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Cojak

Walking the Benches

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **11/17/15 10:28 am**

I watched the movie concerning Lakeland Florida. This post is ABSOLUTELY serious.
I am from a time that shouting, walking the benches, rolling in the floor, running the aisles, jerking and 'screaming' were common place.
Over the years those actions slowly phased out.

Simultaneously it seemed we began to be slowly accepted as a 'Real Church'. I have my own theory, but it is a theory. I also think mostly the change is good. BUT were we right? Or were we over zealous.

My mother in law was converted into the COG in the 1930's, her husband who then became a Presbyterian always called his wife and the COG Pharisees (along with being crazy).
again: BUT were we right? Or were we over zealous.
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devil disturber

New Member Posts: 11 **11/17/15 10:34 pm**

No we were not over zealous!!! Those expressions of worship were genuine and heart felt responses to the Spirit of God. Please note that through the history of Christianity there have been emotional responses to the Spirit. Note that the winners write the history so the Roman Catholic Church wrote church history and who they wished to make heretics we think of as heretics. But in truth many were Spirit filled believers. Note also that the mainline denominations had emotional responses in their early days in our country. God does not just save the soul, but the body and the emotions of an individual. Recently in a Central American country a missionary told me that some of our educators had said that the emotional response in worship by women was caused by their being oppressed. If that is the case let me be oppressed because I have responded in various emotional ways and I was always made the better by the Spirit working in me. This is our heritage and we should not be ashamed of it. We should encourage the emotional response to God, for it is healing and restorative.

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5910 **11/18/15 12:24 am**

I think we were probably somewhere in the middle.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "Pentecostal" worship that involves physical and emotional "outbursts" (for lack of a better word.) But I do think there are times when the emotions are stirred up (and no change occurs) and at other times, the human spirit is stirred by the Holy Spirit.

There are still churches where this occurs. It's up to the pastor/leadership to see that order is maintained. And it can happen where it is perfectly in order.

I think we need to find the balance between what used to be and what is now. (Said respectfully of our heritage...)
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Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **11/18/15 9:00 am**

When I was a kid, I thought the Holy Ghost made people do these things. Now, I understand it to be learned behavior. That's not a slam. I enjoy outward expressions of worship like dancing

JLarry

Acts Mod Posts: 3346 **11/18/15 9:10 am**

In my lifetime the CoG has come from extreme emotionalism during worship services to criticism of any emotionalism.

Acts is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

I have read of criticism of what took place in Brownsville. I personally experienced Brownsville. I did not jerk or do some things I have seen but I have fallen "under the power of the Spirit". I do not do curtsy drop.

In the late 80's my wife and I went to a meeting where the Businessman from Cleveland who became a popular speaker (cannot remember his name now) was scheduled to speak.

Little did I know T.L. Lowery would actually be the speaker. Bro. Lowery was laying hands on folks and they were falling all over the place. We went forward, I had my mind made up that I was not going to fall just because others were. My wife and I stood side by side with our arms around each other. Bro. Lowery laid one hand on her and one on me. We fell together. After the meeting she told me she also made up her mind to not do a curtsy drop. All I can say is we just fell. I must say we both experienced the power of the Spirit that night.

I never go expecting to fall, I go expecting to experience His presence.
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Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **11/18/15 9:17 am**

THE LOVE OF GOD

Friendly Face Posts: 383 **11/18/15 2:09 pm**

I can very well remember the first time that the Power of God surged through me. I had the Holy Ghost already and had seen people shout but I had never shouted like some of these were doing. I went up for prayer for something (a teenager probably close to 17 yrs. old) and I honestly felt the power of God hit the top of my head and my feet within a split second. Have experienced His presence many times. I don't judge my faith on experiences but it surely feels good to feel His presence. I have felt (as most of you have) in crying, praising God, praying in the Holy Ghost and etc. Our churches were a whole lot better then than they are now. We didn't worry about attendance but many churches were experiencing growth by a great number. It seems that things are programed now and doesn't leave a lot of room for God to move. I am not speaking for ALL churches. Years ago, I invited our neighbor to our Pentecostal Church and it was "on" from the git go. A lady was visiting and our pastor asked her to testify as she had received a miracleous healing in her hip and leg. She was a rather tall stout lady and when she began to tesitfy, she would holler and grab her hip. I thought, oh boy, my neighbor is not going to like this - she will not understand. After church, I asked her how she liked the service and she said, You know, you could really feel something when that woman hollered. I left it up to God after that. Give me this old time Move of God anyday than what I have seen in the last few years. I have been in T.L. Lowery services, Floyd Lawhon and someother good ones. I love Tommy Bates ministry. He livestreams his Sunday morning and eve. services and archives them for 72 hours. He is not Church of God but believes the same in doctrine. I have visited his church in special meetings and conferences. They have a time!!! There are other good ministers in our great organization. It is real but our younger generation is not seeing it like we did.

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **11/18/15 2:24 pm**

Old Time Country Preacher

Re: Walking the Benches

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15565 **11/18/15 2:35 pm**

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5910 **11/19/15 11:55 pm**

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **11/20/15 12:28 am**

The Bible says 'Let all things be done unto edifying.' We are all emotional beings. The Bible talks about having joy and rejoicing. Someone can preach or pray enthusiastically, and everyone can be edified.

But I don't believe church should be a place for letting out emotion for emotions sake. For example, 10 minutes of shouting and not saying anything isn't going to edify anyone. Speaking in tongues only edifies the speaker unless it is interpreted, too.

I'd rather see spiritual gifts exercised in a way to edify others than long outbursts of emotion. Seeing someone swing from the chandeliers doesn't edify anyone.
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Old Time Country Preacher

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15565 **11/20/15 12:56 am**

Aaron Scott

Cojak...

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 6032 **11/20/15 7:40 am**

As you well know from your travels and life, there are always extremes.

The difference almost certainly has to be discerned by the Spirit of God. There are people I've seen doing "weird" things that I absolutely felt were of the Lord. And then there are those who seem to be doing it to "prove" how spiritual they are, or to get people to think they are. It grates on my spirit to see such things.

If it draws more attention to US than to the Master, it immediately becomes suspect. He must increase, we must decrease.

I've seen about every form of shouting there is. And I've noticed that many times, folks in the same church shout the same way. Further, whites and blacks often shout differently, as there are distinctive ways that the black church worships.

I think this is NOT because of lack of spirituality, but because they have learned how to express the feelings they have by watching others. The Spirit comes upon them and they don't know what to do...so they express it as they saw the pastor's wife expressing it.

We've been around it long enough to know there is plenty of real. I've never shouted and I've never fallen out. Probably because I tend to express myself in tears rather than other ways. It's just how God seems to work with me (though I did one time want to shout, but resisted, being too self-conscious...I trust I will not make that mistake again).

I don't want to let someone who is "faking it" steal our true expression of Holy Ghost joy and glory.

Cojak

Re: Cojak...

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **11/20/15 2:55 pm**

devil disturber

The false does not negate the true

New Member Posts: 11 **11/20/15 11:45 pm**

I have also seen almost every kind of expression of emotion in church services and have done most of them. Was everyone genuine? No. Was everyone false? No. But those who yield to the Holy Spirit will experience a release of emotions if they are in an atmosphere where it is allowed. We have a late night prayer meeting every week and have had for almost 20 years. One night a man came into the prayer meeting who had never been in a Pentecostal church and was slain by the Spirit. He had never seen it, nor had anyone he knew had that experience. To me this was evidence that it is not a learned experience but a true response to the Spirit.

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **11/21/15 4:42 am**

I had a conversation online once with a COG guy on facebook who seemed to think being Pentecostal was about shouting and having church services that looked like football games.

I've heard preachers tell the audience that people get more excited at a football game that they do at church. But I heard a man from a non-Pentecostal church comment about that. He said, "Why should church look like a football game?"

Reading the Bible, I don't come away with the idea that church is supposed to be about it about expressing emotions or looking like a football game. I'm not saying we have to be robots and that we can't express some emotion, rejoice, etc. But it sure seems like some folks have way too much of a focus on outbursts of emotion and associate it with being spiritual.

Back in the early 1990's when I was in my early 20's still in college, my family moved to a small community in Georgia. If you drove one way, there was a Congregational Holiness church several miles up the road. If you drove the other, there was a COG. We'd moved a number of times over the years and probably spent more time in the A/G or an independent full gospel church than anywhere else. But we'd gone to COGs before, but never a CH church.

We visited the CH church. One woman there got really excited and was shouting and making noise. Maybe she snorted a bit, too. She was overwhelmed with emotion. She seemed to think of that as something holy. She wasn't shouting anything.

I'd probably been in churches that had some shouting, all at once, praise God. "Shout praises to the Lord" or something like that. I suppose there are some Pentecostal people who think of shouting as something that happens to you, where you are overcome with emotion and are supposed to shout or you are sinning if you don't. I don't think like that because I didn't encounter that idea in the Pentecostal churches I went to in m formative years (fortunately) and it's not in the Bible. If Paul would tell believers that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets about a real gift that is clearly Biblical and can clearly edify others like prophesying, then why should I think it's really spiritual for someone to shout and grunt and groan really loud in church when no one understands and is edified?

In some churches, you might see a woman get all excited and jerk and dance a bit, have a 'praise break' and hear someone say 'she got the Holy Ghost.' I think we ought to be careful about that. If someone gets excited and dances, that doesn't mean they got the Holy Ghost. And some of the people there might think excitement and dancing is the Holy Ghost. I'm not against dancing or praising. But I don't see where the Bible teaches that uncontrollable dancing is a work of the Holy Ghost.

I've heard of people who believed its wrong to dance unless you dance in the Spirit, which is supposed to just kind of happen to you. But the passages in the Psalms that tell people to dance command them to do it. That sort of implies they do it by choice, not because their limbs are moving and they can't control it.

I do think some folks get off base in thinking that if a church isn't the same style they are used to or isn't excited enough that it is a 'dead church.' People can be calm and sing songs sincerely to the Lord. A church doesn't have to look like the set of Hee Haw on crack to be spiritual. It doesn't have to have an excited Appalachian style service with a fast blue grass or southern gospel band playing to be spiritual. We shouldn't judge other churches for having a different style or for not being quite as emotional. Some Pentecostals think that way. I think that may come from getting your Pentecostalism from 'junk preachers say' rather than the Bible.

Some people seem to think of speaking in tongues as some kind of emotional outlet, that everyone is supposed to speak in tongues at the same time, and that that is really spiritual. I can't find where the Bible teaches that church meetings are supposed to be made up of people using tongues as an individual emotional outlet, or dancing to blow off some emotions, or shouting to release emotions. Speaking in tongues in church is to be done in a way that edifies others, which means to be followed by an interpretation.
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Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5910 **11/21/15 9:41 am**

I suppose some people's Pentecostal worship could be something they've "learned" to do. But I also believe there is genuine worship that involves running, shouting, dancing, jerking, etc.

As for its being Biblical, what do you think the disciples et al were doing on the Day of Pentecost for them to be supposed to be drunk? They were acting like they were drunk!

When the Holy Ghost comes on someone, He can do more in 5 minutes than than we could do in 5 days. His presence makes all the difference. There is strength in corporate worship, just as there is in corporate prayer, that we don't experience individually, IMHO.

But I don't think a run/shout/dance kinda service should be what it's all about. We need the Word. We need balance. The Holy Spirit should be welcome in our services (which doesn't necessarily mean running or shouting...it could be tears/worship/messages in tongues, etc) but there should also be order. As I've said before, it's up to the pastor/leadership to make sure things don't get out of hand. There are times for Pentecostal worship, and there are times to sit down and be quiet.

I once heard a minister say he'd asked the Lord about a woman jerking in the service as the Spirit was moving. What he felt like the Lord spoke to him was that this woman's body was feeling the power of God and her spirit was trying to break free of her body, but her body wouldn't let her. That might sound crazy to you, but it made sense to me.

Worship is much more than shouting and dancing, but I think we place our churches at a disadvantage if we dismiss it all as learned behavior. Sometimes people find great deliverance and breakthrough when they experience God's power in this way. I'm not saying they should take over the service, but I'm saying it should be allowed if it's appropriate.
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Cojak

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24277 **11/21/15 10:29 am**

I have been in the COG all my life. WE only moved 6 times in my 16 years at home. Every church was different. But they all at one time or the other had shouting services.

I have attended maybe 100 COG's in the past 15 years on the road and none had the types of services I knew in NC. BUT I felt the same spirit of love and fellowship in most of them. I had no doubt these folk were Christian. It is a fact to me that we have accepted a different attitude in our worship. When we were known as 'Holy Rollers' I always got the feeling away from COG people that we were considered Crazy or a Cult. WE were 'tongue-talkers' or 'Holiness' people.

I honestly believe WE love the Lord as much. I believe we care about souls as much, but with a big difference in out worship!

We gained nothing by shouting loud, then condemning 'robed choirs', church bulletins, makeup and hair. Giving dirty looks at a woman with make-up on or wearing 'britches'.

WE are definitely a different church today. No I do not think we were wrong, but our attitude was definitely leaning to the Pharisee, we looked at the sinner and said "I thank God I am not like him/her, I dress holy etc...". JMHO
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/

Carolyn Smith

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5910 **11/21/15 10:59 am**

DrDuck

Acts-celerater Posts: 755 **11/21/15 11:52 am**