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Another COG Goes Independent
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Post AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN
It pretty simple...its business 101.

I know nothing about this situation at all but when you break it down to its deeps level it all comes back to one thing....no matter what other reason are given in any of these types of situations.

The client(church) doesn't feel like they are getting their ROI from their consultant(COG HQ).

If I had a client pay me for services or goods at some point there will be an evaluation by the client. They will either come to me and tell me I'm doing a good job or they will tell me they don't think they're getting their monies worth.

Now when I hear the latter, I cringe and tell them we need to revisit the scope of work we're providing to make sure there are no misunderstanding. If we are on the same page and they still feel short changed, then I do one of two things:

1. I give them a better rate than other clients because they have been with me since the beginning.
2. I assign someone else to take the lead to make sure they are getting all the attention they need to try and keep them.


At the end of the day the client is still in control and either makes the decision to stay with me or they decide to do everything we provide "in house."


It has been proven time and time again that local churches DO NOT need the COG HQ Machine....but the COG HQ Machine desperately needs the local churches to keep the wheels turning.
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8/23/15 9:32 am


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Post Cojak
AnOnYmOuS4ArEaSoN wrote:
It pretty simple...its business 101.

I know nothing about this situation at all but when you break it down to its deeps level it all comes back to one thing....no matter what other reason are given in any of these types of situations.

The client(church) doesn't feel like they are getting their ROI from their consultant(COG HQ).

If I had a client pay me for services or goods at some point there will be an evaluation by the client. They will either come to me and tell me I'm doing a good job or they will tell me they don't think they're getting their monies worth.

Now when I hear the latter, I cringe and tell them we need to revisit the scope of work we're providing to make sure there are no misunderstanding. If we are on the same page and they still feel short changed, then I do one of two things:

1. I give them a better rate than other clients because they have been with me since the beginning.
2. I assign someone else to take the lead to make sure they are getting all the attention they need to try and keep them.


At the end of the day the client is still in control and either makes the decision to stay with me or they decide to do everything we provide "in house."


It has been proven time and time again that local churches DO NOT need the COG HQ Machine....but the COG HQ Machine desperately needs the local churches to keep the wheels turning.


Good comparison. WE do not like to associate God's work with business but it doesn't hurt to use some good solid guidelines that have been proven.

Certainly something to think about here my friend. Idea
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8/23/15 1:13 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
Hey. I put the smiley face up just to make NP happy.

Oh yeah, we sing out of the red back hymnal and everyone likes it.

It's not the song book it's the moving of the Holy Spirit that makes the difference.

He is why people attend, always has been.



Like I've said for years, it's your top heavy centralized government that's killing you.

It's going to take more than some "high official" saying "trust us" at a General Assembly.

It's going to take total public financial transparency.

Transferring the property deeds to the local churches.

Using every available means to INCLUDE participation of the local membership.

Just my O.

But what do I know, we have just been doing it for twenty six years.
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8/23/15 3:07 pm


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Post SouthGeorgiaBoy
Nick Park wrote:
When a church goes independent, few of us get to hear the real story. I suspect it's like when people leave a church - God always told them to move (never mind what really happened).

However, each time a church goes independent we have the same reactions here on Acts:

1. The loyalists hint that the leadership of the church must be carnal or unspiritual, otherwise they wouldn't have left.

2. Those who feel passionately about a particular issue in the Church hint that this was the issue which led the church in question to leave.

3. Those with a gripe against Cleveland see it as confirming that the denomination is going to hades in a handbasket.

4. Sheepdogandy can't help smiling.


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8/23/15 7:25 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote:
Nick Park wrote:
When a church goes independent, few of us get to hear the real story. I suspect it's like when people leave a church - God always told them to move (never mind what really happened).

However, each time a church goes independent we have the same reactions here on Acts:

1. The loyalists hint that the leadership of the church must be carnal or unspiritual, otherwise they wouldn't have left.

2. Those who feel passionately about a particular issue in the Church hint that this was the issue which led the church in question to leave.

3. Those with a gripe against Cleveland see it as confirming that the denomination is going to hades in a handbasket.

4. Sheepdogandy can't help smiling.


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It really isn't a thumbs up. In a rather atypical way, my friend Nick Park had a rather fat fingered response.

Brothers like Sheepdog ought not be diminished. Say what you will. There is no cause to celebrate the loss of a brother from our fellowship. Nor should we dismiss his critique of our systems or leadership conflict that give rise to such situation, regardless of how it happened...and regardless of how frequent his critique is. A word of brotherly kindness and affinity would go along way as opposed to belittling humor.

Likewise, we shouldn't dismiss people who have a beef with Cleveland as was the case above regarding the Scot Carter comment in this thread. Someone embezzled $1 million. We have a system that permitted that. I have seen an appointed denominational employee speak harshly and dismissively on Facebook to COG members who awkwardly brought up their legitimate concerns. It is not the best move for us to respond that way.

And, finally at the core of our justification for receiving 10% of TOT is our cooperative efforts. Yet, at the international level, we are appropriating $100,000 annually for church planting. And, after the General Assembly mandated proceeds from defunct churches for church planting or church assistance, we continue to have states use those resources for administrative expenses and other activities. That credibility issue has most certainly caused us to lose the confidence of pastors who struggle to justify the value add the COG has for them.

No one asserted that was the case for Joseph...quite the opposite. I pray that we re-examine our hearts and carve out a different leadership path. This path is not our best.
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8/23/15 9:36 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Travis, sheepdog's first response in this thread is "lol." That was the entirety of his first post. If that was in response to the OP and not the post immediately preceding his, it was totally unnecessary GLOATING.
Somebody should call that whether or not his fingers are fat.
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8/23/15 9:51 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Nick Park wrote:
Travis Johnson wrote:

What would be your assessment as to why 2 of our top 10 churches in attendance (in the U.S.) have left the COG in the past year?


Since you asked this of me as a direct question, I would need the following to give an answer.

a) Which churches you are talking about. I don't have league tables of attendance for the US (or indeed any of the other countries where the CoG operates).

b) I would need to have heard statements from the churches concerned as to why they have left.

c) I would need to be close enough to the churches to know the real reasons (which in these kind of situations are not always the same as the official or spiritual-sounding reasons).

d) I would need permission from those churches to discuss their situation in an open forum.

If I had that kind of info and permission then I might be informed enough to venture an opinion in public. However, as someone who spends over 95% of his time on ministry matters outside of the US, that is unlikely.

Even in that case, I would prefer to discuss it otherwhere than in a thread about a specific church that might have left for entirely different reasons.

I'm not saying that there aren't issues (such as finance and church planting) that merit serious and urgent discussion. What I am saying is that most of us don't know what has happened in this particular case, and yet, as soon as I saw the thread title, I could predict how certain posters would respond.


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8/23/15 9:53 pm


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Post SouthGeorgiaBoy
bonnie knox wrote:
Travis, sheepdog's first response in this thread is "lol." That was the entirety of his first post. If that was in response to the OP and not the post immediately preceding his, it was totally unnecessary GLOATING.
Somebody should call that whether or not his fingers are fat.


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8/23/15 10:12 pm


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Post SouthGeorgiaBoy
Travis Johnson wrote:
SouthGeorgiaBoy wrote:
Nick Park wrote:
When a church goes independent, few of us get to hear the real story. I suspect it's like when people leave a church - God always told them to move (never mind what really happened).

However, each time a church goes independent we have the same reactions here on Acts:

1. The loyalists hint that the leadership of the church must be carnal or unspiritual, otherwise they wouldn't have left.

2. Those who feel passionately about a particular issue in the Church hint that this was the issue which led the church in question to leave.

3. Those with a gripe against Cleveland see it as confirming that the denomination is going to hades in a handbasket.

4. Sheepdogandy can't help smiling.


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It really isn't a thumbs up. In a rather atypical way, my friend Nick Park had a rather fat fingered response.

Brothers like Sheepdog ought not be diminished. Say what you will. There is no cause to celebrate the loss of a brother from our fellowship. Nor should we dismiss his critique of our systems or leadership conflict that give rise to such situation, regardless of how it happened...and regardless of how frequent his critique is. A word of brotherly kindness and affinity would go along way as opposed to belittling humor.

Likewise, we shouldn't dismiss people who have a beef with Cleveland as was the case above regarding the Scot Carter comment in this thread. Someone embezzled $1 million. We have a system that permitted that. I have seen an appointed denominational employee speak harshly and dismissively on Facebook to COG members who awkwardly brought up their legitimate concerns. It is not the best move for us to respond that way.

And, finally at the core of our justification for receiving 10% of TOT is our cooperative efforts. Yet, at the international level, we are appropriating $100,000 annually for church planting. And, after the General Assembly mandated proceeds from defunct churches for church planting or church assistance, we continue to have states use those resources for administrative expenses and other activities. That credibility issue has most certainly caused us to lose the confidence of pastors who struggle to justify the value add the COG has for them.

No one asserted that was the case for Joseph...quite the opposite. I pray that we re-examine our hearts and carve out a different leadership path. This path is not our best.


That is a matter your opinion. I have the right to express mine and Pastor Nick has the right to express his. Thank you for feeling the need to set us straight.
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Post sheepdogandy
My "lol" meant laughing with Nick Park.

Not at anything.
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8/25/15 1:58 pm


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Post bonnie knox
sheepdogandy wrote:
My "lol" meant laughing with Nick Park.

Not at anything.


Oh, really? You have a post on page 1, the third post in the thread. No one posted above yours except Old Time Country Preacher and Alan Wagoner, who started the thread.
Nick Park had not even posted in the thread at that point.
It was (and still is) unclear to me what you were laughing at.
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Post sheepdogandy
My bad, it was OTCP. lol
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8/26/15 7:50 am


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Post bonnie knox
sheepdogandy wrote:
My bad, it was OTCP. lol


Yeah, I can see how you could confuse the two. Wink
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Post This thread is ... Mat
This thread is long on posts and short on details (IMHO). The independent church movement is much like the departure of the U.S. manufacturing to other countries. Some say its just free enterprise and others wave the flag and say its un-American, but there they go. What is the underlying reasons for a local church to depart the denomination that gave it "birth"? That's what I'm interested in.

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8/27/15 7:23 am


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Post sheepdogandy
I have replayed our reasons for years here on Acts.

In short, insane state overseer. imho Smile
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8/27/15 4:45 pm


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Post AussieRain
Andy,

The above comment is out of line. We can discuss methods, approaches, until we are blue in the face, but to use the phrase "insane overseer" is out of line.
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8/28/15 9:11 am


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Post AussieRain
Quote:
if you are faulting him for saying he left because of an overseer who acted deceptively or unrighteously, then you will need to correct me as well. I could give you a list of events longer than you would care to read of those who deceived, lied and manipulated.


No, Tom, that's not what I'm saying. I simply feel that to suggest that a minister or brother, whatever the approach, mistakes or flaws, has a mental disorder, is out of line, for reasons that are obvious to me, especially since he has surviving family members, as I've stated in another thread. If we've reached a point that we can't disagree on decisions and methods without hitting below the belt without regard to consequences, then that's terribly sad. If I'm the only one who feels that way, I'll leave it alone.

While I'm on it, a lot of members of all types of churches have left church altogether because pastors have supposedly acted with the same traits that you listed of ABs. In the same manner that we all would come to defense of the institution of "pastor" in face of those instances, I refuse to paint with a broad brush like some do when they always blame a leader, or the office, or the institution for causing all that's wrong in the world.[/b]
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8/28/15 11:02 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Tom Sterbens wrote:
I could give you a list of events longer than you would care to read of those who deceived, lied and manipulated.

I have said before that I have met too many who have been appointed to positions of "leadership" because they learned how to negotiate the culture of the COG and not because they had observable traits of leadership necessary for the office of bishop.


An my list would be just as long if not a heap longer. I've even got stuff on audio recording where folk in authority blatantly lied, misled, deceived, etc. Ive seen underhanded political tactics, behind the scene maneuverings, fellers brownnosin their way into appointments (an it often worked), tossin their integrity to the wind while playin politics for personal gain/position/titles/etc. Had a few what talked to the ole timer like he was a Kentucky coon hound. BUT, BUT, BUT, it wasn't the COG that done any of it, it was people. Hey, I aint walkin off the gang plank just cause the captain or the first mate goes rogue or breaks bad.
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8/28/15 11:40 am


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Post sheepdogandy
"It was due to an overseer who acted in a manner that seemed devoid of spiritual integrity and any sense of biblical righteousness." ???

Hey Bro Tom, may I use this phrase, it will make me sound educated. Smile

Truthfully, I honestly believe the man in question did suffer from a mental disorder of some kind.

It's the only way I can explain such bizarre behaviour on his part.

A question for your brothers who recognize and admit such wrongdoing occurs.

What have you done to stop it?

Have you brought it up at General Assembly?

Have you requested audience before the Executive Committee or the Council of Eighteen?

Have you taken any proactive steps?

My position outside the authority of Cleveland gives me opportunity to address such behavour.

My platform is this discussion board, as I was invited by it's owner to participate many years ago.

I can assure you that I am more than a one trick pony. Wink
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8/28/15 12:37 pm


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Post renewal
If a pastor wants to leave the COG is fine with me...

However this is not, they destroy the church that they have left.

After spending years trying to build that church they leave and destroy it.

Why is this so true?

Leave that church whole and in good shape, do not destroy the people who supported you for all the many years you were their pastor.

Go your way, do what you wish, but keep that church from hardship..

One more thing, please..

Can you show me in the word where it says that God destroys one church to build another church right down the road?

I will be waiting for the reply...

It will never arrive..
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