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John Jett |
| I think you've got Aaron's view figured out pretty well Bonnie. I just hope it doesn't escalate to the point of our old brother Shane V. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/29/15 7:25 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | Bonnie,
I've read pretty extensively on "kephal�" being limited restrictively to the concept of life source or life source - it is pretty much agreed that it breaks down. However, that is not really the issue at hand. The issue is taking the analogy beyond it's intended purpose. But that opens the door to a long discussion where proof texting starts to fly and discussing theology really goes out the window.
Good luck! |
I have linked on Acts before to Alan Johnson's "A Meta-Study of the Debate over the Meaning of Head in Paul's Writing."
I read it all and tried to absorb it. I never found "source" quite satisfying as a meaning though Gilbert Bilezekian (sp?) did a good job arguing for it, I thought. It was his writing that made me question just which aspect of the relationship of Christ to church is being spoken of in the Ephesians 5 passage (and, similarly, the relationship of Christ to man in the passage in 1 Corinthians). That is why I asked Aaron why he assumed that was the characteristic being discussed. I probably didn't word my question very well.
There are lots of thoughts running through my mind at once as well as questions I haven't answered to my own satisfaction. I did finally buy the book you recommended, Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy. (I've read bits and pieces of it; I tend to jump around rather than reading straight through.)
Yeah, I probably could use a little good luck. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/29/15 8:04 pm
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| Bonnie... |
Aaron Scott |
| Quote: | | It has worked for 6000 years? All the abuse and oppression that has been heaped upon women, and you call that a system that works? |
Look, God instituted it. Not me. It came because of sin, but it came nonetheless.
(Genesis 3:16 KJV) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
When women stop having pain in childbirth, I will assume the curse is lifted and we can get back to normal.
But let's not act like it's been one, long 6000-year act where women have been in chains and slavery every day of their lives. That's just not the case.
Have there been abuses? Of course! Everything gets abused at some point.
My point about the women keeping silence in the church is NOT because I think that is what was intended as a model for all future churches! Rather, I was trying to point out that Paul say it to be a usurpation of AUTHORITY. That is, the women did not have the AUTHORITY...unless it was granted to them.
Nor did I EVER say no woman has authority. A woman should have ENORMOUS authority! My wife has a tremendous influence on me. My mother certainly did. My grandmother certainly did. However, a woman's authority (and by "woman," I mean "wife") is not over the man. She can certainly influence him--and she does. We're the better for it! But as best I can tell from the examples in the scriptures, the wife plays a First Counselor role to the husband's Executive role. She advises, persuades, etc., but the decision lies with the man. He may be fine with his wife deciding. Great. But read the scriptures and see how many times you find a wife leading the family or telling the man what they will be doing. Instead, you see Jacob deciding to return home...you see Jacob making decisions for his family. On and on.
Further, you see God speaking almost exclusively to and through men. Was God being abusive? Was God not aware that in selecting on male apostles, He was setting a really terrible precedent?
My beloved sister, I know that you feel strongly about these things. I want to be clear that I in NO WAY am for a woman being hurt, abused, belittled, or made less than all of what God intended. My only goal is to simply say that, at the end of the day, I think the husband is the one who leads and heads the home--or should be.
If he fails, that's on him. If he abuses his headship and thinks that means being controlling and harsh, that's sad. Perhaps it is because I was blessed with a mother and father that worked in wonderful harmony in the ministry...and yet it was always clear to us children that while our mother could do almost anything she wanted, IF my dad made a decision that went in a different direction, she aligned with that with ease. It was clear that though he was a reserved man, when he spoke, he was the head.
And since there was no abuse in our home, and since my mother could always come and go as she pleased, etc., there was not any negativity associated with my father's headship/authority. Admittedly, I may be basing this on an unrealistic model, but that is what my intent and aspiration is. Had my father been the least bit unkind in his dealings, I'm sure that us kids would not hold him in such high esteem.
At the same time, I realize that has not been everyone's experience. Some may have seen gross abuse or harshness...may have seen domination and anger masquerading as headship. For that, they would have my sympathies.
But in it's best form, I think God's model is the best we can hope for in the present world. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/29/15 8:39 pm
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bonnie knox |
Do you think women should have pain killers in childbirth or should she just SUFFER since that is what God instituted (to use your words)?
If you are consistent in saying the results of the fall are to be adhered to, you would say that pain in childbirth is what God instituted. Therefore we should not try to alleviate it. And if we object, why, we are arguing with God!
(The 12 apostles were male to correspond with the 12 tribes of Israel. But of course, they were Jews as well. That doesn't mean the Jews are superior in the kingdom or that they have authority over the Gentiles, does it? Galatians 3:28
And Junia was an apostle.)
And of course God's model is best. Look at his original model and the trajectory of Christ's dealings with women. As far as the authority mentioned in 1 Timothy, I think you have a blind spot to what Paul is saying there. All I can say is that you are reading it with preconceived notions, but I'm not sure how to explain it to get past that. As far as who has authority in the church, that is up to God.
| Quote: | ...I think the husband is the one who leads and heads the home--or should be.
If he fails, that's on him. |
I've heard that over and over and have come to see that as being lame. If a husband is doing something stupid and God has gifted him with a wife who knows a better way to do, then it makes no sense whatsoever for them to proceed down the man's stupid path. I seems I've heard that more from women as a consolation that if they will just do whatever their husband has decided it will be all good because even if it's the wrong path, well, he's the head and he will answer to God. So I guess Abigail shouldn't have taken it on her rebellious little self to go out there and give David and his men provisions. She should have just submitted her little rebellious self to churlish Nabal who had already DECIDED upon the authority of his HEADSHIP and decreed that he (i.e., the household that he was the HEAD of) would not give David a crumb. She was not rebelling so much against Nabal as she was against God and the order that God had instituted! |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/29/15 9:37 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| bonnie knox wrote: | Do you think women should have pain killers in childbirth or should she just SUFFER since that is what God instituted (to use your words)?
If you are consistent in saying the results of the fall are to be adhered to, you would say that pain in childbirth is what God instituted. Therefore we should not try to alleviate it. And if we object, why, we are arguing with God!
(The 12 apostles were male to correspond with the 12 tribes of Israel. But of course, they were Jews as well. That doesn't mean the Jews are superior in the kingdom or that they have authority over the Gentiles, does it? Galatians 3:28
And Junia was an apostle.)
And of course God's model is best. Look at his original model and the trajectory of Christ's dealings with women. As far as the authority mentioned in 1 Timothy, I think you have a blind spot to what Paul is saying there. All I can say is that you are reading it with preconceived notions, but I'm not sure how to explain it to get past that. As far as who has authority in the church, that is up to God.
| Quote: | ...I think the husband is the one who leads and heads the home--or should be.
If he fails, that's on him. |
I've heard that over and over and have come to see that as being lame. If a husband is doing something stupid and God has gifted him with a wife who knows a better way to do, then it makes no sense whatsoever for them to proceed down the man's stupid path. I seems I've heard that more from women as a consolation that if they will just do whatever their husband has decided it will be all good because even if it's the wrong path, well, he's the head and he will answer to God. So I guess Abigail shouldn't have taken it on her rebellious little self to go out there and give David and his men provisions. She should have just submitted her little rebellious self to churlish Nabal who had already DECIDED upon the authority of his HEADSHIP and decreed that he (i.e., the household that he was the HEAD of) would not give David a crumb. She was not rebelling so much against Nabal as she was against God and the order that God had instituted! |
Excellent post!
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5915
10/29/15 10:13 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
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| Just a brief reflection & response |
Poimen |
I think confrontation is a necessary component of dealing with differences, especially persistent differences that cause division and hurt, for both husbands and wives. However, forced submission is actually subjugation. Scripture tells us to rule our homes well, yes, but it does not say to subjugate our wives.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
10/30/15 12:28 am
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| Bonnie... |
Aaron Scott |
May I suggest that rather than it being my prejudices, it might be that you are so opposed to the concept of male headship that it might be that you are the one that is seeing things in a skewered fashion? My position certainly squares with the words and examples of scripture, I think.
As for Abigail, etc., didn't I write earlier that a we ought to obey God rather than men? No woman is EVER required to follow a man into sin or rebellion. EVER! The whole concept of "God rather than men" is an escape clause from such things.
At the same time, no woman is called to follow a man into destruction. That's just the right of self-preservation.
However, that is not really what I think your point it. I don't think it's really about these extreme cases, but that it's really about a wife saying, "I don't have to do anything I don't want to."
And you don't! But that's not submission.
Let me ask YOU a question: What DOES submission mean if it does not mean what most take it to mean? You have to deal with that at some point.
As for Junia, I don't agree that she was an apostle. But even if she was, it was certainly the EXCEPTION for a woman to be an apostle, wasn't it?
Again, I think this all comes down to personal experience. If someone has had, say, a very hard row to plow due to a domineering husband, that is going to cause them to think that "submission" is a very negative thing. But wouldn't that be about like dismissing the office of pastor because of having a bad experience with a pastor?
Submission, as Poimen rightly points out, is not subjugation. Submission is VOLUNTARY. Subjugation is forced. No one really has to submit if they don't want to. Right? I don't HAVE to listen to my boss. I can flaunt what he says. But there are consequences. In the case of submission, I imagine that will have spiritual consequences, as well.
Last thing, and to repeat, a woman should ALWAYS seek to do the right thing by God. That's what Abigail did. I've even heard of women disobeying their husbands to attend church. A woman should never do a moral or spiritual wrong because of her husband, AND she should always seek to do the morally and spiritually correct thing. Otherwise, be submissive.
There is a difference in such cases between PRINCIPLE and PREFERENCE. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/30/15 4:58 am
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Old Time Country Preacher |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Abigail shouldn't have taken it on her rebellious little self to go out there and give David and his men provisions. |
Preach on, Miss Bonnie. You can do this on Acts, but you gotta remain silent in the church. Well, in Aaron's church.  |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 15570
10/30/15 5:43 am
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| FYI... |
Aaron Scott |
I DO believe in women ministers. Have had them in my own church. I do NOT AT ALL subscribe to the belief that a woman cannot speak/minister in the church.
OTCP might try to paint me that way, but that's not the case. I do believe a wife is to be in submission to her own husband. I do believe that God ordained men to lead. NOT because they are smarter or better (consider that while Eve was deceived, Adam went into sin with his eyes wide open), but because that's the way it seems to me that God designed it.
So while I know that the standard course of action in such arguments is to paint others a philistines or ogres, THAT is not an argument. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/30/15 7:27 am
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bonnie knox |
I've already answered that. And I've already also mentioned that it is for all believers, not just wives.
| Quote: | | Let me ask YOU a question: What DOES submission mean if it does not mean what most take it to mean? You have to deal with that at some point. |
By the way, I take a high view of scripture. (Actually I probably take a higher view of the Bible as scripture than you do, which would be a rabbit trail, I'm sure. So, when you say YOUR view lines up with scripture, please don't insinuate that my view does not. We see through a glass darkly.)
| Quote: | | Again, I think this all comes down to personal experience. If someone has had, say, a very hard row to plow due to a domineering husband, that is going to cause them to think that "submission" is a very negative thing. But wouldn't that be about like dismissing the office of pastor because of having a bad experience with a pastor? |
Hey, maybe someone who was born in WV, for example, will have issues with racial equality and with seeing husband and wife as a equal union rather than a hierarchy. I don't think our disagreement is over wives being submissive; rather, I think we disagree that God ordained men to rule women. Sure, personal experience, culture, exposure to certain ideas, etc, all influence our viewpoint. Hopefully the leading of the Spirit will factor in at some point, lol.
Here is a testimony from the late John Kohlenberger III. Probably a lot of us can identify with the culture he grew up in. In my opinion, this is excellent, and I encourage you to read it (only takes 2 or 3 minutes).
http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/personal-journey-male-superiority-mutual-submission
(and I think you meant "flout" not "flaunt") |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/30/15 7:33 am
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bonnie knox |
Thank ya fer the encouragement, Ole Timer. I think tha place I come up short was not workin in the phrase "peeing against tha wall." If Abigail had a follered along with the headship of Ole Nabal, sheeda got herself kilt with all of em--right along with her lord Nabal right on down to the least un what peed against tha wall! Can I git a amen?!
| Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | | Abigail shouldn't have taken it on her rebellious little self to go out there and give David and his men provisions. |
Preach on, Miss Bonnie. You can do this on Acts, but you gotta remain silent in the church. Well, in Aaron's church. |
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[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/30/15 7:41 am
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John Jett |
The bottom line for my household is this.
My wife is a believer. She knows what the scriptures say. Same for me. We are BOTH responsible to each other and to God for our actions. I pray for her and she for me, not that we will somehow fulfill some need to be obeyed or catered too (selfish motivation), but that we will please God in our relationship. I want her to submit (in the right context of that word, not in some subservient manner), so that she fulfills God's will, not mine. She wants me to lead our family and to give myself to her, not to show some hen-pecked fawning man, but to please God. (don't get me wrong, we both fail miserably, many times, but that is the goal someday  )
If I were to feel that I needed to "discipline" her in the previously mentioned manner, I think I'd pass knowing that; A. My "discipline" of her is circumventing God's, and B. Any "change" in her behavior would not be from the heart, and more likely to cause bitterness or worse.
Its been a good discussion but I think its ran its course for me. Be blessed everyone |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/30/15 9:41 am
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| John Jett... |
Aaron Scott |
Why would you not do the same thing for an employee of the church or your business? Why wouldn't you just pray for them, leaving the discipline to God, knowing that if they did it for you it might not be from the heart?
I'm betting because it's socially OK to do that with others...but if you do the same to a rebellious wife, we fear that we will be looked upon poorly, as bigots, small-minded, etc.
It's partiality, I think. Yes, different contexts require different approaches, but to do NOTHING BUT PRAY is pretty much faith without works, isn't it? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/30/15 9:51 am
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| Bonnie...I believe you, but... |
Aaron Scott |
Bonnie, sister, please don't make me read over all this thread to identify what you think submission looks like. I honestly don't know your stance, but I want to. If you'll just post it, I'd be very grateful.
Please...and thank you. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/30/15 9:52 am
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| Re: John Jett... |
John Jett |
| Aaron Scott wrote: | | Why would you not do the same thing for an employee of the church or your business? Why wouldn't you just pray for them, leaving the discipline to God, knowing that if they did it for you it might not be from the heart? |
My wife is not my employee my friend. Adios |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/30/15 10:00 am
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bonnie knox |
| Tom, thanks for your testimony--it was instructive. Seriously, I've learned a lot from you on the forum. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/30/15 10:39 am
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| Tom said: |
Cojak |
Bonnie,
Having been a student of this discussion for decades, I'll offer you a "testimony" more than instruction, as I don't perceive myself in that light. What follows has always been for me a crucial and essential discipline for reading and understanding scripture: As much as is possible, always try and determine "primary intent" on any matter in scripture.The following quote helps clarify: ...
I read this over two or three times (the testimony). I think I agree. I think I like it. In looking back, I know the 'submission' idea has worked to create a good marriage of ignorant teenagers, between my wife and I (17/18 years old). It has lasted nearly 60 years. She has submitted to my desires and wishes and I to hers.
I never thought of it in that sense. I normally read in what I want to, when it is above my head, but I did appreciate what I read (that is serious and not snarky or snide).
I say I think I agree. I am sorta wishywashy at times on deep subjects, but as of now, I feel comfortable with and like the comment (testimony).
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Posts: 24282
10/30/15 11:04 am
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| John Jett... |
Aaron Scott |
Your children are not your employees either. Yet I suppose that you might be willing to discipline them if they are in the wrong and will not comply?
Your volunteer Sunday School superintendent may not be an employee either. Yet I'm sure you would do what needs to be done to ensure proper order and decency.
Don't even give me that argument as thou there is no analogous requirement for you to also do the right thing in your home and relationship with your wife if it is called for.
Your statement gets a huge "amen" from the the choir. It is utterly at odds with commonsense and the scriptures.
Really, you don't think Ahab should have reined in Jezebel? REALLY?
No, our wives aren't Jezebel, but the application still applies. At what point DO you do something? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6036
10/30/15 11:53 am
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John Jett |
| My wife is neither my employee, NOR my child, (like I've said a few times) |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4955
10/30/15 11:56 am
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