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Does Wine in the Bible contain alcohol or not?
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Post Re: Get Wisdom and Support Total Abstinence! spartanfan
bradfreeman wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
Seriously, the mature and serious disciple of Christ should ask, “What is the wise thing for me to do?” I challenge anyone to show me the superior wisdom of drinking “in moderation,” as opposed to not drinking at all- since there is absolutely nothing positive to be gained from any alcoholic beverage that cannot be found in a better source.



Are you saying Jesus was exercising inferior wisdom and should have used a "better source"?

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:33-34‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What does our sipping Savior's life say?


Brad - it's obvious to me that you are a man of intelligence. And I really love your zeal and excitement for the Gospel - even though I feel it to be somewhat misguided. I've argued from the Scriptural point of view successfully that the word "wine" in the English translations of the Bible is used of both fresh grape juice and fermented grape juice. There is no way to "prove" that Jesus drank fermented grape juice if you understand what the word "prove" means. Even if you could you know that He did - fermented wine had a different place in the first century in Israel than it does nowadays. You can't really compare the 2.

Paul's admonishment for Timothy to "drink a little wine for his stomach's sake" indicates that although Timothy needed it for medicinal purposes he was refusing to take it in order to preserve his testimony and not permit for his good to be evil spoken of. If Paul had to instruct him to do so then Timothy was reluctant to for some reason, even though it would be good medicine. Most people don't consider that Timothy was from Lystra and he was on a missionary journey to Ephesus when Paul instructed him to do so. "Don't drink the water" is a common directive to people who travel on missionary journeys because your body is conditioned for your "local" water source and there are often different parasites and microorganisms associated with different water sources from different places. To use that situation to justify drinking alcoholic beverages in America in the 21st century is really a poor application of Scripture that amounts to twisting it to justify something that it certainly is not in any way promoting.

I am concerned about the way you portray Jesus as your "sipping Savior." It seems trite and disrespectful to me - especially since there is no way possible to prove He ever did drink alcoholic beverages. What if He never did and you are painting an inaccurate picture of Him as a social drinker? Are you not even concerned about that?

Probably you and I could be friends if we were geographically located close to each other - and disagree on this without it being a "deal-breaker." But I would not sit around with you while you drink alcoholic beverages- it would be s stumbling block to me.

I realize the controversy over this subject and although as an apologist and somewhat skilled debater I have no problem creating the appearance of "winning" the argument Scripturally and it's even easier to do so from a practical viewpoint. The arguments "against" total abstinence simply don't hold water.

I can submit in closing that even if you think it is "allowed" - it definitely is not "best" and certainly not "wise." And both Scripturally and practically - I win:

New International Version
"I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but not everything is constructive.

New Living Translation
You say, "I am allowed to do anything"--but not everything is good for you. You say, "I am allowed to do anything"--but not everything is beneficial.

English Standard Version
“All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

New American Standard Bible
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

King James Bible
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everything is permissible," but not everything is helpful. "Everything is permissible," but not everything builds up.

Abstinence is simply the wiser and better choice.
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Post krista
Eddie Robbins wrote:
It is legalism when it is a requirement for membership.


And there it is!
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Post Eddie Robbins
Am I wrong?

"One of the primary benefits of our liberty in Christ is freedom from the domination of negative forces (John 8:32, 36; Romans 6:14; 8:2). We are counseled not to put ourselves again under bondage (Galatians 5:1). Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances and refrain from the use of tobacco in any form, marijuana and all other addictive substances, and further, must refrain from any activity (such as gambling or gluttony) which defiles the body as the temple of God or which dominates and enslaves the spirit that has been made free in Christ (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-35; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 5:11; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21)."
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Proverbs 31 to be removed from inspired versions...too legalistic...

Quote:
Proverbs31:4 ...it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. KJV

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Post Eddie Robbins
BTW, there are things that you should be legalistic about. There is nothing wrong with legalism when it is placed correctly. We are certainly legalistic about the virgin birth, for example. Acts-pert Poster
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8/16/15 8:14 pm


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Post diakoneo
Does wine in the bible contain alcohol?

If it doesn't it would seem strange that a qualification for a bishop would he be "not given to wine" 1 Timothy 3:3 or that a deacon be "not given to much wine" 1 Timothy 3:8. There are two different levels of drinking here. "Given to wine" being "staying near wine" and "much wine" where the Greek word polus is used which can mean often, largely, mostly or abundantly. There is something in the wine that gives Paul a cause of concern to make it a qualification.

Paul could just as easily have said, they must abstain. He did not.
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Post Problem with long threads.... spartanfan
diakoneo wrote:
Does wine in the bible contain alcohol?

If it doesn't it would seem strange that a qualification for a bishop would he be "not given to wine" 1 Timothy 3:3 or that a deacon be "not given to much wine" 1 Timothy 3:8. There are two different levels of drinking here. "Given to wine" being "staying near wine" and "much wine" where the Greek word polus is used which can mean often, largely, mostly or abundantly. There is something in the wine that gives Paul a cause of concern to make it a qualification.

Paul could just as easily have said, they must abstain. He did not.


When a thread gets too long - people start commenting without reading all hat has been previously written like:

"When we look at the subject of wine in the Scriptures, we find two main words-tirosh which usually refers to grape juice in its unfermented state, the way it comes from the press as a new agricultural product, and yayin, a word with less clear meanings.

In 30 of the 38 references to tirosh in the Old Testament it is paired with grain and oil, or oil alone, as products of the harvest used for tithe and taxes, etc. Two texts (Mic 6:15; Isa 62:8) refer to tirosh as the product of the grape; four texts (Prov 3:10; Joel 2:24; Mic 6:15; and Hos 9:2) speak of tirosh as produced by pressing. Only one text (Hos 4:11) suggests that tirosh may produce intoxication-and this text may actually be referring to early fermentation or to the practice of mixing new and old (fermented) wine.

Thus tirosh appears to refer almost exclusively to unfermented wine or grape juice. But yayin, the other main word that the Bible uses for wine, clearly means fermented wine in most cases.

The Old Testament uses the word yayin some 140 times. The Bible presents yayin in a negative light 60 times; in about 60 more cases it simply mentions it without making any value judgment, and in only 17 references does it possibly say something positive about it. Thus yayin, fermented wine, is spoken of negatively much more often that it is positively.

On the negative side, first of all, are the stories in which fermented wine produces bad results. Not many (if any) historical narratives in the Old Testament mention a beneficial outcome from the use of wine, but several end disastrously: the drunkenness of Noah (Gen 9:21); Lot (Gen 19:32-35); Nabal (1 Sam 25:36, 37); Amnon (2 Sam 13:28); Belshazzar (Dan 5:1-3); and Ahasuerus (Esth 1:1-10), for example. Isaiah (51:21); Jeremiah (23:9); Hosea (4:11; 7:5); Joel (1:5); and Habbakuk (2:15) are among the Bible prophets who point out the ill effects, both physical and moral, which intoxicating wine produces.

Proverbs 23:29-35 describes wine's immediate physical effects (red eyes and blurred vision), its immediate social effects (strife and wounds), as well as the long-term results (woe and sorrow). Elsewhere, the book of Proverbs refers to wine as producing poverty (21:17) and violence (4:17). Isaiah adds that it deceives the mind (28:7), inflames a person, and leads to forgetfulness of God (5:11, 12).

Those texts which point to certain useful functions of wine should not be overlooked, but they should be placed in perspective. Three texts (Ps 104:15; Eccl 9:7; 10:19) mention that wine can make the heart glad and bring cheer. This indicates an awareness of the immediate physiological effects of alcohol, but these texts need to be placed along side the many other Bible statements mentioning its nonbeneficial long-term results.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 and 10:19 might superficially appear to give approval for indulging in alcohol. In a bit of ancient philosophy, Ecclesiastes 9:7 says, "Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." It is a description of the author's search for those things that bring meaning in life. This text is pointing out that man should be content with certain common duties of life-including eating and drinking, even wine. However, the book ends with the author's finding a greater good to provide meaning in life-that man should fear God and keep His commandments (chapter 12:13). All the other experiences in which the author tries to find meaning fade in significance beside this.

At least seven other Bible texts which appear to speak favorably of yayin do so merely by means of comparison; they are not speaking directly about wine itself. For example, the Song of Solomon uses a comparison with wine four times (1:2, 4; 4:10; and 7:9) to bring out the beloved's beauty. Hosea 14:7 uses the fragrance of wine from Lebanon as a comparison. Proverbs 9:5, 6 uses wine figuratively in talking about the "banquet of life" that wisdom provides. Amos 9:14 and Zechariah 10:7 use the merriment that wine creates as a figure of how God's people will rejoice at the time of His final victory.

Wine was also used as a drink offering in the temple service, just as we see that beer was used in the presentation of delayed tithe. These drink offerings were poured out beside the altar; they were not drunk by the priests.

Thus most of the texts which mention wine favorably actually use it figuratively in comparisons. A few speak of its immediate physiological effects. But by far the majority describe its detrimental results-such as wicked acts committed in connection with drinking wine.

Isaiah, for example, associates wine with the taking of bribes(5:22, 23). Amos combines wine with profaning sacred things (2:8 ).

In summary, the writers of the Old Testament raise four indictments against drinking wine. First, they recognize its immediate adverse physical effects-redness of the eyes, blurring of vision, staggering, and drunkenness in general. Second, they recognize its long-term moral effects-various kinds of immoral and unethical behavior along with the social results of such actions. Third, they identify particular instances of such behavior and connect them with specific persons. Fourth, because of its effects, they prohibit certain classes and specific individuals from drinking any wine.

In contrast to this large negative picture, about the only positive images the Bible gives of alcohol are three texts that note alcohol can produce a state of levity (certainly a valid physiological observation). The Bible writers also occasionally use wine to draw some favorable comparisons in figures of speech. (Yet they also use wine to symbolize some unfavorable comparisons as well. See the "wine of wrath" in Psalm 75:8 and Jeremiah 25:15).

How then should we personally relate to alcohol in view of the overall picture given in the Old Testament? If one takes the whole picture into account and evaluates all the evidence, the most reasonable conclusion is that the only safe course is complete abstinence from alcohol in any form- especially in this generation where we have many other choices of beverages.

My conclusion is that any preacher who advocates anything other than the Church of God position of total abstinence is dangerously directing souls toward bondage and perhaps encouraging them toward the Lake of Fire.

My opinion is that since we don't need alcoholic beverages and there is much more hurt, pain, suffering, loss, destruction and sin associated with it in the Bible as well in real life experiences than there is joy, peace, righteousness and godliness - the responsible decision is to leave it alone and always reach for a better choice." (spartanfan)
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Post Eddie Robbins
and Ephesians 5:18 seems to think you can be drunk on it. Acts-pert Poster
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Post Da Sheik
Spartanfan, you have gone to great lengths using OT proof texts to try and justify the fact that wine isn't fermented. The NT has but one Greek word and it seems almost unanimously referring to fermented wine (with the one exception I gave many moons ago which is translated as "new wine"....also fermented btw).

As a rule of thumb, the harder you have to try to prove a point, the less likely it is to be true. The truth stands on its own. And I will state again, that I (like you) am not an advocate of drinking per se. I am simply stating that we cannot make the bible say what it does not! I have witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of alcohol abuse so I am not a fan.
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Post Re: Get Wisdom and Support Total Abstinence! diakoneo
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Post Wrong.... spartanfan
Da Sheik wrote:
Spartanfan, you have gone to great lengths using OT proof texts to try and justify the fact that wine isn't fermented. The NT has but one Greek word and it seems almost unanimously referring to fermented wine (with the one exception I gave many moons ago which is translated as "new wine"....also fermented btw).

As a rule of thumb, the harder you have to try to prove a point, the less likely it is to be true. The truth stands on its own. And I will state again, that I (like you) am not an advocate of drinking per se. I am simply stating that we cannot make the bible say what it does not! I have witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of alcohol abuse so I am not a fan.


You aren't reading. I said "wine" was used to translate the words for both fermented and new grape juice. My point is easy to prove - and I've proven it over and over. Wine has some positive and negative aspects associated with it. Anything positive found in wine can be found in other sources without the negatives. Therefore, the wisest choice would be to avoid the negative altogether and get the positive from the other sources. What's so hard about that? People don't want to hear it because they want to drink wine. They are not making the best choice and certainly not the wisest choice. You can't argue with that reasoning.
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Post Re: Get Wisdom and Support Total Abstinence! bradfreeman
spartanfan wrote:
But I would not sit around with you while you drink alcoholic beverages- it would be s stumbling block to me.


When you say it's a stumbling block, do you mean it might cause you to drink without having the faith that it's OK? Or do you simply believe it would be a sin for you to be in the presence of someone drinking alcohol?

1 Cor. 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?

Was this grape juice?
Did Paul miss an opportunity to advocate for total abstinence when he told them to drink at home?
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Post People don't "need" wine...... spartanfan
You don't need to drink wine. There are a lot of negatives to it. Anything positive it has to offer can be gained through other sources that don't have any negatives associated with them. Wine in our culture is not necessary while many would say it was necessary to put some in water in the first century in Israel to kill some bacteria and organisms that were harmful. It just doesn't relate the same way to our present day American culture. It is not necessary and the wise choice is total abstinence. You simply can't successfully argue against that line of reasoning. We as a nation would be better off if we did not have any alcoholic beverages sold and consumed in our country. Simple. A cave man could understand that. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post Re: People don't "need" wine...... bradfreeman
spartanfan wrote:
You don't need to drink wine. There are a lot of negatives to it. Anything positive it has to offer can be gained through other sources that don't have any negatives associated with them. Wine in our culture is not necessary while many would say it was necessary to put some in water in the first century in Israel to kill some bacteria and organisms that were harmful. It just doesn't relate the same way to our present day American culture. It is not necessary and the wise choice is total abstinence. You simply can't successfully argue against that line of reasoning. We as a nation would be better off if we did not have any alcoholic beverages sold and consumed in our country. Simple. A cave man could understand that.


We all consume items we "don't need to" consume. The list is long.
Is that a reason to exclude someone from membership/leadership/fellowship?

Are there places in the Bible where specific foods are strictly prohibited? Pork, shellfish.

Is pork the "wise choice"? Would we be "better off" without it? Are there negatives associated with it? Is it "necessary"?

Do you think the COG should adopt a "total abstinence" position toward pork as a condition of membership/leadership?

Do you refuse to sit with people who eat pork?

Do you think the COG should exclude people from membership/leadership, ostracize people ( "I would not sit around with you while you drink alcoholic beverages" ) for not making the "wise choice", doing something "not necessary", or consuming something they'd be "better off" without?

There is, quite simply, a religious stigma attached to alcohol.
There isn't one attached to bacon.
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Post Re: Problem with long threads.... diakoneo
spartanfan wrote:
diakoneo wrote:
Does wine in the bible contain alcohol?

If it doesn't it would seem strange that a qualification for a bishop would he be "not given to wine" 1 Timothy 3:3 or that a deacon be "not given to much wine" 1 Timothy 3:8. There are two different levels of drinking here. "Given to wine" being "staying near wine" and "much wine" where the Greek word polus is used which can mean often, largely, mostly or abundantly. There is something in the wine that gives Paul a cause of concern to make it a qualification.

Paul could just as easily have said, they must abstain. He did not.


When a thread gets too long - people start commenting without reading all hat has been previously written like:

"When we look at the subject of wine in the Scriptures, we find two main words-tirosh which usually refers to grape juice in its unfermented state, the way it comes from the press as a new agricultural product, and yayin, a word with less clear meanings.

In 30 of the 38 references to tirosh in the Old Testament it is paired with grain and oil, or oil alone, as products of the harvest used for tithe and taxes, etc. Two texts (Mic 6:15; Isa 62:8) refer to tirosh as the product of the grape; four texts (Prov 3:10; Joel 2:24; Mic 6:15; and Hos 9:2) speak of tirosh as produced by pressing. Only one text (Hos 4:11) suggests that tirosh may produce intoxication-and this text may actually be referring to early fermentation or to the practice of mixing new and old (fermented) wine.

Thus tirosh appears to refer almost exclusively to unfermented wine or grape juice. But yayin, the other main word that the Bible uses for wine, clearly means fermented wine in most cases.

The Old Testament uses the word yayin some 140 times. The Bible presents yayin in a negative light 60 times; in about 60 more cases it simply mentions it without making any value judgment, and in only 17 references does it possibly say something positive about it. Thus yayin, fermented wine, is spoken of negatively much more often that it is positively.

On the negative side, first of all, are the stories in which fermented wine produces bad results. Not many (if any) historical narratives in the Old Testament mention a beneficial outcome from the use of wine, but several end disastrously: the drunkenness of Noah (Gen 9:21); Lot (Gen 19:32-35); Nabal (1 Sam 25:36, 37); Amnon (2 Sam 13:28); Belshazzar (Dan 5:1-3); and Ahasuerus (Esth 1:1-10), for example. Isaiah (51:21); Jeremiah (23:9); Hosea (4:11; 7:5); Joel (1:5); and Habbakuk (2:15) are among the Bible prophets who point out the ill effects, both physical and moral, which intoxicating wine produces.

Proverbs 23:29-35 describes wine's immediate physical effects (red eyes and blurred vision), its immediate social effects (strife and wounds), as well as the long-term results (woe and sorrow). Elsewhere, the book of Proverbs refers to wine as producing poverty (21:17) and violence (4:17). Isaiah adds that it deceives the mind (28:7), inflames a person, and leads to forgetfulness of God (5:11, 12).

Those texts which point to certain useful functions of wine should not be overlooked, but they should be placed in perspective. Three texts (Ps 104:15; Eccl 9:7; 10:19) mention that wine can make the heart glad and bring cheer. This indicates an awareness of the immediate physiological effects of alcohol, but these texts need to be placed along side the many other Bible statements mentioning its nonbeneficial long-term results.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 and 10:19 might superficially appear to give approval for indulging in alcohol. In a bit of ancient philosophy, Ecclesiastes 9:7 says, "Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do." It is a description of the author's search for those things that bring meaning in life. This text is pointing out that man should be content with certain common duties of life-including eating and drinking, even wine. However, the book ends with the author's finding a greater good to provide meaning in life-that man should fear God and keep His commandments (chapter 12:13). All the other experiences in which the author tries to find meaning fade in significance beside this.

At least seven other Bible texts which appear to speak favorably of yayin do so merely by means of comparison; they are not speaking directly about wine itself. For example, the Song of Solomon uses a comparison with wine four times (1:2, 4; 4:10; and 7:9) to bring out the beloved's beauty. Hosea 14:7 uses the fragrance of wine from Lebanon as a comparison. Proverbs 9:5, 6 uses wine figuratively in talking about the "banquet of life" that wisdom provides. Amos 9:14 and Zechariah 10:7 use the merriment that wine creates as a figure of how God's people will rejoice at the time of His final victory.

Wine was also used as a drink offering in the temple service, just as we see that beer was used in the presentation of delayed tithe. These drink offerings were poured out beside the altar; they were not drunk by the priests.

Thus most of the texts which mention wine favorably actually use it figuratively in comparisons. A few speak of its immediate physiological effects. But by far the majority describe its detrimental results-such as wicked acts committed in connection with drinking wine.

Isaiah, for example, associates wine with the taking of bribes(5:22, 23). Amos combines wine with profaning sacred things (2:8 ).

In summary, the writers of the Old Testament raise four indictments against drinking wine. First, they recognize its immediate adverse physical effects-redness of the eyes, blurring of vision, staggering, and drunkenness in general. Second, they recognize its long-term moral effects-various kinds of immoral and unethical behavior along with the social results of such actions. Third, they identify particular instances of such behavior and connect them with specific persons. Fourth, because of its effects, they prohibit certain classes and specific individuals from drinking any wine.

In contrast to this large negative picture, about the only positive images the Bible gives of alcohol are three texts that note alcohol can produce a state of levity (certainly a valid physiological observation). The Bible writers also occasionally use wine to draw some favorable comparisons in figures of speech. (Yet they also use wine to symbolize some unfavorable comparisons as well. See the "wine of wrath" in Psalm 75:8 and Jeremiah 25:15).

How then should we personally relate to alcohol in view of the overall picture given in the Old Testament? If one takes the whole picture into account and evaluates all the evidence, the most reasonable conclusion is that the only safe course is complete abstinence from alcohol in any form- especially in this generation where we have many other choices of beverages.

My conclusion is that any preacher who advocates anything other than the Church of God position of total abstinence is dangerously directing souls toward bondage and perhaps encouraging them toward the Lake of Fire.

My opinion is that since we don't need alcoholic beverages and there is much more hurt, pain, suffering, loss, destruction and sin associated with it in the Bible as well in real life experiences than there is joy, peace, righteousness and godliness - the responsible decision is to leave it alone and always reach for a better choice." (spartanfan)


I have read that before spartanfan.

Is drinking wine a sin?
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Post Re: People don't "need" wine...... spartanfan
bradfreeman wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
You don't need to drink wine. There are a lot of negatives to it. Anything positive it has to offer can be gained through other sources that don't have any negatives associated with them. Wine in our culture is not necessary while many would say it was necessary to put some in water in the first century in Israel to kill some bacteria and organisms that were harmful. It just doesn't relate the same way to our present day American culture. It is not necessary and the wise choice is total abstinence. You simply can't successfully argue against that line of reasoning. We as a nation would be better off if we did not have any alcoholic beverages sold and consumed in our country. Simple. A cave man could understand that.


We all consume items we "don't need to" consume. The list is long.
Is that a reason to exclude someone from membership/leadership/fellowship?

Are there places in the Bible where specific foods are strictly prohibited? Pork, shellfish.

Is pork the "wise choice"? Would we be "better off" without it? Are there negatives associated with it? Is it "necessary"?

Do you think the COG should adopt a "total abstinence" position toward pork as a condition of membership/leadership?

Do you refuse to sit with people who eat pork?

Do you think the COG should exclude people from membership/leadership, ostracize people ( "I would not sit around with you while you drink alcoholic beverages" ) for not making the "wise choice", doing something "not necessary", or consuming something they'd be "better off" without?

There is, quite simply, a religious stigma attached to alcohol.
There isn't one attached to bacon.


It's so funny to me that when you guys are "whipped" you divert from the sole issue being discussed to other issues. We are talking about whether or not the position of total abstinence from alcohol is the best for all and wisest position for a Christian to take. Is it the better choice? Is it the best example to our children? Would it overall be in the best interests of our nation if we adopted it as policy and didn't sell alcoholic beverages? Is it in the best interests of the church to promote life and not something that is a big part of America's culture of death?

You are simply whipped on this but you like to drink so you rise up and talk about bacon and twinkees. Really - is that all you got? Then you're whipped worse than the cream in the twinkees. You're fried more than the bacon. You just like your wine so you want to drink it even though it is very immature and unwise for a Christian to do so. What will you counter with - the curse of coffee or the deceitfulness of donuts? Admit it - even though the alcohol in wine is bad for you - you just enjoy drinking it so you're going to drink it despite the curse it brings upon our country. I have a better way to encourage you in - choose life and not those things promoted by the culture of death. Since you have so much liberty - why not use it to choose life and not for an occasion unto the flesh?

Galatians 5:13 (New International Version), "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."
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Post Re: People don't "need" wine...... Dave Dorsey
spartanfan wrote:
Would it overall be in the best interests of our nation if we adopted it as policy and didn't sell alcoholic beverages?

Well, this is one thing we've actually tried, so we don't have to speak in hypotheticals.

Prohibition created organized crime, resulted in the profound corruption of law enforcement and the justice system, cost an enormous amount of money, and during prohibition the per capita consumption of alcohol actually increased, especially for women and children (though this was not necessarily caused by prohibition).

So the answer to that question is "no".
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8/19/15 10:20 am


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Post Re: People don't "need" wine...... spartanfan
Dave Dorsey wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
Would it overall be in the best interests of our nation if we adopted it as policy and didn't sell alcoholic beverages?

Well, this is one thing we've actually tried, so we don't have to speak in hypotheticals.

Prohibition created organized crime, resulted in the profound corruption of law enforcement and the justice system, cost an enormous amount of money, and during prohibition the per capita consumption of alcohol actually increased, especially for women and children (though this was not necessarily caused by prohibition).

So the answer to that question is "no".


Seriously? Since organized crime originated in the 1800's and prohibition was in the 1920's - prohibition cannot be credited with the creation of organized crime in America. You could say that it helped its development and solidified groups like the Mafia but you can't say it created it. And I doubt you think that everything that organized crime profited from should be legalized (prostitution, cocaine, porno,hijacking cargo trucks, robbing goods, committing bankruptcy fraud, insurance fraud or stock fraud -inside trading, car theft, art theft, bank robbery, burglary, jewelry theft, computer hacking, credit card fraud, economic espionage, embezzlement, identity theft, securities fraud, rigging public projects, counterfeiting money, and providing immigrant workers to avoid taxes. loansharking of money at very high interest rates, assassination, blackmailing, bombings, bookmaking and illegal gambling, confidence tricks, copyright infringement, counterfeiting of intellectual property, fencing, kidnapping, smuggling, drug trafficking, arms trafficking, oil smuggling, antiquities smuggling, organ trafficking, contract killing, identity document forgery, money laundering, point shaving, price fixing, illegal dumping of toxic waste, illegal trading of nuclear materials, military equipment smuggling, nuclear weapons smuggling, passport fraud, providing illegal immigration and cheap labor, people smuggling, trading in endangered species, and trafficking in human beings, racketeering activities, such as skimming casinos, setting up monopolies in industries such as garbage collecting, construction and cement pouring, bid rigging, etc).

Do you want to legalize all of the garbage that has led to the increase in organized crime or just the stuff you enjoy?

In 2013, 88,009 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women) died from alcohol-related causes, making it the third leading preventable cause of death in the United States.
In 2013, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 10,076 deaths (30.8 percent of overall driving fatalities).

So - I think any reasonable person nowadays would have to say that our nation would be better off if people drank something besides alcoholic beverages. And as Christians a good example would be for us to lead the way. That is both lawful and expedient. That is righteous and wise.
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8/19/15 12:16 pm


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Post Re: People don't "need" wine...... bradfreeman
spartanfan wrote:
Is it the better choice?


No. It wasn't for Jesus, the apostles and the early church either.

Quote:
Is it the best example to our children?


When it comes to wine, moderation is the best and biblical answer.

Quote:
Would it overall be in the best interests of our nation if we adopted it as policy and didn't sell alcoholic beverages?


No.

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Is it in the best interests of the church to promote life and not something that is a big part of America's culture of death?


I thought we were discussing wine. Laughing

For the records, I'm pro-life.
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8/19/15 12:36 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
What if a feller don't drink wine, but just keeps some bottles around the home for ornament or decoration? Acts-pert Poster
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8/19/15 12:46 pm


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