. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
11/27/15 11:49 am
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Dave Dorsey |
| Nick Park wrote: | I don't see the pastor's job as being that of a chaplain to be there night or day to minister to the church members (that is the Catholic priest model, an unbiblical bottleneck that has often been uncritically adopted by Protestant churches) . The pastor's job, if I understand Ephesians 4 correctly, is to prepare the saints for the work of the ministry. So what does this look like in practice?
If a member of our church is suddenly bereaved or rushed into hospital, then they are part of a worshipping community. Within hours, other church members will be there. Some will prepare food, some will look after kids, some will pray with folks, some will provide transport. That's how families work, and it's how the church family should work. |
Agree 100%. I know my pastor would answer a 4:15 call and would come to do whatever he could, but there are many in the church who are graced to do better. At some point, I would let him know because I know he would want to know so he could pray with and for me.
We tend to have a very immature view of the ministry of the church -- a very Catholic view, as you pointed out. If something happens, we need the senior pastor there on the scene to be our lifeline to Jesus. No one else will do. What if the pastor was working night shift at his second job and getting a cell call would have gotten him fired? What if he had a bad cold and had taken some night-time cold medicine? What if any of the million other things that could explain this situation had happened?
Was there an attempt made to call the elders or deacons of the church? Maybe this guy is a rotten shepherd, I don't know. But I wouldn't automatically assume that after failing to get a hold of a guy at 4:15 in the morning. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/27/15 2:46 pm
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| Re: Disconnection is the norm |
Dave Dorsey |
| Mat wrote: | | So either you're open to contact, or you really need to grow your church to get people to handle these situations. |
I do agree with this. If you pastor a small church and the community isn't there, it's understandable you'll be the go-to guy, and if you want to share that responsibility, then you can develop leaders who can help you do so.
Nevertheless, we're all assuming the pastor isn't open to contact because a couple of Google searches didn't reveal his information. Maybe he's not web-saavy and has no idea how to get his information out there. I'd really like to hear his side of the story. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/27/15 2:50 pm
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Link |
Have you still not been able to contact him?
Did you try looking for other pastors numbers in the same denomination in the local area or going straight to the next person up on the ladder in the denomination (AB, district overseer, or whatever the equivalent is?) Another pastor in the denomination may have his number or the number of a regional official who has his number.
I preach on community television, a fancy name for public access. I used to just put on my email address. I didn't know it, but my wife put our home number for her shows. The station told me I had to put a street address or phone number on the screen. I went with a phone number. But between the two of us, we've probably gotten less than a dozen calls in the past year or two. I may have only gotten one, but I put my number on only a few months back. (e.g. http://olelo.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=19&clip_id=50299 )
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Posts: 11849
11/27/15 6:24 pm
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| The Shepherd Model of Ephesians 4:11 |
Mark Ledbetter |
I understand what Nick Park is saying and believe it to be true. There are many sitting on the pews, especially those gifted with "mercy," who, if trained, would be an added service to the Body of Christ and a grateful Pastor.
Yet, the Shepherd (Pastor-Teacher) model is just that and is something that bothers me.
As a hospice chaplain I visit many with life-limiting (terminal) disease and elderly.
There are a significant number of my patients who receive no contact from the pastor or members of the congregation. To have a patient say their pastor visits, or someone from the congregation visits, is an exception.
If this was an isolated case I'd say there may be some history, but for so many to say they never hear from their church is appalling.
The "Don't Call Me but Call Someone Else" Seminar is one I missed, but it must be popular, especially among younger (that is 40 years and younger) pastors.
I hate to seem harsh but it really bothers me when a Shepherd has so little regard for his sheep, whether he/she fails to visit or fails to equip the saints for this seemingly forgotten group - the ill, the elderly, the shut-in.
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11/27/15 10:14 pm
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Dave Dorsey |
Why are you people assuming this guy doesn't care for his sheep on the basis of the evidence presented here????
Doyle wasn't able to find his number at 4:15 AM. THAT IS ALL WE KNOW! We don't know that he was intentionally trying to hide his number, we don't know that he has so little regard for his sheep, we don't know that he fails to visit them when they need him.
Where are you guys getting this stuff??? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/27/15 11:09 pm
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| Dave, |
Mark Ledbetter |
| Dave Dorsey wrote: | Why are you people assuming this guy doesn't care for his sheep on the basis of the evidence presented here????
Doyle wasn't able to find his number at 4:15 AM. THAT IS ALL WE KNOW! We don't know that he was intentionally trying to hide his number, we don't know that he has so little regard for his sheep, we don't know that he fails to visit them when they need him.
Where are you guys getting this stuff??? |
There may or may not be a legitimate reason why the pastor in question was unavailable; and I realize the context may suggest I have assumed the worse regarding the pastor in question.
However, I took the opportunity to respond to a general problem and this post opened the opportunity to express my concerns.
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11/28/15 12:23 am
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| Re: Dave, |
Dave Dorsey |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | | However, I took the opportunity to respond to a general problem and this post opened the opportunity to express my concerns. |
Understood. There's no denying some pastors unfortunately do act that way. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
11/28/15 12:33 am
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| My church is small in numbers |
Ernie Long |
and while we are growing, I am taking the opportunity every Sunday to tell the church to look around and see who isn't in service. We pretty much have the same people every service. When everyone has had a chance to look around, I tell them to call those who are missing in service. We have a current and up to date church directory, so everyone has each others correct contact information including mine and my wife's.
People are telling how good it is to receive a call from someone else other than the Pastor or his wife. It makes them appreciate a church where they feel someone cares for them.
1 Corinthians 12:26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
Can we stop bashing Pastors? We all know lazy ones and man when we have an opportunity to let others know, we jump on that wagon and ride it till the wheels fall off.
I don't know of any Pastor who wasn't a lay person first, maybe some of you do. But, we all have experience a time when we haven't been able to reach our Pastor. What if Doyle had been able to contact this lady's Pastor and they showed up and was an insensitive jerk. Would it have made the situation any better by them being there?
I served under a Pastor for several years that made it clear that he wasn't available to all the church. He rarely knew what was happening with my family, but I didn't run to everyone in the church and bashed the man.
Some Pastors are called of God, others are just called... |
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Posts: 1050
11/28/15 10:38 am
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| I can teach members... |
Mark Ledbetter |
What to do and say, and what not to do and say
How to listen with an "empathetic ear"
How to discern and identify genuine needs
The limits to their scope of service
The true meaning of compassion and mercy
The nature and purpose of Grief Support Systems and how to facilitate Grief Support Sessions
Continuous Care for Congregation Members
Senior Care: Caring for the Special Needs of the Elderly and Home-bound
Care for the Caregivers: The Special Needs of those caring for the elderly and homebound
Addressing Issues of Life-limiting illnesses, the Power of Attorney, Health Care Power of Attorney, Living Wills, Funeral Arrangements, etc.
Contact me at chaplain950@gmail.com
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11/28/15 2:29 pm
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