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...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
wayne |
I have heard of Joseph Prince and in fact some of the people in our Church really like him. I don't know much about him but what I have seen, he seems to be ultra grace.
This video shows a gentleman using scripture to counter the assertions of Joseph Prince regarding the subject of this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMWd_ubNMM
What do you know about Joseph Prince? |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 9/17/15 9:47 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I have watched Prince's TV show many times in recent years, and have studied his book, Destined to Reign.
Mr. Sapp is spot on regarding Prince.
Actscelerate's very own bradfreeman will very likely respond in defense of Joseph Prince very soon. He teaches virtually the identical concept of grace as Prince.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 9/17/15 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 9/17/15 12:24 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
The "Kentucky Shyster" you mentioned? |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 9/17/15 12:39 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I have never used that word in referring to him, Eddie. I think you have me confused with Rafael. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 9/17/15 12:43 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
Sorry about that. I saw it mentioned and thought that was you. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 9/17/15 12:58 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
No problemo. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12817 9/17/15 1:11 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
Old Time Country Preacher |
wayne wrote: | I have heard of Joseph Prince and in fact some of the people in our Church really like him. I don't know much about him but what I have seen, he seems to be ultra grace.
This video shows a gentleman using scripture to counter the assertions of Joseph Prince regarding the subject of this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMWd_ubNMM
What do you know about Joseph Prince? |
The above comment in large letters is the most troubling part of this post. If folk in ya church really like the likes of Prince (or anybody else espousing/propagating error), it makes the ole timer wonder if the pastor a that church is preachin a balanced message of expoundin the truth an exposin error. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 9/17/15 1:58 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
bradfreeman |
wayne wrote: | I have heard of Joseph Prince and in fact some of the people in our Church really like him. I don't know much about him but what I have seen, he seems to be ultra grace.
This video shows a gentleman using scripture to counter the assertions of Joseph Prince regarding the subject of this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMWd_ubNMM
What do you know about Joseph Prince? |
Thanks for sharing the video. This fellow is correct that the word convict appears many times in the NT. He, however, failed to provide a single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is convicting believers of anything but Sonship and righteousness.
It's also important to remember, when you are identifying who is pointing out your sin that:
Jesus is not the accuser. John 5:45
Satan is the accuser. Rev. 12:10
The Law brings the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20 _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Last edited by bradfreeman on 9/17/15 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 9/17/15 2:15 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
wayne |
Old Time Country Preacher wrote: | wayne wrote: | I have heard of Joseph Prince and in fact some of the people in our Church really like him. I don't know much about him but what I have seen, he seems to be ultra grace.
This video shows a gentleman using scripture to counter the assertions of Joseph Prince regarding the subject of this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMWd_ubNMM
What do you know about Joseph Prince? |
The above comment in large letters is the most troubling part of this post. If folk in ya church really like the likes of Prince (or anybody else espousing/propagating error), it makes the ole timer wonder if the pastor a that church is preachin a balanced message of expoundin the truth an exposin error. |
OTCP,
I am the pastor of the church. Not sure what church you attend but not all the people in my church agree on everything and personally, I like it that way. I do teach how I feel Ultra grace is in error but I welcome people with differing opinions to attend our congregation.
My opinion of the Holy Spirit is that one day He will straighten all of us out. |
Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1274 9/17/15 2:29 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
Cojak |
wayne wrote: |
I am the pastor of the church. Not sure what church you attend but not all the people in my church agree on everything and personally, I like it that way. I do teach how I feel Ultra grace is in error but I welcome people with differing opinions to attend our congregation.
My opinion of the Holy Spirit is that one day He will straighten all of us out. |
_________________ Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24285 9/17/15 2:41 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
Link |
bradfreeman wrote: | wayne wrote: | I have heard of Joseph Prince and in fact some of the people in our Church really like him. I don't know much about him but what I have seen, he seems to be ultra grace.
This video shows a gentleman using scripture to counter the assertions of Joseph Prince regarding the subject of this post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMWd_ubNMM
What do you know about Joseph Prince? |
Thanks for sharing the video. This fellow is correct that the word convict appears many times in the NT. He, however, failed to provide a single scripture that says the Holy Spirit is convicting believers of anything but Sonship and righteousness.
It's also important to remember, when you are identifying who is pointing out your sin that:
Jesus is not the accuser. John 5:45
Satan is the accuser. Rev. 12:10
The Law brings the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20 |
It's downright foolish to say that if the Spirit convicts the world, then he doesn't convict believers of sin. That's just really bad logic.
That's like saying, "Jesus fed the 5000 and the 4000. That proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus never fed anyone else. Because the Bible says Jesus fed the 5000."
It's the same logic as pointing to a verse about the Spirit convicting the world and using that as 'proof' that the Spirit does not convict believers if they sin.
If you can't find a direct quote that directly uses the word 'convict' in regard to the Spirit convicting a believer of sin, does that mean it isn't true? Can't we read passages about it that don't use the exact same wording.
Consider this passage,
Acts 5
Quote: | 5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. |
How did Peter get this information to 'convict' Ananias of his sin? Would anyone have the gumption to accuse Peter of knowing this through demonic sources? Does anyone really think that Peter just made a really lucky guess, like a word of knowledge lottery? Wouldn't it be more likely that the Holy Ghost showed him this?
If Hebrews 12 tells us not to lose heart if we are reproved of God... do we think that God reproves believers of sin, but that the Spirit of God has nothing to do with reproving believers of sin? _________________ Link |
Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 9/17/15 4:36 pm
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bonnie knox |
Good points, Link. I believe the verse in Hebrews was one used on the video. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 9/17/15 4:40 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
Old Time Country Preacher |
wayne wrote: | OTCP,
I am the pastor of the church. Not sure what church you attend but not all the people in my church agree on everything and personally, I like it that way. I do teach how I feel Ultra grace is in error but I welcome people with differing opinions to attend our congregation.
My opinion of the Holy Spirit is that one day He will straighten all of us out. |
Hey, Wayne, Not even momma an me agree on everthing. She eats her hot fudge cake at Shoney's with a spoon. I eat mine with a fork. But either way, we aint leadin nobody astray.
When it comes to stuff like hyper-grace, WoF, any blatant error, the pastor is the apologete of the church. We sposted to expose error an exposit truth. |
Acts-pert Poster Posts: 15570 9/17/15 6:33 pm
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Re: ...the Holy Spirit does not convict of sin - Joseph Prince |
bradfreeman |
Link wrote: | If Hebrews 12 tells us not to lose heart if we are reproved of God... do we think that God reproves believers of sin, but that the Spirit of God has nothing to do with reproving believers of sin? |
Just like John 16, "unbelief" is the "sin" being reproved. It's the sin that will not be forgiven...doing despite to the Spirit of grace.
It's the role and function of the law to point out sin. The Law says...
Rom. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Why does it matter? Because we need to know the voice of the Spirit...that He doesn't bring "the knowledge of sin", He's not the Spirit of fear, the dis-Comforter, the accuser, the voice or ministry of condemnation. We need to know that He's bearing witness with our spirits that we are God's children, telling us God is our Abba, guiding us into truth, the minister of righteousness (not ours, but His), peace and joy. He tells us what God told Peter in Acts 10, that we are clean. He tells us what Jesus told His disciples, that they are clean through believing His word.
The Law and the Spirit have different functions...as different as life and death, righteousness and condemnation, bondage and freedom, slavery and sonship, accusing and affirming. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 9/18/15 5:39 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Brad, have you ever become aware of something in your life that did not meet the Christlikeness that God has called you to, and desired in your heart to change that thing so you could be more like Him?
If so, what was the agency of this awareness? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 9/18/15 6:20 am
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bradfreeman |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | Brad, have you ever become aware of something in your life that did not meet the Christlikeness that God has called you to, and desired in your heart to change that thing so you could be more like Him?
If so, what was the agency of this awareness? |
Thanks Dave,
That's a great question. It's one that, if we can get to the answer in our own hearts, can free us from tradition, legalism and a lot of other influences that have us working under religious yokes He never asked us to bear.
Who is the agent of the knowledge of sin?
Who was it in the garden?
Who is the accuser now?
If the Law brings the knowledge of sin, I heard the rules from someone.
Was it my training as child?
My mom's voice?
My dad's voice?
Was it a preacher's voice in my head?
God isn't calling me to "Christlikeness" - a life apart from, but "like" Christ's. This can only produce a clean exterior. He has freely given me Christ - a clean interior.
So who is the agent of the knowledge of Him?
Who is guiding me into truth and the freedom it brings?
Who is speaking of Jesus and bringing His words to my memory?
Who is comforting me with affirmation of my sonship?
He is producing His very own life in us.
As He produces the fruit of His life in me, I will find myself walking as He walked, with the same mind as He had.
Can you agree with this statement?
I hope you don't misunderstand me. I don't have any problem with anyone saying "this is how Jesus' walked" or "this is the mind of Christ" or "this is how your Father operates" so that people can know when they are bearing the fruit of His life. But even if they don't even know they've fed Him or clothed Him or visited Him in prison, He is producing a life "well done" in the righteous.
If God is producing His very own life and the fruit of His Spirit in us, then we will be moved by what moves Him. What moves God? What motivates God to love? To forgive? To give? To help?
Is He moved or motivated by shame, guilt, duty, obligation or fear? Or love?
His life in us is freely breathed into us when we believe what we've heard (Gal 3:2).
His life in us is born from that motive. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 9/18/15 7:59 am
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Dave Dorsey |
Hi Brad,
I agree and rejoice that God has freely given us a clean interior in Christ. However, I'm not sure I understood some of the rest of your response, at least in terms of how it applied to my question. (I did understand what you were saying, of course.)
Let me say it another way: I often discover disconnects between that clean, righteous interior and the actions of my "exterior", if you will. For instance, I might lose my temper at someone, and afterwards feel as if I need to apologize to them and ask for their forgiveness. What motivates me in this is God's love. I do not feel shame or guilt that I lost my temper, but I do feel a godly sorrow that I missed an opportunity for my external actions to match the clean interior of my heart.
Is this scenario driven in me by the law, or by a desire for my works to match a certain level of righteousness? Or is it something else? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 13654 9/18/15 8:19 am
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bonnie knox |
Because Satan is called the accuser of the brethren does not mean that any accusation or reproof or correction is of the devil.
In the video, Roger Sapp points out that Christ himself instructed believers to go to a brother and "show him his fault" if he trespassed against them. Why would Christ have someone make someone else aware of his trespass if awareness of sin is of the devil? (And if the Bible is inspired of the Holy Ghost, why would the Holy Ghost impress Matthew to include this?)
As Link asked, was the Apostle Peter being inspired of demons to ask Ananias and Sapphira why they had lied to the Holy Ghost?
Sapp makes the contention that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. If we hold this to be true, what do with make of what the Bible says? Sapp mentions 1 Timothy 5:19, 20 where Timothy is instructed to rebuke an elder who sins before all so that others "also may fear." Is this a Holy Ghost inspired scripture or not? Is this "fear" of demonic origin? Is Paul giving bad advice when he tells Timothy to "rebuke"?
1 Corinthians 11:31-33
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
How can judgment be made with no awareness of good and evil? Why would judgment of ourselves or amongst ourselves be equated to chastening of the Lord? What is the "godly fear" mentioned in Hebrews 12 and is it of the devil?
It seems to me Joseph Prince's teachings are not simply a rightly dividing of the scripture but an overreaction to his own personal experience of trying to live a Christian life without the joy of Holy Spirit.
There are things in scripture that the human mind can only "hold in tension." Personal experiences that wound us in one way or another can cause us to want to resolve the tension. That leads to imbalance. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 9/18/15 9:08 am
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bradfreeman |
Dave Dorsey wrote: | For instance, I might lose my temper at someone, and afterwards feel as if I need to apologize to them and ask for their forgiveness. What motivates me in this is God's love. I do not feel shame or guilt that I lost my temper, but I do feel a godly sorrow that I missed an opportunity for my external actions to match the clean interior of my heart.
Is this scenario driven in me by the law, or by a desire for my works to match a certain level of righteousness? Or is it something else? |
Sounds like the fruit of the Spirit to me. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 9/18/15 9:11 am
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bradfreeman |
bonnie knox wrote: | Because Satan is called the accuser of the brethren does not mean that any accusation or reproof or correction is of the devil. |
I don't think I'd lump accusation in with correction. It's different.
Satan accuses. He uses the Law (Moses) to accuse or bring the knowledge of sin and the associated condemnation, fear of wrath and death.
Jesus, clearly, is not the accuser.
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. John 5:45
A loving Father reproves and corrects.
He is correcting what we believe.
He is renewing our minds so that our lives are transformed.
He is bringing us into truth to make us free.
He is bringing our thoughts captive to Christ's obedience.
He is giving us the right word to believe so that this seed produces His life in us.
The truth brings us into light, life, love, righteousness and freedom.
The lie brings us into darkness, death, fear, condemnation and bondage. _________________ I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted Posts: 9027 9/18/15 9:18 am
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