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 It's time for States to elect their Administrative Bishops |
Travis Johnson |
The way our system presently works is that an administrator works his way up through our states and regions, effectively getting beneficial training to prepare them for larger assignments. But, in just this one aspect of our appointive system, we have one very large problem. That is:
- No state or region gets the benefit of a sustained leadership/administrative vision.
This may occasionally happen where someone leaps into a larger state fairly early and stays. But, they would likely only last a maximum of 8 years.
In a state like Florida, we tend to get good overseers...in the last 2 or 4 years of their tenure.
In a smaller state, an administrator that does well gets hustled out to a larger state fairly quickly as well..after 2-4 years of the front side of their tenure.
In the end, the rotation of leaders may develop the leadership capacity of those administrators. But, in my view, it doesn't serve the best interests of our particular states...at least not as well as we could.
SOLUTION
1. Lift tenure. Doing this will slow down the leadership rotation (even if ABs are not elected) and give states a shot at having a consistent longer term leader.
2. Allow ministers to elect their own AB. In many cases, this would likely be a minister that has administrative and apostolic giftings from within that particular region. That type of leader would clearly have an intimate knowledge base of how that particular state operates.
Now, if a region didn't have a deep enough bench to select from, that region would be able to select someone from outside. Or, perhaps in the case of a Missions State, as long as a Mission's state status was held, the Executive Committee would still make that appointment. Once a dependency on outside denominational funding was no longer needed, they could begin electing their own leader. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/1/15 12:12 pm
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wayne |
Travis,
I understand what you are saying but wouldn't this take us back to the Tomlinson days? My fear is that too many pastors would become too friendly with an AB and continually vote for that AB for potential preferential treatment. Not saying we have AB's/pastors that would do this but this has happened and I'm sure it would happen again. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1274
10/1/15 1:00 pm
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diakoneo |
Who will nominate candidates?
What exactly is the AB supposed to do? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
10/1/15 1:10 pm
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Dean Steenburgh |
Awesome!
I have asked for years why we can't go to this type of system, it's very A/G to think this way lol.
Cool thing is we could elect our own AB's & if they don't work out we reserve the right to vote them out. An AB from our state/region would be more aware of the culture & the personalities in ministry.
Now ...what do we do to get this activated?
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Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4682
10/1/15 1:37 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| diakoneo wrote: | Who will nominate candidates?
What exactly is the AB supposed to do? |
Any credentialed minister could nominate. The State Council could then inquire as to the availability and eligibility of the candidate. Those names could be presented at the state ministers meeting. Another option would be that the Ministers could nominate and the state council would elect.
Obviously, both would have different ramifications. Either way, it would be a departure from our current method, which just could be better...and more considerate of both the respective states AND the administrator. People don't have to move around their whole life. It's healthy to plant roots and let your kids grow up in a place as opposed to spending your life moving from place to place first as a youth director and then as an overseer.
While this system we are under has some benefits, we can value our people on both ends of this equation better. I think we can produce greater results as well. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/1/15 2:42 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| By the way, does anyone know if a mission state has ever emerged from that designation to become self-sufficient? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/1/15 2:43 pm
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diakoneo |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Who will nominate candidates?
What exactly is the AB supposed to do? |
Any credentialed minister could nominate. The State Council could then inquire as to the availability and eligibility of the candidate. Those names could be presented at the state ministers meeting. Another option would be that the Ministers could nominate and the state council would elect.
Obviously, both would have different ramifications. Either way, it would be a departure from our current method, which just could be better...and more considerate of both the respective states AND the administrator. People don't have to move around their whole life. It's healthy to plant roots and let your kids grow up in a place as opposed to spending your life moving from place to place first as a youth director and then as an overseer.
While this system we are under has some benefits, we can value our people on both ends of this equation better. I think we can produce greater results as well. |
Have you made this proposal before? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
10/1/15 3:05 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| diakoneo wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Who will nominate candidates?
What exactly is the AB supposed to do? |
Any credentialed minister could nominate. The State Council could then inquire as to the availability and eligibility of the candidate. Those names could be presented at the state ministers meeting. Another option would be that the Ministers could nominate and the state council would elect.
Obviously, both would have different ramifications. Either way, it would be a departure from our current method, which just could be better...and more considerate of both the respective states AND the administrator. People don't have to move around their whole life. It's healthy to plant roots and let your kids grow up in a place as opposed to spending your life moving from place to place first as a youth director and then as an overseer.
While this system we are under has some benefits, we can value our people on both ends of this equation better. I think we can produce greater results as well. |
Have you made this proposal before? |
Let me evade the question for a moment and first ask, if this proposal made it to the floor of the General Council, what is your sense about what would happen to it? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/1/15 3:19 pm
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| Sounds great and reasonable but |
sonofasoldier |
Cleveland will not trust states and regions beyond their influence to become autonomous. They will simply not trust pastors in far off regions and states to remain brand loyal. Ain't gonna happen.
The GA could make it happen but Cleveland would make getting it to a vote near impossible. It's very sad but I don't believe your denomination has that level of trust in it's pastors or members. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 589
10/1/15 3:55 pm
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Cojak |
former pastor and now a pew sitter... An idea way past it's time.
Remembering how it is... If the ministers had time to think on it, I think it could pass. If passed the actual voting would have to be staggered or submit a 1st-3rd choices... But I am simple minded on big issues..
This would be a BOON for each state methinks. 
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10/1/15 4:50 pm
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mytimewillcome |
The cliques in each state are loving this idea. Block vote their leader in then they have they control over each church and who goes there (and who is out, of course).
Make it a popular vote, they said. It'll be fun, they said. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
10/1/15 5:14 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | The cliques in each state are loving this idea. Block vote their leader in then they have they control over each church and who goes there (and who is out, of course).
Make it a popular vote, they said. It'll be fun, they said. |
Interesting - so perhaps a church should elect their pastor, as well....so a State Overseer doesn't just fill all the best churches with his close buddies...
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/1/15 5:30 pm
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mytimewillcome |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | mytimewillcome wrote: | The cliques in each state are loving this idea. Block vote their leader in then they have they control over each church and who goes there (and who is out, of course).
Make it a popular vote, they said. It'll be fun, they said. |
Interesting - so perhaps a church should elect their pastor, as well....so a State Overseer doesn't just fill all the best churches with his close buddies... |
Exactly. I'm glad we finally agree on something. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
10/1/15 5:41 pm
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diakoneo |
| mytimewillcome wrote: | The cliques in each state are loving this idea. Block vote their leader in then they have they control over each church and who goes there (and who is out, of course).
Make it a popular vote, they said. It'll be fun, they said. |
You make a valid point.
In a perfect world, we would not be "clique-ish"
I think a better idea would be the general hq would bring names forward for the ministers to vote on. Much as ABs now bring names to churches. It might eliminate some of that stuff.
Then have a very thorough evaluation every two years. Where lead pastors evaluate in specific terms the performance of the AB. That the State Council looks at other specifics related to performance as relates to goals of the state. |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3382
10/1/15 8:05 pm
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BromptonFalls |
Very interesting discussion Travis.
There are obviously some fantastic leaders serving on various state councils and serving as district overseers that have great administrative abilities. As homeboys they know the personalities of certain regions as well as proclivities of certain pastors (that might take an out of state overseer a few years to really grasp).
I would love to hear the pros and cons of in-state overseer elections discussed in Nashville. But in the meantime, I'd like to ask you for some clarification regarding the 1st solution you mentioned.
| Quote: | SOLUTION
1. Lift tenure. Doing this will slow down the leadership rotation (even if ABs are not elected) and give states a shot at having a consistent longer term leader.
|
When you refer to lifting tenure: Do you mean lifting the 8 year tenure limit per assigned state or lifting the 12 year total (or both?)
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Beautiful weather we're having |
Hey, DOC
Posts: 71
10/1/15 8:11 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| BromptonFalls wrote: | Very interesting discussion Travis.
There are obviously some fantastic leaders serving on various state councils and serving as district overseers that have great administrative abilities. As homeboys they know the personalities of certain regions as well as proclivities of certain pastors (that might take an out of state overseer a few years to really grasp).
I would love to hear the pros and cons of in-state overseer elections discussed in Nashville. But in the meantime, I'd like to ask you for some clarification regarding the 1st solution you mentioned.
| Quote: | SOLUTION
1. Lift tenure. Doing this will slow down the leadership rotation (even if ABs are not elected) and give states a shot at having a consistent longer term leader.
|
When you refer to lifting tenure: Do you mean lifting the 8 year tenure limit per assigned state or lifting the 12 year total (or both?) |
I would lift tenure, period. If someone is effective, let them lead for as long as they're effective. If they're no longer effective, the state council or state ministers can express the need for a change via preference ballot (or a real ballot).
As it is, the overseer and state council are required to cooperate on much of the business of a state. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/1/15 8:43 pm
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| OR |
Mark Ledbetter |
we could fast and pray until the Holy Spirit says, "Separate [name] for the work for which I have called."
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Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2109
10/2/15 6:01 am
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| Re: OR |
Dave Dorsey |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | | we could fast and pray until the Holy Spirit says, "Separate [name] for the work for which I have called." |
Why is that an "or" and not an "and"? What you are saying is precisely in line with what Travis is proposing. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 13654
10/2/15 6:07 am
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| Actually, Dave... |
Mark Ledbetter |
suggesting something from how the early church selected, or had selected for them, is flawed - not in the pristine methodology but in the spiritual climate today where the prophetic is abused.
In Acts 13 a prophetic utterance issued the call Barnabas and Saul and the others responded with fasting and prayer the others gave their blessings on the duo.
While I do not dismiss such for today, I still don't see that happening in the Church of God today.
Too many would even make this a political fray, jockeying for who are designated as "prophets and teachers" and delegated the authority to place their seal of approval on the Spirit's selection.
Why was Ray Hughes (s)elected to serve as GO and later appointed President of Lee when it was obvious his "giftedness" was pulpit ministry rather than administrative?
There is a corrupting presence in an elective process, one that creates abuse and misuse not unlike what Wayne suggested in another post.
So, I'll stick with my "or" rather than an "and," at least for now, and until someone can convince me the (s)elective process is best.
When I was sent to a local church to select a pastor, I had this interesting exchange. They had been without a pastor for at least 3 weeks. When I presented the name of the candidate the council asked, "Can we pray about this first?"
I asked, "What have you been doing the past 3 weeks?"
_________________
God-Honoring
Christ-Centered
Bible-Based
Spirit-Led
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Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2109
10/2/15 7:27 am
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| Re: Actually, Dave... |
Travis Johnson |
| Mark Ledbetter wrote: | When I was sent to a local church to select a pastor, I had this interesting exchange. They had been without a pastor for at least 3 weeks. When I presented the name of the candidate the council asked, "Can we pray about this first?"
I asked, "What have you been doing the past 3 weeks?" |
Ouch. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
10/2/15 7:49 am
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