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 Pentecostal Seminary |
Charlie Earl |
What is up with the "COG" Pentecostal Seminary???
One student showed me a textbook for a "Pentecostal theology" class this semester, it is a main textbook (MAIN TEXTBOOK!) by a well known lesbian feminist "theologian". Could not believe it --- googled name myself. She was keynote speaker at lgbt conference. a main "theologian" in what is called QUEER THEOLOGY.
She showed me another "theology" required book where author clearly shows his acceptance for homosexual unions. Nothing is ever qualified to show disagreement.
 
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Charlie Earl
Last edited by Charlie Earl on 10/18/15 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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10/18/15 8:00 pm
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Starvin' Darvin |
I have heard rumblings that a big pro-homosexual item will be on the GA Agenda next year.
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Can I have 5 dollars? |
Hey, DOC
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10/18/15 8:03 pm
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Cojak |
I hope you are WRONG Charlie. Hopefully these incidents are to 'splain what not to do.
There are a lot of rules in Educating and approvals, maybe it is required to be ..............  you did not list this theologian's name that wrote the book. That should not be a secret or wrong to say who wrote the book here on Acts, I would be curious!
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10/18/15 8:21 pm
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Cojak |
| Starvin' Darvin wrote: | | I have heard rumblings that a big pro-homosexual item will be on the GA Agenda next year. |
Well SD Imma hoping no one would waste valuable GA time to bring it up! 
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10/18/15 8:24 pm
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drmrc |
Just curious ... would you share the titles of the textbooks and the authors?
Mike Chapman |
Friendly Face
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10/18/15 8:39 pm
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| A thoughtful response... |
OHIOBISHOPBILL |
I'm ABSOLUTELY confident you will find that the leadership of the Seminary or any faculty member that I know would not knowingly endorse such. It would be my humble suggestion that you call PTS and speak with Dr. Vest personally or Dr. David Han, Vice President or the faculty member who is teaching the class and bring your concerns to them.
I'm ABSOLUTELY confident there is another explanation and to publicly call these fine and dedicated servants out in this forum without giving anyone in authority a chance to respond is not fair. You may not have meant any harm and while your concerns are legitimate there is a much healthier way to check these things out.
I sincerely ask you to make the call before you go further to injure those who may not be guilty as you have alluded to.
Bill |
Friendly Face
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10/18/15 8:43 pm
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Charlie Earl |
Kathryn Tanner (author) "Christ the Key"
She teaches at Yale Divinity School.
LGBT Speaker: http://archive.lancasterseminary.edu/items/show/149
Quote from her affirmation of homosexuality:
Kathryn Tanner, Professor of Systematic Theology at the University of Chicago�s fantastic lecture, �Unnatural Associations: Christianity as an Experiment in Human Community� given for LGBT week at Lancaster Theological Seminary 2009:
"For all the opposition to gay rights and gay life that we encounter in contemporary religious debates, there nevertheless exists a deep, fundamental affinity between being queer and being Christian, an affinity whose grounds in Christianity are quite longstanding, abiding, and even traditional."
http://catechumenate.tumblr.com/post/8328513971/kathryn-tanner-professor-of-systematic-theology |
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10/18/15 8:55 pm
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Charlie Earl |
| drmrc wrote: | Just curious ... would you share the titles of the textbooks and the authors?
Mike Chapman |
BOOKS
1. "Christ the Key" - Kathryn Tanner (link/info above posting)
2. Daniel Miglore -- "Faith Seeking Understanding"
quote -page 150
"Barths second assertion must be carefuly qualified to avoid the implication that unmarried persons are nay less called to a life of relationship with others than those who marry, or that abiding friendships AND COMMITTED PARTNERSHIPS OF PERSONS OF THE SAME SEX may not ALSO REFLECT THEIR OWN DIVINE INTENTION THAT HUMAN LIFE IS TO BE LIVED WITH AND FOR OTHERS....while Scripture unquestionably sees the relationship of man and woman as as paradigmatic and foundational instance of life in reciprocal love and fidelity, of commitment to life together with full respect for otherness and difference, THIS IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS A LIMITING OR EXCLUSIVE INSTANCE" - PG 150
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Charlie Earl
Last edited by Charlie Earl on 10/18/15 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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10/18/15 9:06 pm
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Cojak |
Charlie, thanks for the information on books and authors... 
If you make the calls, or anyone does, I would like to know what you learn.
Thanks...
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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10/18/15 9:17 pm
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peterz3fo |
| Charlie Earl wrote: | | drmrc wrote: | Just curious ... would you share the titles of the textbooks and the authors?
Mike Chapman |
BOOKS
1. "Christ the Key" - Kathryn Tanner (link/info above posting)
2. Daniel Miglore -- "Faith Seeking Understanding"
quote -page 150
"Barths second assertion must be carefuly qualified to avoid the implication that unmarried persons are nay less called to a life of relationship with others than those who marry, or that abiding friendships AND COMMITTED PARTNERSHIPS OF PERSONS OF THE SAME SEX may not ALSO REFLECT THEIR OWN DIVINE INTENTION THAT HUMAN LIFE IS TO BE LIVED WITH AND FOR OTHERS....while Scripture unquestionably sees the relationship of man and woman as as paradigmatic and foundational instance of life in reciprocal love and fidelity, of commitment to life together with full respect for otherness and difference, THIS IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS A LIMITING OR EXCLUSIVE INSTANCE" - PG 150 |
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think you are taking the Migliore quote out of context. The broader context of that quote is within a section sub-titled, "2. Being created in the image of God means that humans find their true identity in coexistence with each other and with all other creatures."
Barth's "2nd assertion" is "that human beings are male and female and are called to find their human identity in mutual coordination with their sexual counterparts who are both similar and yet also irreducibly different;" Migliore's point, as I understand it, is that a person is no less "human" if they are unmarried or engaged in a same-sex relationship. He does not give an endorsement of same-sex unions. |
Friendly Face
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10/19/15 8:40 am
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Charlie Earl |
| peterz3fo wrote: | | Charlie Earl wrote: | | drmrc wrote: | Just curious ... would you share the titles of the textbooks and the authors?
Mike Chapman |
BOOKS
1. "Christ the Key" - Kathryn Tanner (link/info above posting)
2. Daniel Miglore -- "Faith Seeking Understanding"
quote -page 150
"Barths second assertion must be carefuly qualified to avoid the implication that unmarried persons are nay less called to a life of relationship with others than those who marry, or that abiding friendships AND COMMITTED PARTNERSHIPS OF PERSONS OF THE SAME SEX may not ALSO REFLECT THEIR OWN DIVINE INTENTION THAT HUMAN LIFE IS TO BE LIVED WITH AND FOR OTHERS....while Scripture unquestionably sees the relationship of man and woman as as paradigmatic and foundational instance of life in reciprocal love and fidelity, of commitment to life together with full respect for otherness and difference, THIS IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS A LIMITING OR EXCLUSIVE INSTANCE" - PG 150 |
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think you are taking the Migliore quote out of context. The broader context of that quote is within a section sub-titled, "2. Being created in the image of God means that humans find their true identity in coexistence with each other and with all other creatures."
Barth's "2nd assertion" is "that human beings are male and female and are called to find their human identity in mutual coordination with their sexual counterparts who are both similar and yet also irreducibly different;" Migliore's point, as I understand it, is that a person is no less "human" if they are unmarried or engaged in a same-sex relationship. He does not give an endorsement of same-sex unions. |
Well, not so sure his over all intent is not as I stated.
It is interesting that this VERY QUOTE is used in numerous blogs to SUPPORT same sex relationships. So, many understand his statement in this way.
I think if you also consider Miglore is a prof at Princeton Seminary and a part of the PCUSA, it would be HIGHLY CONSISTENT, giving his academic and ecclesiastical context, that he would be hold this position on same sex relationships. Survey his name --- it is there.
Is this the best we have to offer in training our students? Really???
Here is one link where the writer took him, and this quote, at face value in "opening the door" to same sex relationships--http://theologyandchurch.com/tag/migliore/
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Charlie Earl |
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10/19/15 9:24 am
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peterz3fo |
Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Friendly Face
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10/19/15 10:08 am
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Charlie Earl |
| peterz3fo wrote: | Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Agree w broad based resources. But, this is not an area like dispensationalism vs covenant theology or cessationism etc. where there are in-house differences.
This is giving a "pass" on something far more serious.
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Charlie Earl |
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10/19/15 12:51 pm
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Nick Park |
| Charlie Earl wrote: | | peterz3fo wrote: | Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Agree w broad based resources. But, this is not an area like dispensationalism vs covenant theology or cessationism etc. where there are in-house differences.
This is giving a "pass" on something far more serious. |
I believe with all my heart that the only legitimate sexual activity for a Christian is between one man and one woman in the lifetime covenant of one marriage. I have argued this in print, and on national TV and radio in my country.
Having said that, I could only argue that point with credibility because I had taken the time to inform myself on opposing viewpoints, and that meant reading, and engaging with, the works of people who believe differently.
If we were talking about a Bible College that exists solely to train pastors, with no serious academic accreditation, then by all means make sure that we only use text books by authors who line up with our views. But if we want to train Pentecostal scholars who will be taken seriously in the academic realm then you simply can't avoid reading books by people who may have seriously way-off ideas in some areas.
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10/19/15 1:04 pm
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Charlie Earl |
| Nick Park wrote: | | Charlie Earl wrote: | | peterz3fo wrote: | Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Agree w broad based resources. But, this is not an area like dispensationalism vs covenant theology or cessationism etc. where there are in-house differences.
This is giving a "pass" on something far more serious. |
I believe with all my heart that the only legitimate sexual activity for a Christian is between one man and one woman in the lifetime covenant of one marriage. I have argued this in print, and on national TV and radio in my country.
Having said that, I could only argue that point with credibility because I had taken the time to inform myself on opposing viewpoints, and that meant reading, and engaging with, the works of people who believe differently.
If we were talking about a Bible College that exists solely to train pastors, with no serious academic accreditation, then by all means make sure that we only use text books by authors who line up with our views. But if we want to train Pentecostal scholars who will be taken seriously in the academic realm then you simply can't avoid reading books by people who may have seriously way-off ideas in some areas. |
Agree to some extent. Not disputing the idea of wide, broad based reading and interaction with diverse theological issues. Agree with that.
But, should it not be balanced by academic theological texts that DO SUPPORT OUR DOCTRINES AND ETHICAL COMMITTMENTS?
Shouldn't there be a balance? I am not sure there is this "balance" in many cases in classroom textbooks, etc.
Just wonder how the rank and file COG member would see this as the mission of their educational institutions?
Do we need to study pentecostal spirituality from a lesbian episcopalian to be credible?
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Charlie Earl |
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Posts: 43
10/19/15 1:32 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| What did they say when you called them? I hope you share it. |
Acts-pert Poster
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10/19/15 4:19 pm
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peterz3fo |
| Charlie Earl wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Charlie Earl wrote: | | peterz3fo wrote: | Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Agree w broad based resources. But, this is not an area like dispensationalism vs covenant theology or cessationism etc. where there are in-house differences.
This is giving a "pass" on something far more serious. |
I believe with all my heart that the only legitimate sexual activity for a Christian is between one man and one woman in the lifetime covenant of one marriage. I have argued this in print, and on national TV and radio in my country.
Having said that, I could only argue that point with credibility because I had taken the time to inform myself on opposing viewpoints, and that meant reading, and engaging with, the works of people who believe differently.
If we were talking about a Bible College that exists solely to train pastors, with no serious academic accreditation, then by all means make sure that we only use text books by authors who line up with our views. But if we want to train Pentecostal scholars who will be taken seriously in the academic realm then you simply can't avoid reading books by people who may have seriously way-off ideas in some areas. |
Agree to some extent. Not disputing the idea of wide, broad based reading and interaction with diverse theological issues. Agree with that.
But, should it not be balanced by academic theological texts that DO SUPPORT OUR DOCTRINES AND ETHICAL COMMITTMENTS?
Shouldn't there be a balance? I am not sure there is this "balance" in many cases in classroom textbooks, etc.
Just wonder how the rank and file COG member would see this as the mission of their educational institutions?
Do we need to study pentecostal spirituality from a lesbian episcopalian to be credible? |
I don't know if you've been to the COG Seminary, so allow me to add some clarity for how text books are used.
An assigned reading is expected to be completed prior to a particular class. The lectures are derived from the professor's own research and notes. In many cases, these represent years of refined study from a Pentecostal perspective. The texts serve as a supplement to what is being taught and a launching pad for class discussions. |
Friendly Face
Posts: 394
10/21/15 12:15 pm
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Charlie Earl |
| peterz3fo wrote: | | Charlie Earl wrote: | | Nick Park wrote: | | Charlie Earl wrote: | | peterz3fo wrote: | Fair points ... I also saw that article you suggested.
When I was at COGTS, Migliore was a supplement text to Stanley Grenz' Theology in the Community of Faith. Faith Seeking Understanding is overall a very good systematic theology textbook. The best we can do for our students is to teach them how to engage authors with whom they disagree. |
Agree w broad based resources. But, this is not an area like dispensationalism vs covenant theology or cessationism etc. where there are in-house differences.
This is giving a "pass" on something far more serious. |
I believe with all my heart that the only legitimate sexual activity for a Christian is between one man and one woman in the lifetime covenant of one marriage. I have argued this in print, and on national TV and radio in my country.
Having said that, I could only argue that point with credibility because I had taken the time to inform myself on opposing viewpoints, and that meant reading, and engaging with, the works of people who believe differently.
If we were talking about a Bible College that exists solely to train pastors, with no serious academic accreditation, then by all means make sure that we only use text books by authors who line up with our views. But if we want to train Pentecostal scholars who will be taken seriously in the academic realm then you simply can't avoid reading books by people who may have seriously way-off ideas in some areas. |
Agree to some extent. Not disputing the idea of wide, broad based reading and interaction with diverse theological issues. Agree with that.
But, should it not be balanced by academic theological texts that DO SUPPORT OUR DOCTRINES AND ETHICAL COMMITTMENTS?
Shouldn't there be a balance? I am not sure there is this "balance" in many cases in classroom textbooks, etc.
Just wonder how the rank and file COG member would see this as the mission of their educational institutions?
Do we need to study pentecostal spirituality from a lesbian episcopalian to be credible? |
I don't know if you've been to the COG Seminary, so allow me to add some clarity for how text books are used.
An assigned reading is expected to be completed prior to a particular class. The lectures are derived from the professor's own research and notes. In many cases, these represent years of refined study from a Pentecostal perspective. The texts serve as a supplement to what is being taught and a launching pad for class discussions. |
Actually yes, very familiar...very.
This is not the case and you are making a generalization of which I have no disagreement.
I am SPECIFICALLY referring to particular text books, mainly one, that is a MAIN SOURCE for a course by an author that is a well known lesbian "queer" theologian at Princeton -- how does this work under your scenario?
Would you or anyone else allow a "supplement" book such as this to be used by your youth, young adult, adult bible study, etc? Knowing the author's theological and ethical stand?
Or, is "ok" as long as it is among the higher educational level?
Just do not think this is the best we can come up with. Are we that impoverished that this is something to defend?
Sorry. Don't think so.
And, I am quite sure those in my congregation, who approve a budget that supports the seminary, would NOT see that as worthy of their tithes.
If it is all good, let's sell it at the Pathway GA Bookstore next year in Nashville. Let's see how long that would last.
My concern, or question, is this an isolated issue or indicative of deeper underlying drift in our educational institutions?
Just asking.
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Charlie Earl |
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Posts: 43
10/21/15 3:42 pm
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Cojak |
There are some good statements here in support of the book (s). I have no idea the costs, but when I heard the price of books my grandkids had to buy, I almost fell over.
I object to buying a book by someone with which I do not agree in basics and is in contradiction to scripture; the objection is also the price and putting money into the hands of a writer 'as described here'. JMO
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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10/21/15 8:31 pm
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Charlie Earl |
| Cojak wrote: | There are some good statements here in support of the book (s). I have no idea the costs, but when I heard the price of books my grandkids had to buy, I almost fell over.
I object to buying a book by someone with which I do not agree in basics and is in contradiction to scripture; the objection is also the price and putting money into the hands of a writer 'as described here'. JMO |
Sad thing -- nobody seems to know anything about the book that I am addressing -- just generalizations about "academia" in general and "this can't be at our seminary"...
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Charlie Earl |
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Posts: 43
10/21/15 9:58 pm
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